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Uber banned from operating in Indian capital after rape accusation

358 points by cahitonur 12y ago

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markogrady 12y ago
Ive recently been in Cape Town and people recommended using Uber because you can see the feed back info about the driver and the official cabs were quite dodgy.
- bdcravens 12y ago
  Often the driver is someone other than the official Uber driver, so you lose that advantage.
snlacks 12y ago
So, I'm not a Uber fan, but I get the feeling this is India deflecting a couple of other underlying issues and placing blame. Sooner or later they have to face the issue head on, because scapegoating gets old.
- TheHypnotist 12y ago
  Agreed. It's also not as if these sexual assault cases are not well documented already. I wonder what Uber will say about this.
  - atonse 12y ago
    So what then, an Uber customer would have to just say "yeah ok rapes happen so let me keep taking Uber"? The point is, Uber is claiming to be better than cabbies in that they screen drivers, etc. Clearly they aren't doing anything of the sort. So they are as unsafe as taking any other cab.
    - TheHypnotist 12y ago
      Well, as it's been pointed out there is a stronger underlying issue as to Uber's ban than simply a rape. But I don't really understand your point anyway.
    - snlacks 12y ago
      I did not say that Uber doesn't have issues to address, I said that the Indian government has underlying issues, and can't scapegoat forever. Not every situation in life has clear sides of "good guys" and "bad guys" or who's "to blame." Cause is a moving bar, and has different value depending what we are talking about causing. Uber causes it's passengers to be in danger by not ensuring the people behind the wheel. India on the other hand has a history of not punishing rapists. The guy gets acquitted of rape, because rape is too hard to prove under Indian law and because the juries are biased. edit: updated spelling
      - atonse 12y ago
        I'm not arguing about the scapegoating or anything. I'm just saying that Uber markets itself as "we don't hire those creeps" - but it sounds like they ARE hiring those creeps. So what's the point of using Uber in Delhi when you are as unsafe as you would be in a regular taxicab? What's the value proposition of Uber in that case? Just the convenience of using the app?
        snlacks 12y ago
        I don't like Uber, I do like the idea of competition. I think the draw is upfront pricing? But I don't know, I've horror stories about that too.
    - tomjen3 12y ago
      Well Uber might still be the safest choice. I can't imagine Indian taxies being very safe in the first place.
      - rvn1045 12y ago
- dhm 12y ago
  I guess the way to approach it would be to compare the statistics of sexual assault by driver of taxi or similar travel for hire with the statistics we see in the case of Uber and try to discern whether they are meaningfully different.
- notjackma 12y ago
  An underlying issue like the Bhopal Disaster? http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/06/photos-bhopal-india-union-carbide-sanjay-verma-pesticides-explosion http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/06/photos-bhopal...
  - jtreminio 12y ago
    What's this got to do with the topic on hand?
- known 12y ago
  Rape is a hate crime in India http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/as-india-responds-to-latest-rapes-the-unanswered-question-is-why/ http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/as-india-responds-...
n0body 12y ago
i'm not sure why it's Uber's fault. in the uk, Uber drivers are all registered taxi drivers, because of regulations. it's not Uber's fault that the indian market is not as strictly regulated, and that one of their drivers did this. Not that i'm saying it's ok, it's not. but uber seems to be catching a lot of flak for things they haven't done. sure they probably could have done more to prevent it, but so could the government. companies always tend to the minimum required by law, it's cheaper that way and the amount of rape happening in india is crazy, the government needs to do something about that, something more than blaming uber. what's the point in the state if it can't even protect it's people?
- RealGeek 12y ago
  Uber hired drivers in India who does not even have a valid Delhi Transport commercial driver license required for all cab drivers in Delhi. Edit: > and the amount of rape happening in india is crazy, the government needs to do something about that, something more than blaming uber. Do you know that more women are raped every year in UK & US than in India? You hear a lot more about rapes in India because Indians are more outraged towards rape than Americans & British. Rate per 100,000 population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_statistics_by_country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_statist... United Kingdom (England and Wales): 28.8 United States of America : 27.3 According to some surveys, 20% to 25% girls on American colleges campuses suffer sexual assault.
  - edgyswingset 12y ago
    One of the issues in India right now is non-compliance by the police. Those statistics, while certainly valid for cases we can prove, don't tell the whole story.
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    > Do you know that more women are raped every year in UK & US than in India? Bullshit. Your link states "does not include cases of rape which go unreported, which are not recorded, and does not account for differing definitions between countries". http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/07/indias-rape-problem-is-also-a-police-problem/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/07... > Three-fourths of the perpetrators of India's 24,206 rapes in 2011 are still at large, and that's not even including the rapes that go unreported, which are thought to be the majority of cases. The women and girls who do report being raped can sometimes face antipathy or outright hostility from police.
morekozhambu 12y ago
UBER Fail..!!
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austenallred 12y ago
This is really weird... I have refreshed a couple times and watched some anti-uber comments appear
- austenallred 12y ago
  Shoot, meant to say disappear
RealGeek 12y ago
Uber is not being banned just because of this rape incident. Uber did not following Indian laws & Delhi transport regulations, and operated illegally under the radar. Before this incident, Delhi Government was not aware about how Uber operated. This incident prompted Indian authorities to investigate the operations of Uber. Uber's stance is that we are not a taxi company, we are an app company; so we do not need to follow transportation laws. Uber is so secretive in India that the only way users can contact Uber is through Twitter. They don't provide any phone number, email or address. Moreover, Delhi police had to struggle to get in touch with Uber. They called an Uber cab using the App, and asked the driver to take them to Uber's office. When they reached office, it was almost empty. There was nobody who had any information about what is going on. Uber claims they have a driver screening process, but it seems they skip through the due diligence process in India to save few bucks. https://www.uber.com/safety https://www.uber.com/safety "Uber is committed to connecting you to the safest ride on the road" Driver Screening: http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening which includes: Criteria for drivers to pass through Uber’s screening, going back seven years: - No DUI or other drug related driving violations or severe infractions* - No Hit and Runs - No fatal accidents - No history of reckless driving - No violent crimes - No sexual offenses - No gun related violations - No resisting/evading arrest - No driving without insurance or suspended license charge in the past 3 years Unfortunately, Uber does not perform this due diligence while recruiting drivers in India. The alleged driver had previously served 7 months in prison for rape charges, that didn't stop Uber from recruiting him.
- GrinningFool 12y ago
  No sexual offenses From the article: "Uber, which had employed the driver even though he had been arrested on allegations of sexual assault three years ago" THe implication there is that he had not been convicted of any offense - which means no sexual offense was [in the eyes of the law...] committed. I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand yeah, he was arrested for it and convicted or not, that's probably a risk Uber shouldn't be taking. The other side of that an accusation or suspicion isn't a reasonable basis on which to ruin someone's employability.
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- maxerickson 12y ago
  This article discusses a passenger getting raped by a driver working for Uber. It does not discuss a female taxi driver.
plinkplonk 12y ago
Fwiw the story is still unfolding. Some parts of the media are reporting that the driver had a "character certificate" from an Assistant Police Commissioner. It is unclear (as of writing this) how legally valid (or even genuine) that is. Could be photoshopped for all we know. (the media can be quite incompetent and report rumors as truth and vice versa) Fwiw http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Delhi-police-had-issued-character-certificate-to-Uber-cab-driver-in-August/articleshow/45412700.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Delhi-police-h... This is in someways the direct opposite of what the media was reporting so far. It will all shake out in the coming days/weeks. Meanwhile Uber remains banned in Delhi (imo a good thing. The management is pretty scummy and they and Uber's operating procedures could use some sunlight). The government and the police will come under massive media scrutiny (imo, even better.) It is now a full fledged media circus here, with politicians posturing,citizens screaming, parties of different ideologies protesting etc. Elections are due in Delhi in February, and safety (or lack of it) for women in Delhi is an issue that voters pay attention to, so the above is all par for the course. Again,just fwiw.
- RealGeek 12y ago
  Delhi police is now saying that the certificate is forged.
- _jgdh 12y ago
  I think it would be helpful if we avoided linking to the Times of India. Its a pretty low-quality source of news, similar to The Sun in the UK.
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- RealGeek 12y ago
  I have been using cab services safer, convenient and cheaper than Uber in Delhi
  - sgarg26 12y ago
    Like a normal cab that you hail from the street?
    - RealGeek 12y ago
      You can do that, and also call them on phone, website & app. Here is an Indian cab company which follows laws & regulations: http://www.merucabs.com http://www.merucabs.com
totony 12y ago
If the man was aquitted, why is background check even mentionned? You can't refuse someone because he was accused of something, right? That'd be very discriminatory
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  You can actually hire (or not hire) anyone you want. Background checks can find all sorts of things, most of which can be used against you. Only a few classes are protected, and 'accused of crime' isn't one of them.
  - totony 12y ago
    I don't know specifics about Indian law, but in Canada, any "personal caracteristic" (varies on a province basis) is protected under the charter. This is defined as "individual characteristics that are permanent or difficult to change, such as race, colour, sex, ethnic origin or disability."*. Accusation record seems to fit that description. Therefore, it would be illegal for someone to refuse someone because of this. Source: http://www.cdpdj.qc.ca/en/pages/lexique.aspx#personal-characteristic http://www.cdpdj.qc.ca/en/pages/lexique.aspx#personal-charac...
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      I wonder if 'difficult to change' meant involuntary, like something you were born with. Your criminal record is by definition voluntary. You did something; it was recorded.
auxon0 12y ago
So I guess they're going to ban public transportation, restaurants, public places, etc... as well, due to all the rape happening there.
ignoramous 12y ago
I've said it elsewhere too [0], and I say it again... There's no doubt that Uber is on a free ride in India. If they can bully their way in the US, and not care about law and regulations there, then they have absolutely nothing to worry about in India. The law enforcement is weak, to say the least. * Uber's customer service is a disgrace. I've tried contacting them 4 times for different issues ranging from bugs in their app to getting incorrectly charged for toll fees. Never got a response, despite countless followups. * They do NOT really hire the drivers... they are in fact hiring "companies" that employs the drivers. Once I had someone else pick me up. The driver was using someone else's phone and cab that was registered to Uber. He told me the "Uber" driver was on a leave, and that he was deputizing on-behalf of him. And that he didn't really work for Uber, but for the "owner of the car" I could have cancelled the ride, but then Uber would have charged me 150 Rupees ($3) cancellation fee. And I didn't want to do anything with Uber's customer service, and I was kind of certain that I wouldn't get my money back. * They're a faceless organization and that's unacceptable for something that involves physical contact with real strangers. * They have their priorities mixed up. Instead of focusing on their "safety claims" (which they pitch as a distinguish-er) they are relentlessly focused on achieving the network affect that'd propel their business. I'm firmly in the camp that believes that Uber used some of the funding $$$ in bribing the officials here to accelerate their growth (in terms of number of cities they operate in) in this country without any review. The trajectory with Uber is very similar to how many a telecom providers made a killing during the telecom-boom in India. The government is set to have lost upto INR 300,000,000,000 [1] when a corrupt minister sold air-waves for cheaper prices. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8708545 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8708545 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2G_spectrum_scam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2G_spectrum_scam
- jessaustin 12y ago
  How do you pay Uber in India? Did you make a deposit, or is this on a credit card? I don't know the credit card rules in India, but in USA there's no way I would have ended up paying Uber's self-serving "fine".
  - adhipg 12y ago
Marazan 12y ago
I am shocked, shocked that an unlicensed taxi firm has problems with its drivers.
- 001sky 12y ago
  Rumor has it the public transportation in India is kinds unsafe too.
dreamweapon 12y ago
From the very beginning, Uber has been fiercely proud of its eschewance of local regulations; and it's business model has always been, in a nutshell, about maximizing profit while offloading risk. So while I have no doubt that Travis is genuinely horrified by what happened, he shouldn't be in the least bit surprised, either.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
suprgeek 12y ago
Their troubles in India may get bigger: The Indian Govt. is thinking about banning them all across India [1] Can't come soon enough for a company that heavily advertised itself as being the Safer option in India and conveniently actually skipped the background verification part of the process. Then the asshat CEO put the entire blame on the "System" in a finger pointing blog post. "Move fast and Break things" Indeed. [1] http://indianexpress.com/article/india/crime/delhi-rape-govt-mulls-banning-uber-cab-services-across-india/ http://indianexpress.com/article/india/crime/delhi-rape-govt...
- tomjen3 12y ago
  Not an Indian, but isn't mostly a matter of whom you have to bribe and how much?
  - ignoramous 12y ago
    Exactly. Threatening to ban Uber can mean only one thing-- The law-makers need a fund raiser too-- now that Uber is a $40 billion company.
known 12y ago
Rape fear keeps US students out of India: Nancy Powell http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rape-fear-keeps-US-students-out-of-India-Nancy-Powell/articleshow/26059607.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rape-fear-keeps-US-...
RyanMcGreal 12y ago
Watching the Uber saga unfold has been a fascinating time-lapse into how and why industries become regulated in the first place. It's fashionable to decry calcified organizations that refuse to adapt to change, but we regulate industries in response to market failures, and Uber's approach has been to toss out the the baby with the bathwater.
- mrschwabe 12y ago
  Or another point of view is that this 'saga' has been caused by a political vendetta against Uber - a common problem for startups like Uber and Tesla who are attempting to scale and share their innovations with the world.
  - bluishgreen 12y ago
    I see what you did there, mentioning uber and tesla in the same sentence.
krisgenre 12y ago
This combined with their app's shady activities ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8660336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8660336 ), it does seem like a very good idea to stop using it.
- makeramen 12y ago
  If you read any of the technical analysis, those claims are clearly unfounded and the hacker doesn't even understand how REST works: http://thenextweb.com/apps/2014/11/27/ubers-app-malware-despite-may-read/ http://thenextweb.com/apps/2014/11/27/ubers-app-malware-desp... As an Android developer, the root and vulnerability reporting behavior is pretty standard for bug tracking, and in Uber's case fraud prevention as well.
  - krisgenre 12y ago
    Thanks for pointing it out. I should make a mental note of not to just go by the top comments.
jessaustin 12y ago
It seems like every time I get tempted to have an ounce of sympathy for Uber, something like this comes up to disabuse me of that. This morning's sympathy was inspired by local government shenanigans. They had some city-manager jackhole on the radio explaining that they had informed Uber back in July that they would be considering Uber's business, and furthermore they now plan to do that consideration at the February city council meeting. Shameless!
sriramk 12y ago
I think Uber is being unfairly maligned here - too long for a comment, long piece at https://medium.com/@sriramk/in-defense-of-uber-in-india-f81c4c6267f2 https://medium.com/@sriramk/in-defense-of-uber-in-india-f81c.... tldr: Uber just can't do the same checks it does in the US in other parts of the world which don't have records. And even though it did actually get the right certificate from the cops in this case, they should have thought of doing more.
- dnautics 12y ago
  "Delhi has thousands of taxi drivers, cab companies, private transport vehicles — no one bothers asking for any sort of real background check for anyone driving these things. I have friends who own cab companies — their “driver check” is asking the driver whether he has a license." I am no fan of uber (although I drive for them, but mostly their competitor, which I prefer). But I think this comment is apt.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  Then the logical strategy is not to operate in a market where your brand is at severe risk of being tarnished.
  - simplekoala 12y ago
    or don't accept status quo. Improve the current system by 10X and solve real problems and position yourself as a great company.
- simplekoala 12y ago
  As a top technology company, Uber should have had some basic measures to ensure safety of their rides. In this specific case, the driver turned off the GPS, and took a detour. At the very least, these incidents should have triggered alerts on their internal monitoring systems. And, assuming they had an agreement with cellular service providers for public safety, they could have tracked of the location of the female rider through her cellphone, and dispatched cops to that location. Precisely for the reasons you mentioned in your blog post about how things can be gamed in India through bribes, Uber should have been careful about expanding in India. Asking the drivers to provide a conduct certificate in a corrupt country like India is a "cover your ass" move to precisely brandish this certificate and say - "Hey, see, we did our homework. It is not our fault" in situations like this. This was an opportunity for them to raise the bar. This is a leadership failure. They were too eager to just expand overseas. They could have used technology to mitigate such risks in the "rape capital" of India (world?). Some things I think they can do as a technology company in India - Install custom GPS trackers which cannot be turned off manually on the cars. - Install a special audio/video cam in the car, and automatic audio/video feed analysis for distress screams, struggle. - Automatic algorithmic tracking of the car route/de-tours Like I said, they had a golden opportunity to showcase how technology could be used to mitigate the risk of such incidents in Delhi, and used it in their marketing. They could have raised the bar. They could have shown how it is done. They could have made the world safer and better. This is what separates the great from the good. Larry Page calls them Moonshots. Uber had the resources to do it. They played the "CYA" game. They should take responsibility. They could have taken something and made it 10X better. That's what great companies do.
Eleutheria 12y ago
Let me see... If I buy a gun and shoot you, the government will ban gun manufacturers? If I buy a baseball bat and smash your skull, the govt will ban all sports? If I buy a potato and stick it in your throat and you die, the govt will ban agriculture? If I offer you a ride (free or for a fee) and then decide to rape you and bury you in a forest, the govt will ban auto makers? How does that make sense?
- chaosmonkey 12y ago
  If the gun manufacturer claimed that they have verified that guns don't kill. http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening
- RealGeek 12y ago
  India is not banning cars or taxis on the road. They are saying that Uber shall not operate until they get permits and comply with the law. If the law requires you to go through a background check and obtain a license to buy a gun; but you don't get a license, you buy a gun and then shoot someone. Clearly, you would be liable for the crime.
tn13 12y ago
Few points worth noting - Taxi business is heavily regulated in India and anything like Uber is likely to be illegal. - India does not have any consolidated crime database. Background verification generally means asking the person to get a certificate from local police station. (Which anyone can get by paying a bribe). I am surprised that Uber was actually operating in India. Clearly they were staying under the radar and as usual the government officials were too incompetent to understand what Uber is. I think in this case Uber is clearly liable for a civil suite and must compensate the victim for lack of due diligence and fraud.
simplekoala 12y ago
Hmmm..shouldn't Uber banned in whole of India instead of just Delhi, till the Govt of India figures out how to allow Uber to operate with better safety measures.
hero454545 12y ago
This article is 5 hours old, has 314 points is one rank behind an article that's six hours hold with 23 points right now. HN users certainly love to flag anything that's critical of Uber.
tn13 12y ago
Banned is simply not acceptable. They should also be charged for fraud, making false promises about their services to their customers which got one lady raped.
known 12y ago
Uber failed to bribe appropriate Indian politicians through relevant channels. http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-most-corrupt-while-doing-business-abroad.htm http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-...

358 points by cahitonur 12y ago

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Ive recently been in Cape Town and people recommended using Uber because you can see the feed back info about the driver and the official cabs were quite dodgy.

bdcravens 12y ago
Often the driver is someone other than the official Uber driver, so you lose that advantage.

snlacks 12y ago

So, I'm not a Uber fan, but I get the feeling this is India deflecting a couple of other underlying issues and placing blame. Sooner or later they have to face the issue head on, because scapegoating gets old.

TheHypnotist 12y ago
Agreed. It's also not as if these sexual assault cases are not well documented already. I wonder what Uber will say about this.
- atonse 12y ago
  So what then, an Uber customer would have to just say "yeah ok rapes happen so let me keep taking Uber"? The point is, Uber is claiming to be better than cabbies in that they screen drivers, etc. Clearly they aren't doing anything of the sort. So they are as unsafe as taking any other cab.
  - TheHypnotist 12y ago
    Well, as it's been pointed out there is a stronger underlying issue as to Uber's ban than simply a rape. But I don't really understand your point anyway.
  - snlacks 12y ago
    I did not say that Uber doesn't have issues to address, I said that the Indian government has underlying issues, and can't scapegoat forever. Not every situation in life has clear sides of "good guys" and "bad guys" or who's "to blame." Cause is a moving bar, and has different value depending what we are talking about causing. Uber causes it's passengers to be in danger by not ensuring the people behind the wheel. India on the other hand has a history of not punishing rapists. The guy gets acquitted of rape, because rape is too hard to prove under Indian law and because the juries are biased. edit: updated spelling
    - atonse 12y ago
      I'm not arguing about the scapegoating or anything. I'm just saying that Uber markets itself as "we don't hire those creeps" - but it sounds like they ARE hiring those creeps. So what's the point of using Uber in Delhi when you are as unsafe as you would be in a regular taxicab? What's the value proposition of Uber in that case? Just the convenience of using the app?
      - snlacks 12y ago
        I don't like Uber, I do like the idea of competition. I think the draw is upfront pricing? But I don't know, I've horror stories about that too.
  - tomjen3 12y ago
    Well Uber might still be the safest choice. I can't imagine Indian taxies being very safe in the first place.
    - rvn1045 12y ago
dhm 12y ago
I guess the way to approach it would be to compare the statistics of sexual assault by driver of taxi or similar travel for hire with the statistics we see in the case of Uber and try to discern whether they are meaningfully different.
notjackma 12y ago
An underlying issue like the Bhopal Disaster? http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/06/photos-bhopal-india-union-carbide-sanjay-verma-pesticides-explosion http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/06/photos-bhopal...
- jtreminio 12y ago
  What's this got to do with the topic on hand?
known 12y ago
Rape is a hate crime in India http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/as-india-responds-to-latest-rapes-the-unanswered-question-is-why/ http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/as-india-responds-...

n0body 12y ago

i'm not sure why it's Uber's fault. in the uk, Uber drivers are all registered taxi drivers, because of regulations. it's not Uber's fault that the indian market is not as strictly regulated, and that one of their drivers did this. Not that i'm saying it's ok, it's not. but uber seems to be catching a lot of flak for things they haven't done. sure they probably could have done more to prevent it, but so could the government. companies always tend to the minimum required by law, it's cheaper that way and the amount of rape happening in india is crazy, the government needs to do something about that, something more than blaming uber. what's the point in the state if it can't even protect it's people?

RealGeek 12y ago
Uber hired drivers in India who does not even have a valid Delhi Transport commercial driver license required for all cab drivers in Delhi. Edit: > and the amount of rape happening in india is crazy, the government needs to do something about that, something more than blaming uber. Do you know that more women are raped every year in UK & US than in India? You hear a lot more about rapes in India because Indians are more outraged towards rape than Americans & British. Rate per 100,000 population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_statistics_by_country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_statist... United Kingdom (England and Wales): 28.8 United States of America : 27.3 According to some surveys, 20% to 25% girls on American colleges campuses suffer sexual assault.
- edgyswingset 12y ago
  One of the issues in India right now is non-compliance by the police. Those statistics, while certainly valid for cases we can prove, don't tell the whole story.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  > Do you know that more women are raped every year in UK & US than in India? Bullshit. Your link states "does not include cases of rape which go unreported, which are not recorded, and does not account for differing definitions between countries". http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/07/indias-rape-problem-is-also-a-police-problem/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/07... > Three-fourths of the perpetrators of India's 24,206 rapes in 2011 are still at large, and that's not even including the rapes that go unreported, which are thought to be the majority of cases. The women and girls who do report being raped can sometimes face antipathy or outright hostility from police.

morekozhambu 12y ago

UBER Fail..!!

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

austenallred 12y ago

This is really weird... I have refreshed a couple times and watched some anti-uber comments appear

austenallred 12y ago
Shoot, meant to say disappear

RealGeek 12y ago

Uber is not being banned just because of this rape incident. Uber did not following Indian laws & Delhi transport regulations, and operated illegally under the radar. Before this incident, Delhi Government was not aware about how Uber operated. This incident prompted Indian authorities to investigate the operations of Uber. Uber's stance is that we are not a taxi company, we are an app company; so we do not need to follow transportation laws. Uber is so secretive in India that the only way users can contact Uber is through Twitter. They don't provide any phone number, email or address. Moreover, Delhi police had to struggle to get in touch with Uber. They called an Uber cab using the App, and asked the driver to take them to Uber's office. When they reached office, it was almost empty. There was nobody who had any information about what is going on. Uber claims they have a driver screening process, but it seems they skip through the due diligence process in India to save few bucks. https://www.uber.com/safety https://www.uber.com/safety "Uber is committed to connecting you to the safest ride on the road" Driver Screening: http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening which includes: Criteria for drivers to pass through Uber’s screening, going back seven years: - No DUI or other drug related driving violations or severe infractions* - No Hit and Runs - No fatal accidents - No history of reckless driving - No violent crimes - No sexual offenses - No gun related violations - No resisting/evading arrest - No driving without insurance or suspended license charge in the past 3 years Unfortunately, Uber does not perform this due diligence while recruiting drivers in India. The alleged driver had previously served 7 months in prison for rape charges, that didn't stop Uber from recruiting him.

GrinningFool 12y ago
No sexual offenses From the article: "Uber, which had employed the driver even though he had been arrested on allegations of sexual assault three years ago" THe implication there is that he had not been convicted of any offense - which means no sexual offense was [in the eyes of the law...] committed. I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand yeah, he was arrested for it and convicted or not, that's probably a risk Uber shouldn't be taking. The other side of that an accusation or suspicion isn't a reasonable basis on which to ruin someone's employability.
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maxerickson 12y ago
This article discusses a passenger getting raped by a driver working for Uber. It does not discuss a female taxi driver.

plinkplonk 12y ago

Fwiw the story is still unfolding. Some parts of the media are reporting that the driver had a "character certificate" from an Assistant Police Commissioner. It is unclear (as of writing this) how legally valid (or even genuine) that is. Could be photoshopped for all we know. (the media can be quite incompetent and report rumors as truth and vice versa) Fwiw http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Delhi-police-had-issued-character-certificate-to-Uber-cab-driver-in-August/articleshow/45412700.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Delhi-police-h... This is in someways the direct opposite of what the media was reporting so far. It will all shake out in the coming days/weeks. Meanwhile Uber remains banned in Delhi (imo a good thing. The management is pretty scummy and they and Uber's operating procedures could use some sunlight). The government and the police will come under massive media scrutiny (imo, even better.) It is now a full fledged media circus here, with politicians posturing,citizens screaming, parties of different ideologies protesting etc. Elections are due in Delhi in February, and safety (or lack of it) for women in Delhi is an issue that voters pay attention to, so the above is all par for the course. Again,just fwiw.

RealGeek 12y ago
Delhi police is now saying that the certificate is forged.
_jgdh 12y ago
I think it would be helpful if we avoided linking to the Times of India. Its a pretty low-quality source of news, similar to The Sun in the UK.

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RealGeek 12y ago
I have been using cab services safer, convenient and cheaper than Uber in Delhi
- sgarg26 12y ago
  Like a normal cab that you hail from the street?
  - RealGeek 12y ago
    You can do that, and also call them on phone, website & app. Here is an Indian cab company which follows laws & regulations: http://www.merucabs.com http://www.merucabs.com

totony 12y ago

If the man was aquitted, why is background check even mentionned? You can't refuse someone because he was accused of something, right? That'd be very discriminatory

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
You can actually hire (or not hire) anyone you want. Background checks can find all sorts of things, most of which can be used against you. Only a few classes are protected, and 'accused of crime' isn't one of them.
- totony 12y ago
  I don't know specifics about Indian law, but in Canada, any "personal caracteristic" (varies on a province basis) is protected under the charter. This is defined as "individual characteristics that are permanent or difficult to change, such as race, colour, sex, ethnic origin or disability."*. Accusation record seems to fit that description. Therefore, it would be illegal for someone to refuse someone because of this. Source: http://www.cdpdj.qc.ca/en/pages/lexique.aspx#personal-characteristic http://www.cdpdj.qc.ca/en/pages/lexique.aspx#personal-charac...
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    I wonder if 'difficult to change' meant involuntary, like something you were born with. Your criminal record is by definition voluntary. You did something; it was recorded.

auxon0 12y ago

So I guess they're going to ban public transportation, restaurants, public places, etc... as well, due to all the rape happening there.

ignoramous 12y ago

I've said it elsewhere too [0], and I say it again... There's no doubt that Uber is on a free ride in India. If they can bully their way in the US, and not care about law and regulations there, then they have absolutely nothing to worry about in India. The law enforcement is weak, to say the least. * Uber's customer service is a disgrace. I've tried contacting them 4 times for different issues ranging from bugs in their app to getting incorrectly charged for toll fees. Never got a response, despite countless followups. * They do NOT really hire the drivers... they are in fact hiring "companies" that employs the drivers. Once I had someone else pick me up. The driver was using someone else's phone and cab that was registered to Uber. He told me the "Uber" driver was on a leave, and that he was deputizing on-behalf of him. And that he didn't really work for Uber, but for the "owner of the car" I could have cancelled the ride, but then Uber would have charged me 150 Rupees ($3) cancellation fee. And I didn't want to do anything with Uber's customer service, and I was kind of certain that I wouldn't get my money back. * They're a faceless organization and that's unacceptable for something that involves physical contact with real strangers. * They have their priorities mixed up. Instead of focusing on their "safety claims" (which they pitch as a distinguish-er) they are relentlessly focused on achieving the network affect that'd propel their business. I'm firmly in the camp that believes that Uber used some of the funding $$$ in bribing the officials here to accelerate their growth (in terms of number of cities they operate in) in this country without any review. The trajectory with Uber is very similar to how many a telecom providers made a killing during the telecom-boom in India. The government is set to have lost upto INR 300,000,000,000 [1] when a corrupt minister sold air-waves for cheaper prices. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8708545 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8708545 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2G_spectrum_scam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2G_spectrum_scam

jessaustin 12y ago
How do you pay Uber in India? Did you make a deposit, or is this on a credit card? I don't know the credit card rules in India, but in USA there's no way I would have ended up paying Uber's self-serving "fine".
- adhipg 12y ago

Marazan 12y ago

I am shocked, shocked that an unlicensed taxi firm has problems with its drivers.

001sky 12y ago
Rumor has it the public transportation in India is kinds unsafe too.

dreamweapon 12y ago

From the very beginning, Uber has been fiercely proud of its eschewance of local regulations; and it's business model has always been, in a nutshell, about maximizing profit while offloading risk. So while I have no doubt that Travis is genuinely horrified by what happened, he shouldn't be in the least bit surprised, either.

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suprgeek 12y ago

Their troubles in India may get bigger: The Indian Govt. is thinking about banning them all across India [1] Can't come soon enough for a company that heavily advertised itself as being the Safer option in India and conveniently actually skipped the background verification part of the process. Then the asshat CEO put the entire blame on the "System" in a finger pointing blog post. "Move fast and Break things" Indeed. [1] http://indianexpress.com/article/india/crime/delhi-rape-govt-mulls-banning-uber-cab-services-across-india/ http://indianexpress.com/article/india/crime/delhi-rape-govt...

tomjen3 12y ago
Not an Indian, but isn't mostly a matter of whom you have to bribe and how much?
- ignoramous 12y ago
  Exactly. Threatening to ban Uber can mean only one thing-- The law-makers need a fund raiser too-- now that Uber is a $40 billion company.

known 12y ago

Rape fear keeps US students out of India: Nancy Powell http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rape-fear-keeps-US-students-out-of-India-Nancy-Powell/articleshow/26059607.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rape-fear-keeps-US-...

RyanMcGreal 12y ago

Watching the Uber saga unfold has been a fascinating time-lapse into how and why industries become regulated in the first place. It's fashionable to decry calcified organizations that refuse to adapt to change, but we regulate industries in response to market failures, and Uber's approach has been to toss out the the baby with the bathwater.

mrschwabe 12y ago
Or another point of view is that this 'saga' has been caused by a political vendetta against Uber - a common problem for startups like Uber and Tesla who are attempting to scale and share their innovations with the world.
- bluishgreen 12y ago
  I see what you did there, mentioning uber and tesla in the same sentence.

krisgenre 12y ago

This combined with their app's shady activities ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8660336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8660336 ), it does seem like a very good idea to stop using it.

makeramen 12y ago
If you read any of the technical analysis, those claims are clearly unfounded and the hacker doesn't even understand how REST works: http://thenextweb.com/apps/2014/11/27/ubers-app-malware-despite-may-read/ http://thenextweb.com/apps/2014/11/27/ubers-app-malware-desp... As an Android developer, the root and vulnerability reporting behavior is pretty standard for bug tracking, and in Uber's case fraud prevention as well.
- krisgenre 12y ago
  Thanks for pointing it out. I should make a mental note of not to just go by the top comments.

jessaustin 12y ago

It seems like every time I get tempted to have an ounce of sympathy for Uber, something like this comes up to disabuse me of that. This morning's sympathy was inspired by local government shenanigans. They had some city-manager jackhole on the radio explaining that they had informed Uber back in July that they would be considering Uber's business, and furthermore they now plan to do that consideration at the February city council meeting. Shameless!

sriramk 12y ago

I think Uber is being unfairly maligned here - too long for a comment, long piece at https://medium.com/@sriramk/in-defense-of-uber-in-india-f81c4c6267f2 https://medium.com/@sriramk/in-defense-of-uber-in-india-f81c.... tldr: Uber just can't do the same checks it does in the US in other parts of the world which don't have records. And even though it did actually get the right certificate from the cops in this case, they should have thought of doing more.

dnautics 12y ago
"Delhi has thousands of taxi drivers, cab companies, private transport vehicles — no one bothers asking for any sort of real background check for anyone driving these things. I have friends who own cab companies — their “driver check” is asking the driver whether he has a license." I am no fan of uber (although I drive for them, but mostly their competitor, which I prefer). But I think this comment is apt.
anigbrowl 12y ago
Then the logical strategy is not to operate in a market where your brand is at severe risk of being tarnished.
- simplekoala 12y ago
  or don't accept status quo. Improve the current system by 10X and solve real problems and position yourself as a great company.
simplekoala 12y ago
As a top technology company, Uber should have had some basic measures to ensure safety of their rides. In this specific case, the driver turned off the GPS, and took a detour. At the very least, these incidents should have triggered alerts on their internal monitoring systems. And, assuming they had an agreement with cellular service providers for public safety, they could have tracked of the location of the female rider through her cellphone, and dispatched cops to that location. Precisely for the reasons you mentioned in your blog post about how things can be gamed in India through bribes, Uber should have been careful about expanding in India. Asking the drivers to provide a conduct certificate in a corrupt country like India is a "cover your ass" move to precisely brandish this certificate and say - "Hey, see, we did our homework. It is not our fault" in situations like this. This was an opportunity for them to raise the bar. This is a leadership failure. They were too eager to just expand overseas. They could have used technology to mitigate such risks in the "rape capital" of India (world?). Some things I think they can do as a technology company in India - Install custom GPS trackers which cannot be turned off manually on the cars. - Install a special audio/video cam in the car, and automatic audio/video feed analysis for distress screams, struggle. - Automatic algorithmic tracking of the car route/de-tours Like I said, they had a golden opportunity to showcase how technology could be used to mitigate the risk of such incidents in Delhi, and used it in their marketing. They could have raised the bar. They could have shown how it is done. They could have made the world safer and better. This is what separates the great from the good. Larry Page calls them Moonshots. Uber had the resources to do it. They played the "CYA" game. They should take responsibility. They could have taken something and made it 10X better. That's what great companies do.

Eleutheria 12y ago

Let me see... If I buy a gun and shoot you, the government will ban gun manufacturers? If I buy a baseball bat and smash your skull, the govt will ban all sports? If I buy a potato and stick it in your throat and you die, the govt will ban agriculture? If I offer you a ride (free or for a fee) and then decide to rape you and bury you in a forest, the govt will ban auto makers? How does that make sense?

chaosmonkey 12y ago
If the gun manufacturer claimed that they have verified that guns don't kill. http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening http://blog.uber.com/driverscreening
RealGeek 12y ago
India is not banning cars or taxis on the road. They are saying that Uber shall not operate until they get permits and comply with the law. If the law requires you to go through a background check and obtain a license to buy a gun; but you don't get a license, you buy a gun and then shoot someone. Clearly, you would be liable for the crime.

tn13 12y ago

Few points worth noting - Taxi business is heavily regulated in India and anything like Uber is likely to be illegal. - India does not have any consolidated crime database. Background verification generally means asking the person to get a certificate from local police station. (Which anyone can get by paying a bribe). I am surprised that Uber was actually operating in India. Clearly they were staying under the radar and as usual the government officials were too incompetent to understand what Uber is. I think in this case Uber is clearly liable for a civil suite and must compensate the victim for lack of due diligence and fraud.

simplekoala 12y ago

Hmmm..shouldn't Uber banned in whole of India instead of just Delhi, till the Govt of India figures out how to allow Uber to operate with better safety measures.

hero454545 12y ago

This article is 5 hours old, has 314 points is one rank behind an article that's six hours hold with 23 points right now. HN users certainly love to flag anything that's critical of Uber.

tn13 12y ago

Banned is simply not acceptable. They should also be charged for fraud, making false promises about their services to their customers which got one lady raped.

known 12y ago

Uber failed to bribe appropriate Indian politicians through relevant channels. http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-most-corrupt-while-doing-business-abroad.htm http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/24/indians-among-...