6 ms·

NSA Reportedly Intercepts And Alters Routers And Servers Exported From U.S.

98 points by yanofsky 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
hnha 12y ago
no need for techcrunch spam, the original source was already submitted and discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7734418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7734418
- yanofsky 12y ago
  oops, my bad. apologies everyone
tomp 12y ago
Translation of the NSA statement: We don't deny altering hardware. In fact, if we (likely) install backdoors into hardware used by foreign intelligence targets; but don't worry, we're not interested in the casual user. As the US Government relies on commercial hardware, we make sure that only the US Government can access the backdoors. We're angry that this was made public, and we can't prove that it jeopardizes human lives.
- sentenza 12y ago
  It also sheds some new light on the "China-hardware is bad for you" media campaign that was run right before Snowden happened. It seems that not buying American means keeping the American intelligence community out of ones network. But I guess you _actually_ can't trust the Chinese either. That doesn't leave many hardware vendors for heavy-duty network equipment to choose from.
  - pmorici 12y ago
    "It seems that not buying American means keeping the American intelligence community out of ones network." Will barricading your front door keep thieves from coming in the side window?
  - gaius 12y ago
    Sure you can. The Chinese are 10,000 miles away and don't really care about Western domestic politics. It might be different if you are an arms or pharma company, but for the average citizen concerned about civil liberties, you really can trust the Chinese in this case.
    - perlpimp 12y ago
      It is not about you and the government, but rather about hackers that found out and are digging for these government approved exploits/backdoors/what-have-you.If they do alter piece by piece different bit of hardware then O.K. but somehow I doubt thats how this works, would be too work intensive and sloppy - error prone.
    - adventured 12y ago
      China cares a great deal about Western politics. Their two biggest markets are the United States and Europe. Check out the Chinese support of Hillary and Bill Clinton. There has been a ton of illegal Chinese money all over US elections for decades. Read up on the scandals from the 1990's revolving around this, or the Chinese money that flowed to Hillary in 2008. Obama.com is (was?) even owned by a money bundler out of China. Or check out the Chinese hackers that targeted the Romney & Obama campaigns. http://www.latimes.com/la-na-donors19oct19-story.html#page=1 http://www.latimes.com/la-na-donors19oct19-story.html#page=1 http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/04/04/china.clinton.money/ http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/04/04/china.clin... http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/08/the-illegal-donor-loophole.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/08/the-illegal... http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/10/hillary-clinton-campaign-received-funds-jeffrey-th/?page=all http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/10/hillary-clin... http://www.nbcnews.com/id/4264134/ns/nbc_nightly_news_with_brian_williams/t/john-kerrys-chinese-campaign-connections/#.U3Ix4Sis9kg http://www.nbcnews.com/id/4264134/ns/nbc_nightly_news_with_b... http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/06/18807056-chinese-hacked-obama-mccain-campaigns-took-internal-documents-officials-say http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/06/18807056-... http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/10/08/exposing_barack_obamas_illegal_foreign_campaign_money_loophole http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/10/08/exposin...
Faust1985 12y ago
Hrm, guess I wont buy American any more.
- jon_black 12y ago
  I've started doing the same. Of course, I wouldn't be shocked if either or both of the following were true: 1. Other countries collude with America in this practise; 2. Other countries are also practising this. Open source is a potential solution to this problem. It doesn't guarantee security (heartbleed anyone?), but it does allow anyone, anywhere, any time (assuming capability) to verify. My router runs Open-WRT, so I feel safer.
  - jon_black 12y ago
    Thinking about this more, there's a little problem for those living in "the land of opportunity": given that the government has access to all communication via its dragnet, they're aware of your purchase and can intercept it at customs. Now you might try to be smart and buy it in person while on holiday. But remember, the airport NSA can take it off your without reason and of course do what they want to it. I'm glad I don't live there.
- IgorPartola 12y ago
  "Do you mean a car designed in the US and built in China, or a Japanese car built in Ohio?" I'm pretty sure that given how few choices of mainstream hardware there are you are screwed no matter what you buy.
  - Faust1985 12y ago
    Oh certainly, I'm not saying I'm there's a need to be a fanatical purist and go through component that goes into my equipment. I'll just stop purchasing the bulk from US supplies and subsidiaries it's not like there aren't alternative suppliers with good prices.
uptown 12y ago
So is it safe to assume every Intel or AMD CPU also likely has hidden capabilities waiting to be exploited by the NSA?
- sentenza 12y ago
  Rumors about this have been around for a long time but as far as I know, nobody has proven anything. The safest guess right now is that if an American intelligence agency wants to infiltrate your corporate network, they'll take the IPMI route. With that they probably wouldn't even have to rely on a backdoor but could use the existing security holes.
- tptacek 12y ago
  What are the hidden router capabilities being exploited here? What piece of COTS hardware couldn't be exploited by an attacker with unlimited physical access to it prior to delivery?
  - wes-exp 12y ago
    Indeed. Somehow a story about NSA tampering with devices after manufacture is being twisted into "all commercial products are deliberately backdoored". If you actually use logic, these are separate issues. Actually, if anything, the story is proof that the routers are not backdoored from the start, otherwise why would they have to intercept shipments?
    - borando 12y ago
      Actually, if anything, the story is proof that the routers are not backdoored from the start Let me preface my response by saying I think there are probably more non-malicious (accidental) vulnerabilities than intentional backdoors. Schneier has seen many of the original documents, and his constant refrain is that NSA programs are robust -- that they have multiple totally unrelated ways to accomplish any one goal. Quoting one of his articles: "First and foremost, the surveillance state is robust. It is robust politically, legally, and technically. I can name three different NSA programs to collect Gmail user data. These programs are based on three different technical eavesdropping capabilities. They rely on three different legal authorities. They involve collaborations with three different companies. And this is just Gmail. The same is true for cell phone call records, Internet chats, cell-phone location data." https://www.schneier.com/essay-469.html https://www.schneier.com/essay-469.html The takeaway is that, knowing the NSA has capability A doesn't prove they lack capabilities B, C, D...Z.
higherpurpose 12y ago
Can HN please stop censoring/penalizing NSA stories? Getting flagged is one thing, but I believe they are also penalized by the site.
beejiu 12y ago
This reminds me of a story about a TOR developer who suspected her keyboard from Amazon was intercepted and implanted, because the redirection was included in the delivery log. Seems quite likely it was, in light of Glenn's latest slides release. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140124/10564825981/nsa-interception-action-tor-developers-computer-gets-mysteriously-re-routed-to-virginia.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140124/10564825981/nsa-in...
- danielweber 12y ago
  What is the specific smoking gun I am supposed to see there?
  - ds9 12y ago
    The Dulles area is known as a hub for US spook-agency headquarters and activities. It's not obvious tho that this is suspicious - there's also a big airport there and it could be just a shipping facility. I guess the argument is that it is an unnecessary detour if it could have gone right to Alexandria. I'd like to see (a) other CA shipments, say non-computer items, to Alexandria - and whether they go via Dulles and (b) a followup indicating whether Shepard found anything of interest.
smutticus 12y ago
How much hardware is actually made in the USA anymore? Most HW is manufactured in Taiwan, China, Korea, Thailand, Malaysia or maybe Mexico. I used to work for a router manufacturer that manufactured all of its equipment in Taiwan and Mexico. When we shipped to someone in Europe(for example) we shipped directly from Taiwan to Europe, not through the US. So I have to wonder how much of this stuff the NSA could actually get their hands on. The other question I have is what happens when there is an RMA, or the equipment is sent back for repair? Might someone notice that it's been tampered with? We need more specifics to really understand what was going on here. So many questions, no real answers.
- pasbesoin 12y ago
  This is not based upon any particular knowledge or expertise, but upon many years of casual observation, general news reporting, and anecdote from friends and whomever: Given their position as well as long-standing ties both politically and militarily as well as economically, I have to -- in my own mind -- seriously question the independence of anything of real interest to the U.S., that's happening in Taiwan. I don't mean that the Taiwanese aren't their own people with their own interests; nonetheless, I would expect to find their various systems rather thoroughly and effectively infiltrated. Again, I don't have any real knowledge in this regard. I'd welcome more knowledgeable comments in response to mine.
- eyeareque 12y ago
  I'm not sure how much is shipped directly from the over seas manufacturer to the customer. However, the NSA could be intercepting RMA hardware as well.
- intslack 12y ago
  Anything that's shipped from the US, basically. From the slides released with Greenwald's new book today: https://i.imgur.com/lCM0apx.png https://i.imgur.com/lCM0apx.png Here's the source, but be warned that this is a 90 MB pdf: http://hbpub.vo.llnwd.net/o16/video/olmk/holt/greenwald/NoPlaceToHide-Documents-Uncompressed.pdf http://hbpub.vo.llnwd.net/o16/video/olmk/holt/greenwald/NoPl...
eyeareque 12y ago
How can we protect ourselves from this type of interception? It seems impossible. Why would any non-american customers buy US made devices? Any protections that are added can/will be bypassed if the US gov gets physical access (or even remote).
- ds9 12y ago
  Just about the time of the previous revelation of computers from outside the US being intercepted by TLAs, my new Lenovo was delayed for a long time in some customs facility (according to UPS tracking). Software is not a concern as I blew away the preinstalled and put a relatively trusted OS on. But hardware - I haven't had time to look into it but I'm still wanting some sort of guide on what to look for after unscrewing the case.
  - eyeareque 12y ago
    The scary part is that blowing away the OS install won't save you completely. There are BIOS, firmware attacks, to name a couple. Take a look at the following link with information about persistent root access via hard drive firmware hacking. Even if you reinstall the OS, your box will continue to be owned: http://spritesmods.com/?art=hddhack&page=1 http://spritesmods.com/?art=hddhack&page=1
eyeareque 12y ago
I wish they posted more details surrounding the implants, what they can do, and how they work. Knowing this would help us detect when devices were compromised.
dang 12y ago
A dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7734418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7734418.

98 points by yanofsky 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

hnha 12y ago

no need for techcrunch spam, the original source was already submitted and discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7734418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7734418

yanofsky 12y ago
oops, my bad. apologies everyone

tomp 12y ago

Translation of the NSA statement: We don't deny altering hardware. In fact, if we (likely) install backdoors into hardware used by foreign intelligence targets; but don't worry, we're not interested in the casual user. As the US Government relies on commercial hardware, we make sure that only the US Government can access the backdoors. We're angry that this was made public, and we can't prove that it jeopardizes human lives.

sentenza 12y ago
It also sheds some new light on the "China-hardware is bad for you" media campaign that was run right before Snowden happened. It seems that not buying American means keeping the American intelligence community out of ones network. But I guess you _actually_ can't trust the Chinese either. That doesn't leave many hardware vendors for heavy-duty network equipment to choose from.
- pmorici 12y ago
  "It seems that not buying American means keeping the American intelligence community out of ones network." Will barricading your front door keep thieves from coming in the side window?
- gaius 12y ago
  Sure you can. The Chinese are 10,000 miles away and don't really care about Western domestic politics. It might be different if you are an arms or pharma company, but for the average citizen concerned about civil liberties, you really can trust the Chinese in this case.
  - perlpimp 12y ago
    It is not about you and the government, but rather about hackers that found out and are digging for these government approved exploits/backdoors/what-have-you.If they do alter piece by piece different bit of hardware then O.K. but somehow I doubt thats how this works, would be too work intensive and sloppy - error prone.
  - adventured 12y ago
    China cares a great deal about Western politics. Their two biggest markets are the United States and Europe. Check out the Chinese support of Hillary and Bill Clinton. There has been a ton of illegal Chinese money all over US elections for decades. Read up on the scandals from the 1990's revolving around this, or the Chinese money that flowed to Hillary in 2008. Obama.com is (was?) even owned by a money bundler out of China. Or check out the Chinese hackers that targeted the Romney & Obama campaigns. http://www.latimes.com/la-na-donors19oct19-story.html#page=1 http://www.latimes.com/la-na-donors19oct19-story.html#page=1 http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/04/04/china.clinton.money/ http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/04/04/china.clin... http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/08/the-illegal-donor-loophole.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/08/the-illegal... http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/10/hillary-clinton-campaign-received-funds-jeffrey-th/?page=all http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/10/hillary-clin... http://www.nbcnews.com/id/4264134/ns/nbc_nightly_news_with_brian_williams/t/john-kerrys-chinese-campaign-connections/#.U3Ix4Sis9kg http://www.nbcnews.com/id/4264134/ns/nbc_nightly_news_with_b... http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/06/18807056-chinese-hacked-obama-mccain-campaigns-took-internal-documents-officials-say http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/06/18807056-... http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/10/08/exposing_barack_obamas_illegal_foreign_campaign_money_loophole http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/10/08/exposin...

Faust1985 12y ago

Hrm, guess I wont buy American any more.

jon_black 12y ago
I've started doing the same. Of course, I wouldn't be shocked if either or both of the following were true: 1. Other countries collude with America in this practise; 2. Other countries are also practising this. Open source is a potential solution to this problem. It doesn't guarantee security (heartbleed anyone?), but it does allow anyone, anywhere, any time (assuming capability) to verify. My router runs Open-WRT, so I feel safer.
- jon_black 12y ago
  Thinking about this more, there's a little problem for those living in "the land of opportunity": given that the government has access to all communication via its dragnet, they're aware of your purchase and can intercept it at customs. Now you might try to be smart and buy it in person while on holiday. But remember, the airport NSA can take it off your without reason and of course do what they want to it. I'm glad I don't live there.
IgorPartola 12y ago
"Do you mean a car designed in the US and built in China, or a Japanese car built in Ohio?" I'm pretty sure that given how few choices of mainstream hardware there are you are screwed no matter what you buy.
- Faust1985 12y ago
  Oh certainly, I'm not saying I'm there's a need to be a fanatical purist and go through component that goes into my equipment. I'll just stop purchasing the bulk from US supplies and subsidiaries it's not like there aren't alternative suppliers with good prices.

uptown 12y ago

So is it safe to assume every Intel or AMD CPU also likely has hidden capabilities waiting to be exploited by the NSA?

sentenza 12y ago
Rumors about this have been around for a long time but as far as I know, nobody has proven anything. The safest guess right now is that if an American intelligence agency wants to infiltrate your corporate network, they'll take the IPMI route. With that they probably wouldn't even have to rely on a backdoor but could use the existing security holes.
tptacek 12y ago
What are the hidden router capabilities being exploited here? What piece of COTS hardware couldn't be exploited by an attacker with unlimited physical access to it prior to delivery?
- wes-exp 12y ago
  Indeed. Somehow a story about NSA tampering with devices after manufacture is being twisted into "all commercial products are deliberately backdoored". If you actually use logic, these are separate issues. Actually, if anything, the story is proof that the routers are not backdoored from the start, otherwise why would they have to intercept shipments?
  - borando 12y ago
    Actually, if anything, the story is proof that the routers are not backdoored from the start Let me preface my response by saying I think there are probably more non-malicious (accidental) vulnerabilities than intentional backdoors. Schneier has seen many of the original documents, and his constant refrain is that NSA programs are robust -- that they have multiple totally unrelated ways to accomplish any one goal. Quoting one of his articles: "First and foremost, the surveillance state is robust. It is robust politically, legally, and technically. I can name three different NSA programs to collect Gmail user data. These programs are based on three different technical eavesdropping capabilities. They rely on three different legal authorities. They involve collaborations with three different companies. And this is just Gmail. The same is true for cell phone call records, Internet chats, cell-phone location data." https://www.schneier.com/essay-469.html https://www.schneier.com/essay-469.html The takeaway is that, knowing the NSA has capability A doesn't prove they lack capabilities B, C, D...Z.

higherpurpose 12y ago

Can HN please stop censoring/penalizing NSA stories? Getting flagged is one thing, but I believe they are also penalized by the site.

beejiu 12y ago

This reminds me of a story about a TOR developer who suspected her keyboard from Amazon was intercepted and implanted, because the redirection was included in the delivery log. Seems quite likely it was, in light of Glenn's latest slides release. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140124/10564825981/nsa-interception-action-tor-developers-computer-gets-mysteriously-re-routed-to-virginia.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140124/10564825981/nsa-in...

danielweber 12y ago
What is the specific smoking gun I am supposed to see there?
- ds9 12y ago
  The Dulles area is known as a hub for US spook-agency headquarters and activities. It's not obvious tho that this is suspicious - there's also a big airport there and it could be just a shipping facility. I guess the argument is that it is an unnecessary detour if it could have gone right to Alexandria. I'd like to see (a) other CA shipments, say non-computer items, to Alexandria - and whether they go via Dulles and (b) a followup indicating whether Shepard found anything of interest.

smutticus 12y ago

How much hardware is actually made in the USA anymore? Most HW is manufactured in Taiwan, China, Korea, Thailand, Malaysia or maybe Mexico. I used to work for a router manufacturer that manufactured all of its equipment in Taiwan and Mexico. When we shipped to someone in Europe(for example) we shipped directly from Taiwan to Europe, not through the US. So I have to wonder how much of this stuff the NSA could actually get their hands on. The other question I have is what happens when there is an RMA, or the equipment is sent back for repair? Might someone notice that it's been tampered with? We need more specifics to really understand what was going on here. So many questions, no real answers.

pasbesoin 12y ago
This is not based upon any particular knowledge or expertise, but upon many years of casual observation, general news reporting, and anecdote from friends and whomever: Given their position as well as long-standing ties both politically and militarily as well as economically, I have to -- in my own mind -- seriously question the independence of anything of real interest to the U.S., that's happening in Taiwan. I don't mean that the Taiwanese aren't their own people with their own interests; nonetheless, I would expect to find their various systems rather thoroughly and effectively infiltrated. Again, I don't have any real knowledge in this regard. I'd welcome more knowledgeable comments in response to mine.
eyeareque 12y ago
I'm not sure how much is shipped directly from the over seas manufacturer to the customer. However, the NSA could be intercepting RMA hardware as well.
intslack 12y ago
Anything that's shipped from the US, basically. From the slides released with Greenwald's new book today: https://i.imgur.com/lCM0apx.png https://i.imgur.com/lCM0apx.png Here's the source, but be warned that this is a 90 MB pdf: http://hbpub.vo.llnwd.net/o16/video/olmk/holt/greenwald/NoPlaceToHide-Documents-Uncompressed.pdf http://hbpub.vo.llnwd.net/o16/video/olmk/holt/greenwald/NoPl...

eyeareque 12y ago

How can we protect ourselves from this type of interception? It seems impossible. Why would any non-american customers buy US made devices? Any protections that are added can/will be bypassed if the US gov gets physical access (or even remote).

ds9 12y ago
Just about the time of the previous revelation of computers from outside the US being intercepted by TLAs, my new Lenovo was delayed for a long time in some customs facility (according to UPS tracking). Software is not a concern as I blew away the preinstalled and put a relatively trusted OS on. But hardware - I haven't had time to look into it but I'm still wanting some sort of guide on what to look for after unscrewing the case.
- eyeareque 12y ago
  The scary part is that blowing away the OS install won't save you completely. There are BIOS, firmware attacks, to name a couple. Take a look at the following link with information about persistent root access via hard drive firmware hacking. Even if you reinstall the OS, your box will continue to be owned: http://spritesmods.com/?art=hddhack&page=1 http://spritesmods.com/?art=hddhack&page=1

eyeareque 12y ago

I wish they posted more details surrounding the implants, what they can do, and how they work. Knowing this would help us detect when devices were compromised.

dang 12y ago

A dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7734418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7734418.