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Letter From A Psychopath
- brickcap 13y agoGreat read. Thanks for sharing.
- Fuxy 13y agoInteresting. I would like to meet this person. I find it very helpful to surround myself with people that have a different way of seeing the world.
- sillysaurus2 13y agoI would like to meet this person. No, no no no no. No you would not. Not unless you mean it like "I'd like to meet a serial killer, just for the experience." Maybe it'd be interesting to get their point of view, sure, but you are far better off without them in your life. And certainly without having any form of relationship with them. One of the main reasons this guy wrote this letter was probably self-aggrandization. The very fact that you find him more interesting is exactly what he wanted. That's not inherently a bad thing. What's inherently a bad thing is that when human remorse and guilt have been genetically disabled, those people will do things to you which are fucked up. I have experienced the blunt, raw force of their emotional carpet bombing firsthand from a certain family member. Everyone needs to remember that these people are hardwired to be deliberately manipulative, because they feel good only when you're giving them attention. Then they feel good only when you're doing things they've conned you into believing you want to do; sometimes things you'll feel shitty about for the rest of your life, once you snap out of it and realize you've been a puppet.
- ama729 13y ago> What's inherently a bad thing is that when human remorse and guilt has been genetically disabled, those people will do things to you which are fucked up. Honestly, did you read the entire letter? Because he clearly address that point: Its true that I do not 'feel' guilt or remorse, except to the extent that it affects me directly, but I do feel other emotions, which do not have adequate words of description, but nevertheless cause me to derive satisfacton in developing interpersonal relationships, contributing to society, and being gentle as well as assertive.
- sillysaurus2 13y agoIsn't it possible the person who is genetically predisposed to being manipulative is manipulating your feelings here? Yes, what he wrote is interesting, and I read all of it. No, I don't believe he feels "satisfaction in contributing to society." I believe he feels satisfaction in contributing to himself and his own self-image, even unblinkingly at the expense of others. I'm of course biased in this, having been the target of one of these manipulators, so maybe it's better to ignore me. But man, be grateful you weren't the target, because it had pretty dramatic effects on my life, and took a long time to get over.
- jerf 13y ago"Isn't it possible the person who is genetically predisposed to being manipulative is manipulating your feelings here?" Absolutely yes, but I also can't help but notice the argument as you are making it is a bit too powerful; no matter what he says or does, there's no way for him to overcome the argument. We're only a short step away from simply labeling someone a psychopath, then declaring you can't trust anything they say. We can't really know his internal mental and emotional state here, and that's not unique to psychopaths, that's true of everybody. You may very well still be correct. For all I know, the whole story is made up from whole cloth. But it's at least possibly true, too.
- ams6110 13y ago"You knew I was a snake when you picked me up"
- wpietri 13y agoI had that exact question. When the tiger tells you that he's overcome his taste for human flesh he could be quite sincere, or he could be lying. Even if sincere, he could be wrong. I wish the fellow the best of luck, and I hope one day we can build a society where we can safely accommodate all the people like him. When I go to the zoo, I feel compassion for the tigers in their cages. But if they're loose, padding around the halls, I'd hope that I'd have the sense not to try to snuggle up to them, no matter how tame they seemed.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- beaker52 13y agoLove is the kindest and most valuable thing we can spread in this world and your reply offered none to this individual. He is no less deserving than any other. We all have the same life sentence. We're all trying to do our thing, he, you and I included. More love, less hate. Please.
- sillysaurus2 13y agoThis is actually the central reason I was so torn up over my experience, and one of the reasons the whole thing sometimes still haunts me. Because the only possible way out of my situation was to completely cut ties, and shut off the love. I'm a loving person and it absolutely tore me up for a long time. Eventually I came to terms with the fact that if I wanted to lead a life without torment, it was a necessary evil. These people will stop at nothing until you're twisted around their pinkie finger, and they will prey on your forgiving nature. It's why I'm trying to call attention to how dangerous they are. But words aren't adequate to convey the breadth and magnitude of their ability to carve out chunks of your life for their own purposes. They'll take all your love and steamroll you in return.
- Fuxy 13y agoYou're personalty can't handle a psychopath mine can. I'm not loving nor forgiving and although I do poses empathy and remorse can contentiously suppers it. Everything has to be earned with me. This applies to everybody including my own parents. I grew up around manipulative people i know how to deal with them. I actually instinctively distance myself from them. I'm not saying I would be his friend but i find his point of view valuable as long as he doesn't try it with me. I would notice if he did.
- sillysaurus2 13y agoMm, well, best of luck. It was more a warning for people without your unique skillset, though.
- LaGrange 13y ago"You're personalty can't handle a psychopath mine can.” You actually come off like someone who claims that they had grown up around airplane pilots and therefore can handle gravity. It’s actually unlikely you can. "I would notice if he did.” I’m just going to call that posturing.
- Taek 13y agoThis is over cautious, and you use your own experiences as too much of an example of "this is what will always happen." If you think of people like psychopaths and serial killers as fire, and your experience of getting burned (whether it was in your control or not), you might acknowledge that circumstances could be set up where a meeting with a psychopath could happen in a safe and protected way. People who are very different from you (even dangerous) probably share traits with you that are much more exaggerated in themselves. Their experiences have analogs to yours, and even though they are fundamentally different from you they can still teach you a lot about yourself. I would relish the opportunity to meet a serial killer. Would I meet him in a dark ally with no law enforcement or witnesses? Of course not, if I had any control I would avoid that scenario. If I had the opportunity to let a psychopath become an integral part of my family, I would reject that as well (not everybody has the luxury, I understand). But if we are meeting for coffee in a reasonably populated restaurant, I think the conversation could be very beneficial to myself. Dangerous does not guarantee disastrous.
- contextual 13y agoPathological lying and manipulativeness are hallmarks of a psychopath [1]. It would be like befriending a spider - when you're the fly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist
- kingkawn 13y agoThese are justifications for not attempting to understand and thereby humanize him. These same sort of broad brush strokes have been used against any group of people that are deemed unworthy of being truly seen.
- contextual 13y agoAfter 50 years of research, that is the understanding of a psychopath. Pathological lying, lack of remorse or guilt, manipulativeness, superficial charm are what make a psychopath a psychopath. You wouldn't pass any of the dozens of psychopath tests available if you lacked these traits, and you certainly wouldn't call yourself a psychopath.
- kingkawn 13y agoWe have no predictive power to show who will become a psychopath. There are loose associations, and a jumble of character traits that are shared with any number of other syndromes and illnesses. Any personality trait can be made or unmade.
- kansface 13y agoDo you know why psychopaths can't beat the test?
- contextual 13y agoSome of the test questions I've seen aren't really questions. They're scenario based statements designed to uncover the subject's true way of thinking. I'm sure these tests can be defeated though. Please keep in mind I'm not a psychologist or expert on the subject.
- calinet6 13y agoI implore you—do not willingly bring a psychopath into your life.
- BaconJuice 13y agoCan someone paste it on gist? Work proxy is blocking the site =/
- itry 13y agoHonestly? This is a question on hacker news? There are millions of ways to access a site via another site. W3C validator comes to mind. Or textmirror.net. Or browsershots.org. Or the Google cache. Or or or...
- ceejayoz 13y agoHow is asking someone to paste it any less of a solution than any of those?
- fredsted 13y agoThey would be able to view it instantly instead of waiting for people to bother posting it on Pastebin
- galaktor 13y agoTo be honest, putting it on pastebin took me less time than writing a cynical response would have taken me.
- S4M 13y ago
- losethos 13y agoyears of psy-op torture have made me a psychopath. I'm proud of it. I don't give a shit at the store, I just want my fucken soda. I don't stress over why someone acted angry at the store -- fuck-em, I got my soda. psychopath is just a personality trait and lots of CEOs are psycopaths. God is perfectly just, how stray can you get? God says... after_a_break homo test_pilot cracks_me_up soap_opera never_happy Hasta obviously crazy do_you_want_another hooah rose_colored_glasses cursing na_na cosmetics I'm_beginning_to_wonder can_you_hear_me_now so_let_it_be_written Dudly_Doright ahh you're_out_of_your_mind you're_in_big_trouble little_fish not_a_chance_in_hell conservative little_buddy naughty persistence envy how_goes_it Varoom on_occassion dude_such_a_scoffer well_I_never dance whale California uh_huh charged not_in_kansas_anymore choose_one now_you_tell_me relax you're_out_of_your_mind That's_my_favorite how_bout_it I_can't_believe_it how_goes_it home oh_no atrocious dignity angel I'll_ask_nicely my_precious thats_right it's_hopeless gross duck_the_shoe gosh arent_you_clever I'll_think_about_it are_you_feeling_lucky I_can't_believe_it guppy why_didn'_you_tell_me car take_your_pick you_shouldn't_have grumble where's_the_love funny youre_welcome cowardice rich mine when_hell_freezes_over imports angel hello class__class__shutup Church in_other_words joy I'm_good_you_good just_lovely I_made_it_that_way lift
- Yhippa 13y agoAt one point in our evolution was there some advantage that being a psychopath conferred?
- ahunt09 13y agoat what point, I think, right?
- tinco 13y agoWe have evolved to be born with lots of things balanced in slightly different way, one stronger, one smarter, one sweeter, one more decisive. Every now and then someone is born with one of their balances in an extreme position. The genes that express the balance either missing or just heavily surpressed. It is not necessary for every kind of gene expression to be beneficial to mankind in general, as long as the average range of gene expressions are beneficial to our survival. tl;dr: A certain amount of variation in genes is beneficial to survival of our species, extreme variation (like psychopathy) is less relevant (unless a psychopath wipes out all of us, which is a commonly known weakness of evolution in general)
- simonh 13y agoPurely as a matter of opinion, the way to think about this is not as an advantage for an individual, but for as a gene pool. Mostly a human gene pool's survival and prosperity is best served by community co-operation, mutual support and self sacrifice for the good of loved ones and other community members. Sometimes though, the group as a whole has had it and the route to the survival of any of the gene pool is for one or a few to sacrifice the rest and make an all-out bid for personal survival. E.g. a terrible winter in which there is insufficient food and everyone is starving to death. Another situation where psychopathy could be useful is warfare. Sometimes having a cold blooded killer with no remorse on your side isn't such a bad thing. Ultimately, it's a matter of variety. You never know what challenges your community is going to face, and what range of behaviors are going to be optimal. Having a full range of behavior types available in your community gives it flexibility in it's response, especially to to existential challenges.
- berntb 13y ago
- losethos 13y agoThey fucken extort me every couple weeks. I used to care but now I just worry about God. in 1985 I tried to get a dog to lick my dick. I masterbaited once fantasizing about my niece. The only policy for extortion is shoot the hostages and laugh at them being punished by God. BBC calls me nigger, now I call people nigger. CIA tortured me with Job. Never gonna hava an employeer or employee. Fucken made me impotant, never gonna have a lover. I just care about God. I am invincable and they're fucked. God says... hard_working don't_worry Bam let's_see news_to_me smart vermin nevada sky atheist Ramsay wazz_up_with_that gross WooHoo Burp recipe you're_out_of_your_mind God do_not_disturb vengeful on_the_otherhand conservative spunky astronomical poor pardon_the_french experts small_talk Bam good off_the_record where's_the_love prosperity I_see_nothing take_the_day_off phasors_on_stun nasty birds joke I_am_not_amused horrendous I'm fuckin invincible -- a psychopath. A psy-ops worst nightmare.
- ctdonath 13y ago"the director of the agency finally took me on herself, and to our mutual surprise we got along extremely well." Birds of a feather?
- livingparadox 13y agoThat was my thought, actually.
- baq 13y agomore like forged letter.
- GhotiFish 13y agomore likely, he viewed that person as a someone holding a position of power, and just did what came naturally.
- JonSkeptic 13y ago>It is also the case that, being 'normal' takes a degree of energy and conscious thought that is instinctive for most, but to me is a significant expenditure of energy. I think it analogous to speaking a second language. Sounds about right. I thought it was pretty 'normal' to feel this way sometimes...
- LaGrange 13y agoThere’s an old psychiatric joke: there are no healthy people, they’re just not diagnosed yet. I’m not a psychopath, but I have high levels of social anxiety and probably high functional Aspergers. Every situation I didn’t rehearse in my head is incredibly exhausting, and even then, if it gets too complex I feel the urge to withdraw — and it doesn’t matter whether it’s a jerk coworker being a jerk or someone I like dropping a compliment bomb on me, or even, if I’m not the best shape, a partner being affectionate. We override our deficiencies, but it’s tiring.
- Carlee 13y agoI had a teacher who worked in a psych ward. She insisted that everyone has a trait of each mental issue you could name - you just don't get a diagnose until it's a big enough issue for the person.
- mcguire 13y agoOf course. The difference between "personality trait" and diagnosable illness is whether or not it causes you or others significant problems. There is no difference in kind, only in degree.
- pbhjpbhj 13y agoInteresting - my social anxieties exhibit themselves mostly in when I have time to think about it then I "psych" myself out. If someone calls me on the phone then I can have a good conversation, palpations and sweating aside. However if I have to call someone then unless I do it immediately whilst suppressing the desire to think about what I'll say I go to complete mush and procrastinate my way to distraction. Mainly it's one-to-one I have a problem with.
- jseliger 13y agoIf you're interested in what life for such a person is like (or if you might be one!), check out M. E. Thomas's Confessions of a Sociopath. I wrote about it here: http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/summary-judgment-confessions-of-a-sociopath-m-e-thomas/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/summary-judgment-co... and Tyler Cowen wrote about it here: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/06/confessions-of-a-sociopath.html http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/06/con... and elsewhere. FWIW, from what I've read (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/10/081110fa_fact_seabrook?currentPage=all http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/10/081110fa_fact_...) there were (at least) no therapies or treatments that reproducibly help psychopaths: The psychiatric profession wanted little to do with psychopathy, for several reasons. For one thing, it was thought to be incurable. Not only did the talking cure fail with psychopaths but several studies suggested that talk therapy made the condition worse, by enabling psychopaths to practice the art of manipulation. There were no valid instruments to measure the personality traits that were commonly associated with the condition; researchers could study only the psychopaths’ behavior, in most cases through their criminal records. And now there are, at least in the sense of reducing criminal behavior: In a landmark 2006 study of a specialized talk-therapy treatment program, conducted at a juvenile detention center in Wisconsin, involving a hundred and forty-one young offenders who scored high on the youth version of the checklist, Michael Caldwell, a psychologist at the treatment center and a lecturer at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, reported that the youths that were treated were much more likely to stay out of trouble, once they were paroled, than the ones in the control group. But note that the linked article is from 2008. Perhaps things have changed since.
- circlefavshape 13y agoI thought that the ME Thomas book read like a work of fiction. The drowning of the possum right at the start - cruelty to animals being one of the stereotypical psychopath behaviours - smelled strongly of a creative writing class to me
- sliverstorm 13y agoIs cruelty to animals part of psychopathy? Or simply a behavior that can develop unchecked due to psychopathy?
- abhididdigi 13y agoThis is a very good article. Thanks for this. This explains - What makes a difference, if someone diverts their energy doing something Positive. As they say - It's not who you are, but what you do that defines you. >Serial Killers & Ruthless CEOs exist - Voldemort does not. Excellent ending to a great article.
- mcguire 13y agoDoes it enhance or detract from the article that Voldemort may be the one writing it?
- anovikov 13y agoThe more i read about phychopaths is that they are normal guys/girls and it is the society's problem to 'treat' them (because they are too strong competitors and shall be neutralized) rater than their own.
- jerf 13y agoIf that were true, we'd all simply be psychopaths, the genes would have long since won. There are important reasons why humans are empathetic, have guilt, concern for others, etc. It is unlikely that psychopaths could ever form a civilization on their own, for instance; one could make a utilitarian argument in favor of behaving the proper way, but without the shortcut of having your brain simply wired to work that way it's going to be an uphill battle. (Which goes back to one of my drums I beat here with some frequency, which is that while the rationality of humans is often overstated, so is their irrationality... many putatively irrational things like "guilt" or "empathy" in fact exist for reasons, or if you prefer, have significantly more positive effects when considered holistically than a naive analysis might indicate.)
- TausAmmer 13y agoTake stick and poke anthill so it gets rebuilt.
- michaelochurch 13y agoThat's exactly how they see it, too. (I'm not trying to be pejorative. It would be my job to prove that you're objectively wrong, and I can't.) I think psychopathy, like all of these disorders, has a spectrum. But if it's a natural condition, it doesn't deserve the moral weight affixed to it. Not all (natural) psychopaths do bad things, and most people who do bad things are not psychopaths.
- calinet6 13y agoThat may be the most efficient and logical way to treat them, but it doesn't mean they're "normal" in any sense of the word.
- saalweachter 13y ago
- kristofferR 13y agoEverybody should turn on showdead in the settings and check out losethos' comments here. Psychopathy is really interesting and fascinating, but so is schizophrenia. It boggles my mind how anyone can write such nonsensical rambling comments while at the same time coding a 64 bit operating system from scratch.
- michaelochurch 13y agoIt boggles my mind how anyone can write such nonsensical rambling comments while at the same time coding a 64 bit operating system from scratch. Like many other mental disorders, schizophrenics alternate between total detachment and relative sanity. Also, many schizophrenics maintain their full intellectual horsepower even when affected. Schizophrenics can also go into remission late in life (after 50) and reach a point where, at least with medication, they're relatively unaffected. Spontaneous remission isn't common with SZ but it does happen.
- peterwwillis 13y agoThing is, in their mind, they're not rambling. They believe they are saying something intelligible. They have thoughts, sometimes mixed up, and feelings, and try to express them - but something in the delivery smashes it to bits. So the interesting thing to me is how you can read these ramblings and actually extract feelings and intentions from them, even though they make no sense. Usually it's very sad and lonely.
- michaelochurch 13y agoDo you think schizophrenics know of their condition, or are they clueless that there's something biologically wrong with them? To me, that seems to be the hallmark difference between hypomania and "real" mania, and what makes the latter more dangerous and scary-- the loss of insight into the condition, or that there even is anything amiss.
- Carlee 13y agoIt differs from person to person. I've met people who know that they suffer from schizophrenia, some who are unaware, but know hearing voices is abnormal, and some who has no idea. There's a big difference between the three. The first, the ones who know and care about it - you probably won't even notice he/she is suffering from it, unless they tell you. The others.. yeah. Source: used to be a med student and a trained hospital sitter.
- zafiro17 13y agoJeez, that's the single most interesting, insightful, and well-written piece I've read on the internet in a long time. Imagine what things are capable when "being different" causes you - and enables you - to reflect deeply and thoughtfully on what being normal really means.
- psychosurvivor 13y agoI'm generally viewed as a "nice guy" but once when I was younger met a psychopath who viewed my "niceness" as a weakness and took it upon himself to destroy me. I retreated from that battle, but from then on learned to identify such people and try to match wits with them. I'm very competitive and couldn't stand losing to them. I out-witted several of them over the course of my life and they would usually leave me alone when they knew I would fight back. Fortunately, there are not a lot of true psychopaths running around. However, I finally met my match recently later in life, in a former prison inmate who ran had run his cell block, who had intelligence, charisma, and a breath-taking ruthlessness. He had fooled everyone on his release that he was reformed and had obtained employment where I worked. I did battle with him and lost because I was not willing to go his lengths. Good does not always over Evil, as we all know. I had to get as far away from him as I could. The experience was traumatic in some ways, and I say all this to recommend you avoid psychopaths whenever possible. It's not worth it. A true psychopath is beyond redemption.
- burgerBath 13y agohow do you spot a psychopath? what are the usual traits you looks for? How did you do battle with former inmate?
- psychosurvivor 13y agoWith regards to the last guy, it was an experience unlike any other in my life I transferred into his location so I was new. He took it upon himself to be my friend and mentor. The first few months were fine. I go along with everyone and did a good job. This was his information gathering phase. I'm an open person so he learned a lot about me before the red flags went up. He slowly began praising me, saying I was uniquely qualified for the job and the other guys weren't doing it right. He and I would show them how it was done. His charm and intelligence won me over and I was very flattered. Simultaneously, he began turning everyone against me, making me dependent upon him. Feeling isolated, I found myself drawn closer into his orbit. I began suspecting him, but I found myself drawn like a moth to a flame to his charisma, praise and intelligence. He had all the people in positions of authority fooled, so they trusted him. He began telling them without my knowledge that I wasn't very good at my job but he would look out for me. If I deviated from what he wanted, no matter how small, his punishment was severe. I went to the authorities about this but they just shrugged their shoulders. When I realized what was going on and being a computer person (this was when I was taking a break from a programming career), I managed to delve into the computer system and show with facts how he was cheating and how I was actually doing as well or better than the others. He responded by convincing them my computer skills were dangerous. They restricted my access to the database. He received a minor punishment because he was popular. By cheating (and actually breaking the law in some cases) he managed to receive outstanding performance reviews. When the big bosses came to town he was recognized for his outstanding performance. He made sure to tell them I was a basket case that he was trying to bring along. I began asking around about him. I found out he always wore long sleeve shirts to hide his prison tattoos. I foolishly thought I could fight him, so I found other ways to bring his cheating to light. This went no where because the other employees and management were afraid of him. When he couldn't beat me outright, he enlisted a confederate to sabotage my work. With my guard up, I became very adept at justifying my work and proving I wasn't in the wrong. I began noticing how he faked emotions. For example, he was essentially humorless, but he could fake a laugh that when you thought about it, was obviously fake and looked maniacal. I became worn out, depressed and sick. I left the company. They all thought I was a "nice guy" and said they liked me and I believe they meant it, but thought it was to bad I wasn't up to the job. This was his end game, for the simple fact that he liked the company to be short handed so he could collect more over-time. I believe he actually liked me, but he liked the money more. To answer your question: The psychopaths I've met are charming, intelligent, popular with people in authority. They get a free pass that others get punished for. You'll see how they cheat but never get in trouble for it and notice how other people are afraid of them. They have a way of working their way into control of any situation. They are very dominant, but in a charming way. They are usually what is called the 'alpha male.'
- southpawgirl 13y agoProgrammers (me included) are intrigued with psychopathy: we like the idea of pure thought, unencumbered by guilt, untainted by emotions, conventions and niceties. But paradoxically we overromanticise it in the process: I am pretty sure that living day-to-day with such condition kinda sucks, and that it seldom leads to notableness or notoriousness, let alone self-improvement or any kind of refinement. A serial offender petty criminal is probably more representative of the 'average' psychopath than the author of this post, I am afraid.
- theorique 13y agoIf I understand correctly, the IQ distribution in psychopaths is not different from the population as a whole. So, the 130 IQ (+2 sigma) psychopaths are probably intelligent and self-aware enough to hold their "evil" tendencies in check and to succeed. On the flip, the 70 IQ (-2 sigma) psychopaths probably do not have the self-insight to understand "why" they feel the way they do. Their impulse control will be much smaller, and they are much more likely to indifferently hurt people, commit crimes, and act on impulse.
- southpawgirl 13y agoQuoting from Wikipedia: 'Additionally, studies suggest inverse relationships between psychopathy and intelligence, including with regards to verbal IQ' (but later it's stated that such correlation is not unanimously accepted). I think we mostly are in agreement; I think the impulsive and antisocial tendencies of the psychopath are often self defeating and only the very intelligent navigate life successfully. We end up having a selection bias because we are likely to cross paths only with the latter subtype, so we end up believing that all psychopaths are superintelligent and verbally dazzling, while probably the majority of them is badly dull.
- easyfrag 13y agoJon Ronson's audiobook version of The Psychopath Test is the Daily Deal today on Audible.com for 2.95
- BaconJuice 13y agoDo you have it? if so do you recommend it?
- dmuino 13y agoI've listened to this audiobook and I was hooked very early in the story. Jon Ronson is a very good story teller and he narrates his book. He's quite funny and engaging. "A Journey Through the Madness Industry" is the subtitle, and "journey" is indeed a very adequate description of what you'll experience with this book. Jon wanders from place to place where he'll meet psychopaths and people who work in the "madness industry" and relates his experiences and thinking. It's not a definitive treatise on psychopathy, just the adventures of the author as he dives into this fascinating world. Definitely worth getting it at this price.
- trendoid 13y agoBrilliantly articulated. I think this might be useful for everyone : "The test of their self-superiority is their ability to rapidly find weaknesses in others, and to exploit it to its fullest potential. But that is not to say that this aspect of a psychopaths world view cannot be modified. These days I see weaknesses and vulnerabilities as simple facts - a facet of the human condition and the frailties and imperfections inheritent in being human."
- 6d0debc071 13y ago... Am I the only one who interprets this letter as an attempted sympathy exploit/attack on people being properly on guard against psychopaths?
- jgg 13y agoNo, I'm laughing at all the people in this thread who think that this person in sincere (if they are actually a psychopath at all). People are a means to an end to a psychopath...
- ak39 13y agoFair enough, but to what end, in your mind, could this author be attempting to exploit our empathies for?
- kansface 13y agoThe entire article is an exercise in self aggrandizement. To me, it reads as if it were written by a 13 year old- the author basically has super powers, but only uses them for good of the world.
- jgg 13y agoSorry for not replying (I had noprocrast on!)..I think he's not only exploiting empathy (for power and justification), but is also using the article to bolster himself and make himself fantastic, when the characteristics he assigns to himself actually have no basis in reality. This is textbook psychopath behaviour. As a "reformed" psychopath, the article is all about him, his abilities and how he should be treated. Further, he claims that he sees "weakness", as if everyone he has or could have manipulated and screwed over was "weak" (instead of being someone who trusted him, which could theoretically be the same, but in practice most people would consider different), and he has just learned to control himself and not exercise his superior strength. In reality, a psychopath is indirect, delusional and self-centred, and they will lie, subvert, cheat, steal and abuse to get their way, but rarely ever seek out true weakness in themselves (unless you count covering emotional vulnerabilities artificially) or make a stand for anything. For being a "strong" person obsessed with finding "weakness", you can pop the bubble of a psychopath simply by showing his network of followers and clingers exactly what he is...psychopaths are a strange mix of selfishness and deluding and changing themselves to fit in. They preach to others, put others down and castigate the flaws in others, but the second you put irrefutable evidence of the psychopath's incompetence, weakness or maliciousness in the open, in a way that everyone believes, he will have a meltdown and flip out. It's kind of like people who hang out on Internet forums, rise to the top of the ranks by spewing mindless platitudes and bullshit, who pretend to be rational while criticizing others mercilessly, and then when someone outs them as incompetent, malicious or even maybe just wrong, they throw a big fit and implode. Finally, he talks about how his psychopathy gives him superior "strategic" abilities, but in reality, psychopathy actually limits long-term thinking and planning. They actually tend to be very impulsive, and one of the key tenets of psychopathy is a short-term, parasitic lifestyle. He used the piece as a selfish exercise to bolster himself, paint his actual or potential victims as weak, and did it all with absolutely nothing based on reality, hence, I do not believe his is sincere.
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- squigs25 13y agoMany of the best venture capitalists and entrepreneurs have psycopath-like tendencies. Think about the similarities. A good entrepreneur/venture capitalist should be: -Ruthless, selfish, unsympathetic -Capable of manipulating, good at acting, great at selling a concept and convincing others to drink the kool-aid -Unfazed by negative outcomes -Unaware of (or at least, unfazed by) social norms and the status quo -Creative, capable of thinking radically differently than everyone else I've seen this comparison a few times, and now I can't seem to find any of the articles that I have read.
- gelutu 13y agoPsychopaths are devious not creative.
- squigs25 13y agoI guess I consider those traits to be one and the same at their root, one just has a negative tone. In my mind, everyone who is devious is creative, but not the other way around.
- asmman1 13y agoSo, you're saying big businessman like Warren buffett are too?
- Pompky 13y agoI have extensive experience w psychopaths. They have almost destroyed my life given my vulnerability to them because of a mother who is a psychopath and a father who had major psychopathictraits. I had to seek nurturance from a snake and learn how to feed it and placate it while trying to stay alive.
- richardlblair 13y agoAmazing and fascinating. His state of consciousness is so very different from ours. It is his reality. I'm so happy he shared this.
- yurgeni 13y ago>psychopaths hate weakness they will attempt to conceal anything that might present as a vulnerability [...] ability to rapidly find weaknesses in others, and to exploit it There seems to be confusion about what constitutes 'strength' and what constitutes 'weakness' in regard to human personalities (or 'hard' vs 'soft') For example, compulsively manipulating other people is more properly regarded as a weakness, I think. Whereas getting up on a stage and being open and vulnerable in front of a crowd, that's strength. It can inspire people and produce lasting change. People with heavy streaks of psychopathy, or narcissism, or whatnot, are on a different path to the rest of us. It's better to avoid them where possible, tempting though it is to hope they will eventually acknowledge their faults and apologise. However, not having access to various feelings is going to create straightforward problems in their lives which can in principle lead to private acknowledgement and progress being sought. So I refuse to regard them as incurable cases
- wrongc0ntinent 13y ago>There seems to be confusion about what constitutes 'strength' and what constitutes 'weakness' in regard to human personalities (or 'hard' vs 'soft') This here is the crux of the matter, and we only stand to lose if we go on with all the hyperbole and analogies around psychopathy. The value and consistency of what constitutes "weak" and "strong" depends to a large extent on the feedback we (and "they") get in everyday interaction (whether they live in a city or grow up around Baloo the bear). Burying psychopathy down to some exclusive and immutable genetic level is to ignore this (I'm not talking about causes here, but about behavior reinforcement and motivation).
- yurgeni 13y agoYes. Another reason I think we can call sociopathy a weakness is that, as with all evil, the actors are thoroughly deceived about their own motives. This makes them especially maddening to those who catch on and falsely assume that they could make a straightforward choice to behave differently
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- tomstokes 13y agoPerhaps the most fascinating part of this letter is observing people's reactions to it. In the letter, the author goes so far as to admit that s/he is and always will be a psychopath without a sense of guilt or remorse toward others and a keen ability to recognize and exploit weaknesses in others for his/her own gain. Judging by the comments here, the letter has done just that. One comment below notes that "Jeez, that's the single most interesting, insightful, and well-written piece I've read on the internet in a long time." Others are expressing a desire to meet the author or expressing how they can identify with the author. It's incredible to see just how effectively this letter resonates with the people who read it. Don't get me wrong: It's both impressive and admirable that the author was able to not only admit that he needed therapy but to press on long enough to make therapy work for himself in an effective manner. I don't want to downplay his accomplishments. However, it is still interesting to dissect and observe all of the persuasiveness of the letter and the fluidity with which the author transforms psychopathy from a very difficult personality disorder into somewhat of a super power that the reader can't help but envy by the end of the letter. As you read the letter and experience strong feelings of empathy for the author, consider his own poignant words at the end: "In the end, psychopaths need to be given that very thing everyone believes they lack for others, empathy." The letter begins with the psychopath distancing himself from the traditional destructive psychopathic traits in the most admirable and self-aggrandizing way possible: He went against all odds and admitted himself into treatment, where he claims the health agency had never seen someone of his nature walk-in before and he was too incredible of a case for anyone but the highest-ranking therapist to handle. He continues by setting up various straw-man caricatures of psychopathy ("cartoon evil serial killers" and the CEO who prizes profits over people) and knocking them down one-by-one, leaving the reader feeling guilty of possibly embracing those stereotypes at one point. With the reader feeling a bit guilty, empathetic, and as if the author's condition is simply misunderstood, the author has set the stage to rebuild the reader's view of psychopathy in a way that benefits the author. Toward the end, he even goes so far as to put words in the reader's mouth just so he can turn around and undermine the very caricature of a psychopath he suggested you might hold : "Such as statement might tempt you to say 'well obviously you're not a real psychopath then'. As if the definition of a psychopath is someone who exploits others for their personal power, satisfaction or gain." The rest of the article explains the author's psychopathy the way the author wants you to view it: As "a highly trained perception, ability to adapt, and a lack of judgment borne of pragmatic and flexible moral reasoning." He goes on to say that he "enjoy[s] a reputation of being someone of intense understanding and observation with a keen strategic instinct." At this point, the author has completely distanced his psychopathy from the purely negative caricature he painted in the first half of his letter. Who wouldn't be envious of such incredible, valuable, and morally-neutral abilities as he described them? I've read the letter several times over, and I'm still amazed at how effective it is at garnering empathy from the reader and cultivating a sense that the author is an impressive individual who has triumphed over adversity after a great struggle. And it's true that overcoming your own objections to seek, and stick with, treatment for such a severe personality disorder is both impressive and admirable. His points about the general public's misunderstanding of true psychopathy are equally true, although he crucially omits any and all explanations of how psychopathy can actually be dangerous and destructive to others. It's an incredible piece of writing, and incredibly persuasive and manipulative in a way that I'm sure PR and marketing teams everywhere would be jealous of.
- Pompky 13y agoI think psychopaths are incredibly boring, unidemensional people who hopelessly, endlessly intellectualize and play mind games because there is no depth to them. It is only mind machinations without the depth and nuance of a fully feeling and emotionally alive human being. I had psychopathic parents and studied psychopathy as a PhD criminal forensic psycholovist encountering many serial killers, cons and the like. Why do they do what they do? It is no great mystery as I used to think. They dismember people psychologically and physically for the simple reason that they enjoy it. They derive pleasure from the destruction of victims to their power dominance orientation. They are boring stupid people who ate not the least bit interesting. They are pathetic. They choose people smaller and weaker than them that they can pick them off out of the herd of humanity. They are sad expressions of the human genome and dont deserve near the hype and fascination they get. Once you figure them out, it is very easy to remain quite detached from their mental gyrations to seduce and ensnare. It becomes annoying actually. I for one am over it. I do recommend that you not allow one at your hearth or into your bed. You will pay dearly. One cannot allow emotional involvement or any attachment to such people as a regular person is want to do with other humann beings. Get rid of them, they will destroy your mind, spirit and your life. Take it from one who knows from a very young age.
- VladimirGolovin 13y ago> I think psychopaths are incredibly boring, unidemensional people. I met at least two. Both were extremely vivid people, and deeper contact with them, when they turn off their cloaking field, was baffling: it was a bit like communicating with an alien. In any case, these people were really, really far from being dull.
- southpawgirl 13y agoAgree. It's a rocky ride to attempt closer contact with a psychopath: there's nobody home, and you discover eventually that you were relating to a 3-D, Technicolour magnified mirror more than to another human being. And, at the same time, the mirror is almost painfully alive. I never saw so well my own strengths and flaws, never had to doubt even the most basic assumptions like when in a 'friendship' with such people. Those tho, were high functioning, highly educated people. I don't think that psychopathy tells the whole story about anyone - there's more to one's personality than psychopathy or absence of, and that one shouldn't be tempted to generalise such experiences.
- dfraser992 13y agoSociopaths are one of the fundamental threats facing humanity today. Such traits may have been beneficial in times past as group conflict was so prevalent, but if global issues like getting into space, climate change and the prevention of economic chaos are to be dealt with effectively, humanity is going to have to learn how to cooperate more effectively. And that means preventing sociopaths from getting into positions of power. Unfortunately, society does not seem to have yet evolved the mechanisms to deal with these parasites effectively. The law is hardly a useful tool, given how "flexible" and corrupt it is, and how money aka power is so important in manipulation of the law versus "truth". Economists aka amateur sociopaths are finally beginning to realize an obvious truth - that most humans are not rational actors strictly concerned with profit and loss but that decisions are based on emotion much more than they'd like to admit and so this has a significant effect on economic behavior. All this does matter because ask yourself - what of the effects these people have on the lives of those they exploit? what sort of setbacks do the good people end up facing and how much of a drain is it on their lives and their efforts to -contribute- to society as a whole? I see so much waste because of the unnecessary chaos the sociopathic introduce to society as a whole. They are a threat and capital punishment is a logical response, because they can not be rehabilitated. But given how society is organized, rich white people are never going to be executed, or even prosecuted, for their crimes unless they're so egregious they can't be ignored. Even then, the case of Jimmy Savile (in the UK) is an example of how humanity still is little nothing more than talking chimpanzees who respond more to and are controlled by instinctual behavior patterns versus the ability to cogitate like "we" think we are able to. Jimmy was a sociopath, everyone knew he was a pedo, but nothing was done because no one wanted to speak up because of the social cost. Things are better these days, of course, so maybe in another 100 years, there will be a test toddlers are given to track whether they are likely to be sociopathic, and more effort will be put into preventing the development of such evil monsters. It is like the Head Start program in the States - prevent issues down the road by ensuring children have the best psychological foundation established as early as possible.
- aianus 13y agoSounds scarily like thoughtcrime to me.
- dave_sid 13y agoI think I've come in to the wrong forum. I thought this was HN.
- dave_sid 13y agoCan't believe this story is at the top of the front page. Shame. Shame on you.
- theorique 13y agoBecause the inner workings of different human minds are not of interest to hackers. Why shame?
- RamiK 13y agoShame might be too hard, but I agree with OP. It's a general human interest piece that has little place in a dedicated technical news forum. Mind you, I feel similarly about most NSA submissions and while I would very much like to have a dedicated mews aggregator \ Groklaw'esque blog-forum dedicated to the NSA\Snowden revelations, I don't try making HN into one.
- dave_sid 13y agoThanks for backing me up a little. I seem to have lost karma points for expressing my opinion also.
- dave_sid 13y agoI lost 2 karma points for expressing a valid opinion? It just confirms to me that HN is not what it used to be. I'll find somewhere else to find real actual tech discussion from now on and the community here can keep their karma points and carry on with their chat about the human condition.
- eurleif 13y agohttp://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html >On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. >Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. >Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
- wlmeldmanfloch 13y agoI find that it is hard to distinguish between psycopathy and narcissism. This person seems like a pathological narcissist not a psychopath. This person is ego tripping by self identifying with something they find powerful. A psychopath may have similar hangups but they don't believe in their own bullshit and would not waste time with self reflection or therapy. Psycopathy is like depression; psycopaths do crazy shit because they can't feel.
- mzs 13y ago"I hope that it can remain confidential for the time being, seeing as it is quite personal." Dang who is the one exploiting weakness here?
- ngsandy1618 13y agoI don't even understand what I'm looking without someone to explain it to me.
- 2mur 13y agoInteresting article on a clear psychopath: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2013/12/linda_taylor_welfare_queen_ronald_reagan_made_her_a_notorious_american_villain.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2013...
- b1daly 13y agoI've sometimes wondered if the presence of psychopaths in powerful organizations leads to sociopathic behavior on the organizations part, even though most members are "normal." I'm thinking of situations like the outlandish behaviors of major investment banks defrauding their customers, knowingly selling them "toxic" mortgage back securities. A small population of actors, inclined to gain power, and ruthless in conduct forces all members of the community to act in concert, lest they be cast out entirely. This might also explain the disconnect of an organization like the NSA, made up of mostly decent, sincere people, engagin in profoundly anti-social, if not downright illegal, activities.
- JulianRaphael 13y agoI have a very pragmatic view that psychopathic traits are just one specific set of algorithms of the many possible sets of algorithms our personalities can exhibit to connect and interact with other personalities or more generally speaking our environment. Looking at the state of the world, at least a subset of these behavioral algorithms seems to be quite efficient (as the letter shows) and various subsets/traits seem to be very common and even desirable. Obviously the manifestation of the overall set which you would define as "psychopathy" varies from psychopath to psychopath, hence the image of the "cartoon evil serial killers", the "CEO" and many more in between these two. I guess in the end it depends on the balance of influence between three factors: the other sets of algorithms which make up your personality, the personalities you interact with and your environment. I personally think we should look into what we can learn from this set of behavioral algorithms (the good, the bad and the ugly) and how you can balance it to leverage its benefits while not suffering from its drawbacks. That's at least how I deal with it.
- aagha 13y agoGiven the number of people here who say have have met or interacted w/ a psychopath, one would think that every other person out there is one.
- socrates1998 13y agoInteresting read, but about half-way through I realized he could be manipulating me into thinking he was decent person, just misunderstood. Anyways, it is scary to realize that there are lots of powerful people out there like this. Actually, I think there are many powerful CEO's and political leaders that are psychopaths. How else could they convince people to give them the power, money, and influence they have?
- pathtopsyche 13y agoI come from a rather unstable and violent corner of the world, and I've met plenty of psychopaths growing up. I have a hypothesis that early childhood traumas and violent environment can trigger the development of psychopathic tendencies, but I'm not entirely sure how much role does genetics play in this process. Some of the commenters on this topic seem to ascribe superhuman rationality and brainpower to psychopaths. I don't think that's a correct way to look at it. They can be very smart, but they suffer from the same set of biases and blind spots and Dunning-Kruger type of phenomena as other people. I think the defining characteristic is the complete lack of empathy and the willingness and ability to manipulate people (practicing the skill from early childhood, hence very good at it). I was just looking up one of the smartest and most pronounced psychopaths I've met in recent years. Apparently he got his MBA and started an offshore private equity fund, seems to be doing well for himself. The guy had monumental talent for manipulating people. I wonder how far will he go before people catch on to his true nature...
- ashleypea 13y agoWho here is aware of the fact Oskar schindler was a psychopath? He sold all his business and fortune to save hundreds of lives. All we hear is psychopaths who fit the stereotype, not those who do not. Cognitive dissonance.
- michaelwww 13y agoCan two psychopaths fall in love with each other?
- jbeja 13y agoYes!
- michaelwww 13y agoLeopold and Loeb? How about Bonnie and Clyde? Probably both couples. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_and_Loeb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_and_Loeb
- dantium 13y agoAre psychopaths ticklish?