8 ms·

Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java

317 points by lagerstedt 14y ago

speeder 14y ago
Can anyone please tell me why Oracle is doing that? I don't get it, it seems to me that the amount of unhappy people would eclipse any penny they might earn with such cheap tactics, it is not like this would give them a 10% profit increase.
- josephagoss 14y ago
  Oracle don't care about happy people, and a lack of happy people dealing with Oracle has not stopped their massive profits so why would they start now? I think this is extra worse than normal bundling, because its a friggin platform! A basis for applications, it smells as bad as Microsoft asking to install a toolbar during the OS install.
  - yankcrime 14y ago
    By bundling advert-ridden applications with their latest OS, Microsoft aren't really all that far off the mark from your comment.
    - andyjohnson0 14y ago
      Are these applications really bundled by Microsoft or are they pre-installed [1] by OEMs that sell Win8 with their hardware? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-installed_software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-installed_software
      - yankcrime 14y ago
        If you do a clean install of Windows 8, several of the bundled applications - such as Weather - have adverts placed in them.
        andyjohnson0 14y ago
        I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.
    - pi18n 14y ago
      I'm fine with advertisements in desktop apps. Those guys have to make money. But I think there should be a way to pay a fee and forcibly remove them even if the developer didn't code for it. It's your machine, after all.
      - yareally 14y ago
        There's ads in Microsoft bundled apps as well[1], not just third party developers. [1] http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/microsoft-cheapens-windows-8-ads http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/microsoft-cheapens-windows...
        MatthewPhillips 14y ago
        They're in news apps, not in the email client or web browser.
    - josephagoss 14y ago
      Are the advert-ridden applications made by Microsoft? If so that says something about how far they have fallen. Why compromise your brand when your making money on hardware and software?
    - cooldeal 14y ago
      The Ask toolbar integrates itself into IE, Firefox and Chrome. It runs even when Java doesn't and is difficult to get rid of this. So this is way different than having a couple of banner ads showing up inside the app only when the app is running and you can uninstall the app in five seconds.
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      The "advert-ridden" applications are without exception, storefronts. You enter an app who's purpose is to allow you to purchase videos or music, and then complain that there are ads there?
  - speeder 14y ago
    I just remembered that Ubuntu ships with Amazon ads on their OS search bar... Seriously, how worse stuff can get? I imagine a future. A bright future. A future where everyone sees data, with Google Glasses like technology and beyond. And thus, where they have ads in front of them all the time, you arrive home, look at your daughter in the crib, and suddenly your entire vision is plastered with a semi-transparent ad for diapers, and you blink, it goes away, and another shows up, a ad for automatic cribs with quad core processor and capable of singing and telling stories on its own.
    - kunai 14y ago
      Okay, the Ubuntu thing is really out-of-hand at this point. It really is not that big of a deal. One terminal command and they're gone. Seriously, Canonical is a company, and they have to pay their bills like the rest of us. The Amazon search isn't "spyware," it's nothing but an additional search lens, and you can turn it off.
    - jff 14y ago
      This stupid meme is getting really fucking old.
arocks 14y ago
I rarely install Java on a new machine because of their installer. It feels too maleware-ish to me. In fact, I would go out of my way to find a non-Java alternative for most software I need.
- jcromartie 14y ago
  There is a standalone install.
Surio 14y ago
[Somewhat relevant, somewhat off-topic] Commission collections and ethics aside, I actually cannot understand the venom towards Ask (its search results). I believe in keeping web searches open with multiple choices made available to users, so I actively support all viable alternatives (meaning I use Ask, Blekko, ddg, lycos, yahoo (bing) among others instead of Google for regular everyday searches). Ask search results are very much comparable to Google's, i.e., the search is not "inferior" as claimed. As for ads, google's adsense ads are just as much in-your-face as the others (ymmv), so don't think this point is such a big thing either as claimed.
- yo-mf 14y ago
  I agree that the vitriol towards Ask is unwarranted, though I do find the inclusion in the Java install to be very much in the realm of crapware.
- michaelt 14y ago
  I'd never used Ask, so after reading your post I compares a search for "cuda device to host memory copy" [1] and [2] On google I saw no ads, and the links on the first page of results usually contain the search term. On Ask there are ads, and they look very much like search results - there's no coloured background to identify them as such - and the search results contain irrelevant links to other Ask properties like "Can I Copy From Youtube? | Ask Jeeves" and "How Memory Stick | ask.co.uk/how" Personally I won't be switching from Google to Ask. I'll admit we might see different things - let me know if you'd like screenshots. [1] http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cuda+device+to+host+memory+copy http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cuda+device+to+host+memory+... [2] http://uk.ask.com/web?q=cuda+device+to+host+memory+copy http://uk.ask.com/web?q=cuda+device+to+host+memory+copy
  - Surio 14y ago
    Hi, Good show. I checked your links on Maxthon [my IE without the IE baggage] and on Firefox (default browser with ABP add-on) for comparison. 1. On FF I have ABP installed, but there were no ads on Maxthon either for Ask. Is it due to "search bubble" or something else? Not sure. However, I too use uk.ask.com for my searches like you, so the 'bubble' should be the same for me as well. Hmmmm. 2. I got those two false positives also. But the rest of the search results were similar between both search engines (SO, rice.edu, stanford.edu, sourceforge, NVIDIA). I'll admit that I would have simply filtered those two anomalies visually and not given it a second thought. But wouldn't you say, search-for-search, the landing pages were pretty similar in the results returned (barring those two stupidities)?
nodata 14y ago
I already voted: I uninstalled Java from every Windows PC I have.
- SquareWheel 14y ago
  The beauty of cross-platform support is you can uninstall it from every device you have!
blibble 14y ago
I can sure see Oracle responding to a petition on the Internet!
- WhaleBiologist 14y ago
  Ah, internet petitions. The best way to feel good about doing absolutely nothing.
- joeblau 14y ago
  This is what I was trying to figure out. Say they get a quarter million signatures; does that mean Oracle will remove the Ask toolbar? I highly doubt it.
meaty 14y ago
You mean: stop bundling crapware with our crapware! Note: I have no problem with Java on the server or client, just the applet and browser plugin model.
- asveikau 14y ago
  I remember a time when java applets were cool. I don't think it's a bad idea entirely, just dated, and eclipsed by other technologies.
  - camperman 14y ago
    Perhaps eclipsed is not the best choice of words here :)
rsobers 14y ago
Enterprises will put up with almost anything, including this type of bullshit. The cost of switching is far too great. Same goes for lots of Java devs who make their living off the Oracle ecosystem. Also, probably most consumers that install Java don't realize how crappy this tactic is.
bigiain 14y ago
Maybe someone (and by "someone" I of course mean "not me!" - my own internet nerd-rage falls well short of doing this, not being much of a Windows user) should write, maintain, and SEO/social-media the hell out of a "Java crap-ware un-installer", which prominently advertises MS-SQL, SAP, and perhaps Postgres while it does it's uninstalling… Then get all the geeks to start telling their bosses "Oh, Java's hijacked your search again? No problem, just search for the "Java Bundled Software Uninstaller" and download it and run it!"
- johnminter 14y ago
  Crapware un-installer? Sounds more like a crapware exchanger with Postgres tacked on...
tobiasu 14y ago
On the contrary, please continue. Improve it by adding BonziBuddy and friends. Please please please ruin your already non-existent reputation, Oracle. Help ordinary people who have no idea what Oracle is, connect your name with spam and spyware (and security problems, ofc).
- tatsuke95 14y ago
  Hear, hear. Oracle has the right to bundle whatever crap-ware they want. If that sullies their reputation or draws out alternatives, that's a good thing.
  - jtheory 14y ago
    Can we just wait until real alternatives exist before letting client-side Java completely self-destruct? My problem is that as of now, they don't.
    - tracker1 14y ago
      You mean besides Python, .Net and a host of other runtime environments that are cross platform and run with minimal effort without being distributed with shovel-ware? As for .Net, I've found Mono to be pretty easy to target for as a cross-platform runtime. The browser plugin has itself now surpassed Flash and Acrobat as a consistent exploit point and security weakness... On that front, quite a number of browsers can accomplish most of what Java is and has been used for in the browser with JS.
      - jtheory 14y ago
        Cross-platform development is in a better place now than it was when Java first tried to tackle that challenge. I'm not a huge fan of maintaining installed software, though -- if you have a silent auto-updater, that's not bad, but otherwise you're going to be either annoying people with frequent updates, or supporting (often accidentally) scores of old versions all the time. What else is there besides Java that can run in the browser and do audio recording, MIDI input, realtime audio DSP, etc.? Obviously not everyone wants fancy audio capabilities in the browser, but I imagine there are plenty of other "niche" capabilities that other people need that are impossible in the browser w/o Java. I do get a sense now that we're going to see the Java security hole largely closed (thanks to browser limitations and Oracle fixes), but the damage has certainly been done.
nnnnni 14y ago
Go to http://www.ninite.com http://www.ninite.com and get the Java installer from there. It's malware-free and streamlined.
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  Only if you implicitly trust ninite.
  - eli 14y ago
    Personally, I'd take that deal.
    - monochromatic 14y ago
      The devil you know is... worse than the devil you don't?
      - sp332 14y ago
        I am at least a potential customer of ninite's, so they have some incentive not to screw me over. Not so much with Oracle.
      - eli 14y ago
        Not really. I trust both companies well enough to install software downloaded from their servers. But I don't want a pointless installer that tries to trick me into crapware. So Ninite is the clear winner there.
  - swies 14y ago
    We're good guys, it's OK. :) Seriously though, we'd lose all our Ninite Pro customers if we pulled any crap with our installations. Since the free version is our marketing department we'd be idiots to mess that up too.
- urza 14y ago
  But does it solve the annoying java updater problem?
DrinkWater 14y ago
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell no, i am not going to sign this. Like what is it going to change?
drostie 14y ago
"As you know people, as you learn about things, you realize that these generalizations we have are, virtually to a generalization, false. Well, except for this one, as it turns out. What you think of Oracle, is even truer than you think it is. There has been no entity in human history with less complexity or nuance to it than Oracle. And I gotta say, as someone who has seen that complexity for my entire life, it's very hard to get used to that idea. It's like, 'surely this is more complicated!' but it's like: Wow, this is really simple! This company is very straightforward, in its defense. This company is about one man, his alter-ego, and what he wants to inflict upon humanity -- that's it! ...Ship mediocrity, inflict misery, lie our asses off, screw our customers, and make a whole shitload of money. Yeah... you talk to Oracle, it's like, 'no, we don't fucking make dreams happen -- we make money!' ...You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle." -- Bryan Cantrill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc
- brudgers 14y ago
  This rant isn't even relevant to the complaint at hand...unless the point we are supposed to take away is that Oracle's attempt to collect data about its consumer market segment is mediocre. That is a legitimate critique. Oracle's attempt is pretty lame in comparison to the methods of their tech peers. Apple, Microsoft and Google ship entire mobile operating systems filled with software to collect data and have built vast app stores filled with spyware that does not offer the user a chance to opt out. But what makes Oracle's acts so lame is that the actually respect enterprise and don't bake the spyware in. Their peers, on the other hand, push BYOD.
  - drostie 14y ago
    I found it relevant because the link in question is a petition addressed to Larry Ellison about an Oracle business practice which was directed towards making money, at the expense of serving the userbase. I put it here precisely because it articulates why this petition might be, even moreso than other petitions, a futile exercise. The success of a petition fundamentally depends on two things: a receptive audience, and a bunch of people willing to make a little effort to say "me, too."
magoon 14y ago
1) Ask Toolbar is about as mild a bundle-in as it gets. 2) You can set Java update mode to manual. 3) Chrome (and possibly another browser) asks permission before using Java on any page, so I consider it a low-risk vector for drive-bys.
- ihsw 14y ago
  1 and 2 are opt-out while 3 is opt-in, they should all be opt-in.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    Absolutely disagree on #2. The application should not have to ask for permission to update, especially given the security climate that Java lives in. If you have to ask the average user for permission to update, updates won't get done. It's that simple. Oracle should take a page from Chrome's book, here. Update silently in the background, and then notify if a restart or a relaunch is required to effect the change.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
Couldn't someone just build OpenJDK for Windows and offer it as an alternative install? Because, I'll tell you what, I sure didn't get any crapware when I typed `sudo apt-get install openjdk-7-jdk`.
- calpaterson 14y ago
  The problem is that the OpenJDK has problems with graphical toolkits, specifically Swing. Intellij (Java IDE with a lot of Swing) runs a lot worse under the OpenJDK than under the Sun's JVM. I might be wrong, but I don't think this has changed recently.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    I keep hearing this and I can't find any examples myself. I use IntelliJ occasionally and haven't had any issues using it with OpenJDK 7, though it does warn me IIRC. Similarly, with Minecraft, I've had no issues, though I'm not an avid player by any means. Either way, it'd be a nice way to give Oracle the middle finger about this.
  - mdellabitta 14y ago
    For a while, using OpenJDK was the only way to get proper font smoothing on Linux in IntelliJ. It doesn't display any warnings anymore and works fine with OpenJDK now.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      "proper"? Teach me your magic, my Java IDEs still stand out like sore thumbs compared to ST2/gedit/vim/etc.
- ghshephard 14y ago
  OpenJDK isn't broadly supported by some important commercial packages. Atlassian, for one, requires the Sun/Oracle JDK. https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/JIRAKB/OpenJDK+is+not+supported https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/JIRAKB/OpenJDK+is+n...
huhtenberg 14y ago
Larry is saving up for another Hawaii island. Every penny counts.
imglorp 14y ago
If you're reading this, you're probably too small. I believe ORCL wants to drive off all their nuisance D and E customers, which is all the riffraff not paying them $50m/yr. After taking over Sun, they've moved all the good stuff behind a paywall, jacked the cost of legacy products and of supporting them, added onerous contracts with stiff penalties. For example, if you ever drop support, there's a big fine to rejoin. Another example is if you're an OEM they make it very very hard to simply sell their stuff. My $work is an OEM that also uses several products ORCL bought that used to be okay, but now we're getting off them before the sleaze and expense kills us. So Java is probably one of those standalone business units they need but hope it will make a little profit of its own. The first attempt to monetize, sue GOOG, didn't go so good if you recall.
- cmiles74 14y ago
  I believe the crapware bundling was started by Sun, it predates acquisition.
  - eitland 14y ago
    Most of the time Sun just used it to advertise OpenOffice which was their own product. Does anyone remember if Sun at any time bundled adware or other forms of crapware, esp. using deceptive tactics?
    - flomo 14y ago
      Sun Java included either the Google or Yahoo browser toolbar, and IIRC it prompted you about an antivirus program for a while.
      - eitland 14y ago
        Thanks. I was obviously looking at Sun through rose colored shades
Eliezer 14y ago
Are you offering to pay for Java development and maintenance? I mean... someone has to. How is this not a case of demanding things for free? If the petition were asking Oracle to establish a nonprofit that could support Java and offering to pay the first $10,000 toward it, I'd have a quite different reaction. But this seems to me no different from agitating for "free healthcare" without even mentioning who might pay for it, just, "it should be free!"
- bornhuetter 14y ago
  The petition doesn't ask for it to be free. Personally I have no problems with them including adverts, and they can make money by providing additional tools and services. The problem is that they are bundling borderline malware, using deceptive techniques.
- omershapira 14y ago
  To be fair, Oracle is (or was planning on) making heaps of money out of Java for business. Client-side Java seems like less than a portion of their plan to start with (anyone who mentions JavaFX here gets banned from the internet) - I mean, start with hiring a designer for the download page. This disrespect to users is exactly why they're treating it that way. If it's not that important to them, might as well import com.oracle.money-making-addon; No big deal either way. Anyway, as someone who regularly writes software for artists and designers with Java, I lately find myself avoiding JVM-based workflow on the client-side. It's just too much of a hassle for anyone I work with.
  - skyebook 14y ago
    Agreed, I'm a big fan of Java and have written client software with it but the annoyances are rapidly beginning to outweigh the benefits. Bad press, awful UI support on OS X, Web Start's seeming disappearing/reappearing act... What's the point anymore?
    - chc 14y ago
      What do you like instead? AFAIK there really isn't any good cross-platform client software development environment, particularly if you care about the Mac. My impression is that Java is no more or less crap than everything else.
Apreche 14y ago
Petition: Programmers, stop using the Oracle versions of Java. Too many of your Java programs only work properly with Oracle JVM, etc. Instead, standardize on another one of the Java implementations so that it can become the premiere implementation and really screw with Oracle.
- jwr 14y ago
  Some of us (especially in the performance-oriented crowd, or people using large heaps) really have no choice here.
  - mdellabitta 14y ago
    Zing? Not that that really stands a chance of becoming the new standard because of licensing costs.
  - pepr 14y ago
    I'm curious, are other Java implementations (e.g. OpenJDK) really that bad? I mean, quite a lot of influential/resourceful companies are behind it, are they unwilling or unable to improve it?
    - bunderbunder 14y ago
      The OpenJDK project is run by Oracle.
- jcromartie 14y ago
  Having done a bit of Clojure and some server-side Java here and there: what depends on an Oracle JVM? I think I've always used open versions...
- fierarul 14y ago
  Which other Java implementations? Apache's is abandoned. OpenJDK is basically still Oracle. What's left? IBM's JDK?
  - 14y ago
brudgers 14y ago
This petition is complaining about the neighbor on your left letting his dog crap in your yard, when the neighbor on the right is running a meth lab. We are carrying around phones filled with spyware to track what we listen to, watch and read an where we do it. How hard is it to discern even our sleep habits? We put them on the charger beside the bed at night and tune in to Pandora. If our phones can't tell if we're sleeping around or alcoholics already, it won't be long until they can. Like most petitions this one is a distraction. It keeps our energy focused on the wrong part of a larger issue and one where any leverage we have cannot create fundamental change.
- freehunter 14y ago
  And what do you propose Microsoft or Apple would do with the knowledge that I'm an alcoholic who is cheating on my wife? Why would they care? They're in business to make money, and there's not much money in extortion, not for long. If my phone called my wife automatically to tell her where I was and what I was doing, it wouldn't be long before no one bought that phone and Apple went out of business from the privacy lawsuits. Yeah, we carry devices that are spying on us. Why do they spy? To sell us more stuff. They don't try to hide that fact. Your fearmongering is off topic here, and fairly irrelevant elsewhere too.
  - sp332 14y ago
    They will make money from your data regardless of whether it "outs" you to your wife or not. They have no respect for your privacy which means they will sell out some of their userbase (or other people they happen to have data on) if it will make them money.
  - brudgers 14y ago
    "Why do they spy? To sell us more stuff." They spy because they can. They spy because the companies involved believe that the data they collect has value. They spy because the companies involved believe that the data they collect might have even more value in the future. The companies involved aren't in the business of selling you stuff. They sell data about you to others. Sure that might be a retailer of Hello Kitty backpacks with scenes of unicorns shitting rainbows. It might be a presidential campaign. It might be a government - and in that case, the value exchanged might be trade privileges rather than cash. Large commercial ventures willing to harm many people for the sake of profit are not unknown to history e.g. the East India Company and International Association of the Congo. Likewise, industries adopting standard practices which do so - e.g. tetra-ethyl lead. I may be wrong. But I don't think that just because I live in the US corporations have any more respect for my human dignity than they do for the citizens of Honduras or Pakistan or Albania.
Skoofoo 14y ago
This is just treating a symptom of a disease.
urza 14y ago
Few days ago I was watching a movie and in the middle the java-wants-your-presmission-for-update popup just appeared over my movie.. Thats it. Enough is enough. Java is the most annoying and probably most unsecure thing on my computer.. I started removing programs that need java and replacing them with native alternatives.. the last one remaining is KSG client ( http://www.gokgs.com/ http://www.gokgs.com/ ) - it will be a tough one, I dont want to give up playing GO on my favourite server.. but.. as long as the java installer/updater behaves this way.. I will not tolerate it on my computer.
martinced 14y ago
With, what, 3 to 6 million Java programmers I think it's going to be very difficult to get 250 000 signatures.
alpeb 14y ago
The latest JavaFX release, which is the new way of building java desktop apps, encourages you to bundle the java runtime in your app, which gives you a lot of benefits including avoiding the problem discussed here. It's a wonderful platform I encourage everybody to look into.
dschiptsov 14y ago
I think "with Java" is somehow tautological, and redundant.)
gtani 14y ago
for x86 Windows 32-bit (offline install), not entirely satisfactory if you need 64-bit but still http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5115058 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5115058
foohbarbaz 14y ago
Meh. Let this kill the default Java install on Windows. When I need to deliver an app written in Java to the end user I just include my own JRE. You have to do it pretty much anyway in order to guarantee that your app works regardless of quirks of particular system/installation.
csense 14y ago
How easy would it be for someone else to make an OpenJDK build with Windows installer and auto-updater, but no crapware?

317 points by lagerstedt 14y ago

Can anyone please tell me why Oracle is doing that? I don't get it, it seems to me that the amount of unhappy people would eclipse any penny they might earn with such cheap tactics, it is not like this would give them a 10% profit increase.

josephagoss 14y ago
Oracle don't care about happy people, and a lack of happy people dealing with Oracle has not stopped their massive profits so why would they start now? I think this is extra worse than normal bundling, because its a friggin platform! A basis for applications, it smells as bad as Microsoft asking to install a toolbar during the OS install.
- yankcrime 14y ago
  By bundling advert-ridden applications with their latest OS, Microsoft aren't really all that far off the mark from your comment.
  - andyjohnson0 14y ago
    Are these applications really bundled by Microsoft or are they pre-installed [1] by OEMs that sell Win8 with their hardware? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-installed_software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-installed_software
    - yankcrime 14y ago
      If you do a clean install of Windows 8, several of the bundled applications - such as Weather - have adverts placed in them.
      - andyjohnson0 14y ago
        I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.
  - pi18n 14y ago
    I'm fine with advertisements in desktop apps. Those guys have to make money. But I think there should be a way to pay a fee and forcibly remove them even if the developer didn't code for it. It's your machine, after all.
    - yareally 14y ago
      There's ads in Microsoft bundled apps as well[1], not just third party developers. [1] http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/microsoft-cheapens-windows-8-ads http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/microsoft-cheapens-windows...
      - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
        They're in news apps, not in the email client or web browser.
  - josephagoss 14y ago
    Are the advert-ridden applications made by Microsoft? If so that says something about how far they have fallen. Why compromise your brand when your making money on hardware and software?
  - cooldeal 14y ago
    The Ask toolbar integrates itself into IE, Firefox and Chrome. It runs even when Java doesn't and is difficult to get rid of this. So this is way different than having a couple of banner ads showing up inside the app only when the app is running and you can uninstall the app in five seconds.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    The "advert-ridden" applications are without exception, storefronts. You enter an app who's purpose is to allow you to purchase videos or music, and then complain that there are ads there?
- speeder 14y ago
  I just remembered that Ubuntu ships with Amazon ads on their OS search bar... Seriously, how worse stuff can get? I imagine a future. A bright future. A future where everyone sees data, with Google Glasses like technology and beyond. And thus, where they have ads in front of them all the time, you arrive home, look at your daughter in the crib, and suddenly your entire vision is plastered with a semi-transparent ad for diapers, and you blink, it goes away, and another shows up, a ad for automatic cribs with quad core processor and capable of singing and telling stories on its own.
  - kunai 14y ago
    Okay, the Ubuntu thing is really out-of-hand at this point. It really is not that big of a deal. One terminal command and they're gone. Seriously, Canonical is a company, and they have to pay their bills like the rest of us. The Amazon search isn't "spyware," it's nothing but an additional search lens, and you can turn it off.
  - jff 14y ago
    This stupid meme is getting really fucking old.

arocks 14y ago

I rarely install Java on a new machine because of their installer. It feels too maleware-ish to me. In fact, I would go out of my way to find a non-Java alternative for most software I need.

jcromartie 14y ago
There is a standalone install.

Surio 14y ago

[Somewhat relevant, somewhat off-topic] Commission collections and ethics aside, I actually cannot understand the venom towards Ask (its search results). I believe in keeping web searches open with multiple choices made available to users, so I actively support all viable alternatives (meaning I use Ask, Blekko, ddg, lycos, yahoo (bing) among others instead of Google for regular everyday searches). Ask search results are very much comparable to Google's, i.e., the search is not "inferior" as claimed. As for ads, google's adsense ads are just as much in-your-face as the others (ymmv), so don't think this point is such a big thing either as claimed.

yo-mf 14y ago
I agree that the vitriol towards Ask is unwarranted, though I do find the inclusion in the Java install to be very much in the realm of crapware.
michaelt 14y ago
I'd never used Ask, so after reading your post I compares a search for "cuda device to host memory copy" [1] and [2] On google I saw no ads, and the links on the first page of results usually contain the search term. On Ask there are ads, and they look very much like search results - there's no coloured background to identify them as such - and the search results contain irrelevant links to other Ask properties like "Can I Copy From Youtube? | Ask Jeeves" and "How Memory Stick | ask.co.uk/how" Personally I won't be switching from Google to Ask. I'll admit we might see different things - let me know if you'd like screenshots. [1] http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cuda+device+to+host+memory+copy http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cuda+device+to+host+memory+... [2] http://uk.ask.com/web?q=cuda+device+to+host+memory+copy http://uk.ask.com/web?q=cuda+device+to+host+memory+copy
- Surio 14y ago
  Hi, Good show. I checked your links on Maxthon [my IE without the IE baggage] and on Firefox (default browser with ABP add-on) for comparison. 1. On FF I have ABP installed, but there were no ads on Maxthon either for Ask. Is it due to "search bubble" or something else? Not sure. However, I too use uk.ask.com for my searches like you, so the 'bubble' should be the same for me as well. Hmmmm. 2. I got those two false positives also. But the rest of the search results were similar between both search engines (SO, rice.edu, stanford.edu, sourceforge, NVIDIA). I'll admit that I would have simply filtered those two anomalies visually and not given it a second thought. But wouldn't you say, search-for-search, the landing pages were pretty similar in the results returned (barring those two stupidities)?

nodata 14y ago

I already voted: I uninstalled Java from every Windows PC I have.

SquareWheel 14y ago
The beauty of cross-platform support is you can uninstall it from every device you have!

blibble 14y ago

I can sure see Oracle responding to a petition on the Internet!

WhaleBiologist 14y ago
Ah, internet petitions. The best way to feel good about doing absolutely nothing.
joeblau 14y ago
This is what I was trying to figure out. Say they get a quarter million signatures; does that mean Oracle will remove the Ask toolbar? I highly doubt it.

meaty 14y ago

You mean: stop bundling crapware with our crapware! Note: I have no problem with Java on the server or client, just the applet and browser plugin model.

asveikau 14y ago
I remember a time when java applets were cool. I don't think it's a bad idea entirely, just dated, and eclipsed by other technologies.
- camperman 14y ago
  Perhaps eclipsed is not the best choice of words here :)

rsobers 14y ago

Enterprises will put up with almost anything, including this type of bullshit. The cost of switching is far too great. Same goes for lots of Java devs who make their living off the Oracle ecosystem. Also, probably most consumers that install Java don't realize how crappy this tactic is.

bigiain 14y ago

Maybe someone (and by "someone" I of course mean "not me!" - my own internet nerd-rage falls well short of doing this, not being much of a Windows user) should write, maintain, and SEO/social-media the hell out of a "Java crap-ware un-installer", which prominently advertises MS-SQL, SAP, and perhaps Postgres while it does it's uninstalling… Then get all the geeks to start telling their bosses "Oh, Java's hijacked your search again? No problem, just search for the "Java Bundled Software Uninstaller" and download it and run it!"

johnminter 14y ago
Crapware un-installer? Sounds more like a crapware exchanger with Postgres tacked on...

tobiasu 14y ago

On the contrary, please continue. Improve it by adding BonziBuddy and friends. Please please please ruin your already non-existent reputation, Oracle. Help ordinary people who have no idea what Oracle is, connect your name with spam and spyware (and security problems, ofc).

tatsuke95 14y ago
Hear, hear. Oracle has the right to bundle whatever crap-ware they want. If that sullies their reputation or draws out alternatives, that's a good thing.
- jtheory 14y ago
  Can we just wait until real alternatives exist before letting client-side Java completely self-destruct? My problem is that as of now, they don't.
  - tracker1 14y ago
    You mean besides Python, .Net and a host of other runtime environments that are cross platform and run with minimal effort without being distributed with shovel-ware? As for .Net, I've found Mono to be pretty easy to target for as a cross-platform runtime. The browser plugin has itself now surpassed Flash and Acrobat as a consistent exploit point and security weakness... On that front, quite a number of browsers can accomplish most of what Java is and has been used for in the browser with JS.
    - jtheory 14y ago
      Cross-platform development is in a better place now than it was when Java first tried to tackle that challenge. I'm not a huge fan of maintaining installed software, though -- if you have a silent auto-updater, that's not bad, but otherwise you're going to be either annoying people with frequent updates, or supporting (often accidentally) scores of old versions all the time. What else is there besides Java that can run in the browser and do audio recording, MIDI input, realtime audio DSP, etc.? Obviously not everyone wants fancy audio capabilities in the browser, but I imagine there are plenty of other "niche" capabilities that other people need that are impossible in the browser w/o Java. I do get a sense now that we're going to see the Java security hole largely closed (thanks to browser limitations and Oracle fixes), but the damage has certainly been done.

nnnnni 14y ago

Go to http://www.ninite.com http://www.ninite.com and get the Java installer from there. It's malware-free and streamlined.

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
Only if you implicitly trust ninite.
- eli 14y ago
  Personally, I'd take that deal.
  - monochromatic 14y ago
    The devil you know is... worse than the devil you don't?
    - sp332 14y ago
      I am at least a potential customer of ninite's, so they have some incentive not to screw me over. Not so much with Oracle.
    - eli 14y ago
      Not really. I trust both companies well enough to install software downloaded from their servers. But I don't want a pointless installer that tries to trick me into crapware. So Ninite is the clear winner there.
- swies 14y ago
  We're good guys, it's OK. :) Seriously though, we'd lose all our Ninite Pro customers if we pulled any crap with our installations. Since the free version is our marketing department we'd be idiots to mess that up too.
urza 14y ago
But does it solve the annoying java updater problem?

DrinkWater 14y ago

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell no, i am not going to sign this. Like what is it going to change?

drostie 14y ago

"As you know people, as you learn about things, you realize that these generalizations we have are, virtually to a generalization, false. Well, except for this one, as it turns out. What you think of Oracle, is even truer than you think it is. There has been no entity in human history with less complexity or nuance to it than Oracle. And I gotta say, as someone who has seen that complexity for my entire life, it's very hard to get used to that idea. It's like, 'surely this is more complicated!' but it's like: Wow, this is really simple! This company is very straightforward, in its defense. This company is about one man, his alter-ego, and what he wants to inflict upon humanity -- that's it! ...Ship mediocrity, inflict misery, lie our asses off, screw our customers, and make a whole shitload of money. Yeah... you talk to Oracle, it's like, 'no, we don't fucking make dreams happen -- we make money!' ...You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle." -- Bryan Cantrill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc

brudgers 14y ago
This rant isn't even relevant to the complaint at hand...unless the point we are supposed to take away is that Oracle's attempt to collect data about its consumer market segment is mediocre. That is a legitimate critique. Oracle's attempt is pretty lame in comparison to the methods of their tech peers. Apple, Microsoft and Google ship entire mobile operating systems filled with software to collect data and have built vast app stores filled with spyware that does not offer the user a chance to opt out. But what makes Oracle's acts so lame is that the actually respect enterprise and don't bake the spyware in. Their peers, on the other hand, push BYOD.
- drostie 14y ago
  I found it relevant because the link in question is a petition addressed to Larry Ellison about an Oracle business practice which was directed towards making money, at the expense of serving the userbase. I put it here precisely because it articulates why this petition might be, even moreso than other petitions, a futile exercise. The success of a petition fundamentally depends on two things: a receptive audience, and a bunch of people willing to make a little effort to say "me, too."

magoon 14y ago

1) Ask Toolbar is about as mild a bundle-in as it gets. 2) You can set Java update mode to manual. 3) Chrome (and possibly another browser) asks permission before using Java on any page, so I consider it a low-risk vector for drive-bys.

ihsw 14y ago
1 and 2 are opt-out while 3 is opt-in, they should all be opt-in.
- Karunamon 14y ago
  Absolutely disagree on #2. The application should not have to ask for permission to update, especially given the security climate that Java lives in. If you have to ask the average user for permission to update, updates won't get done. It's that simple. Oracle should take a page from Chrome's book, here. Update silently in the background, and then notify if a restart or a relaunch is required to effect the change.

drivebyacct2 14y ago

Couldn't someone just build OpenJDK for Windows and offer it as an alternative install? Because, I'll tell you what, I sure didn't get any crapware when I typed `sudo apt-get install openjdk-7-jdk`.

calpaterson 14y ago
The problem is that the OpenJDK has problems with graphical toolkits, specifically Swing. Intellij (Java IDE with a lot of Swing) runs a lot worse under the OpenJDK than under the Sun's JVM. I might be wrong, but I don't think this has changed recently.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  I keep hearing this and I can't find any examples myself. I use IntelliJ occasionally and haven't had any issues using it with OpenJDK 7, though it does warn me IIRC. Similarly, with Minecraft, I've had no issues, though I'm not an avid player by any means. Either way, it'd be a nice way to give Oracle the middle finger about this.
- mdellabitta 14y ago
  For a while, using OpenJDK was the only way to get proper font smoothing on Linux in IntelliJ. It doesn't display any warnings anymore and works fine with OpenJDK now.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    "proper"? Teach me your magic, my Java IDEs still stand out like sore thumbs compared to ST2/gedit/vim/etc.
ghshephard 14y ago
OpenJDK isn't broadly supported by some important commercial packages. Atlassian, for one, requires the Sun/Oracle JDK. https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/JIRAKB/OpenJDK+is+not+supported https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/JIRAKB/OpenJDK+is+n...

huhtenberg 14y ago

Larry is saving up for another Hawaii island. Every penny counts.

imglorp 14y ago

If you're reading this, you're probably too small. I believe ORCL wants to drive off all their nuisance D and E customers, which is all the riffraff not paying them $50m/yr. After taking over Sun, they've moved all the good stuff behind a paywall, jacked the cost of legacy products and of supporting them, added onerous contracts with stiff penalties. For example, if you ever drop support, there's a big fine to rejoin. Another example is if you're an OEM they make it very very hard to simply sell their stuff. My $work is an OEM that also uses several products ORCL bought that used to be okay, but now we're getting off them before the sleaze and expense kills us. So Java is probably one of those standalone business units they need but hope it will make a little profit of its own. The first attempt to monetize, sue GOOG, didn't go so good if you recall.

cmiles74 14y ago
I believe the crapware bundling was started by Sun, it predates acquisition.
- eitland 14y ago
  Most of the time Sun just used it to advertise OpenOffice which was their own product. Does anyone remember if Sun at any time bundled adware or other forms of crapware, esp. using deceptive tactics?
  - flomo 14y ago
    Sun Java included either the Google or Yahoo browser toolbar, and IIRC it prompted you about an antivirus program for a while.
    - eitland 14y ago
      Thanks. I was obviously looking at Sun through rose colored shades

Eliezer 14y ago

Are you offering to pay for Java development and maintenance? I mean... someone has to. How is this not a case of demanding things for free? If the petition were asking Oracle to establish a nonprofit that could support Java and offering to pay the first $10,000 toward it, I'd have a quite different reaction. But this seems to me no different from agitating for "free healthcare" without even mentioning who might pay for it, just, "it should be free!"

bornhuetter 14y ago
The petition doesn't ask for it to be free. Personally I have no problems with them including adverts, and they can make money by providing additional tools and services. The problem is that they are bundling borderline malware, using deceptive techniques.
omershapira 14y ago
To be fair, Oracle is (or was planning on) making heaps of money out of Java for business. Client-side Java seems like less than a portion of their plan to start with (anyone who mentions JavaFX here gets banned from the internet) - I mean, start with hiring a designer for the download page. This disrespect to users is exactly why they're treating it that way. If it's not that important to them, might as well import com.oracle.money-making-addon; No big deal either way. Anyway, as someone who regularly writes software for artists and designers with Java, I lately find myself avoiding JVM-based workflow on the client-side. It's just too much of a hassle for anyone I work with.
- skyebook 14y ago
  Agreed, I'm a big fan of Java and have written client software with it but the annoyances are rapidly beginning to outweigh the benefits. Bad press, awful UI support on OS X, Web Start's seeming disappearing/reappearing act... What's the point anymore?
  - chc 14y ago
    What do you like instead? AFAIK there really isn't any good cross-platform client software development environment, particularly if you care about the Mac. My impression is that Java is no more or less crap than everything else.

Apreche 14y ago

Petition: Programmers, stop using the Oracle versions of Java. Too many of your Java programs only work properly with Oracle JVM, etc. Instead, standardize on another one of the Java implementations so that it can become the premiere implementation and really screw with Oracle.

jwr 14y ago
Some of us (especially in the performance-oriented crowd, or people using large heaps) really have no choice here.
- mdellabitta 14y ago
  Zing? Not that that really stands a chance of becoming the new standard because of licensing costs.
- pepr 14y ago
  I'm curious, are other Java implementations (e.g. OpenJDK) really that bad? I mean, quite a lot of influential/resourceful companies are behind it, are they unwilling or unable to improve it?
  - bunderbunder 14y ago
    The OpenJDK project is run by Oracle.
jcromartie 14y ago
Having done a bit of Clojure and some server-side Java here and there: what depends on an Oracle JVM? I think I've always used open versions...
fierarul 14y ago
Which other Java implementations? Apache's is abandoned. OpenJDK is basically still Oracle. What's left? IBM's JDK?
- 14y ago

brudgers 14y ago

This petition is complaining about the neighbor on your left letting his dog crap in your yard, when the neighbor on the right is running a meth lab. We are carrying around phones filled with spyware to track what we listen to, watch and read an where we do it. How hard is it to discern even our sleep habits? We put them on the charger beside the bed at night and tune in to Pandora. If our phones can't tell if we're sleeping around or alcoholics already, it won't be long until they can. Like most petitions this one is a distraction. It keeps our energy focused on the wrong part of a larger issue and one where any leverage we have cannot create fundamental change.

freehunter 14y ago
And what do you propose Microsoft or Apple would do with the knowledge that I'm an alcoholic who is cheating on my wife? Why would they care? They're in business to make money, and there's not much money in extortion, not for long. If my phone called my wife automatically to tell her where I was and what I was doing, it wouldn't be long before no one bought that phone and Apple went out of business from the privacy lawsuits. Yeah, we carry devices that are spying on us. Why do they spy? To sell us more stuff. They don't try to hide that fact. Your fearmongering is off topic here, and fairly irrelevant elsewhere too.
- sp332 14y ago
  They will make money from your data regardless of whether it "outs" you to your wife or not. They have no respect for your privacy which means they will sell out some of their userbase (or other people they happen to have data on) if it will make them money.
- brudgers 14y ago
  "Why do they spy? To sell us more stuff." They spy because they can. They spy because the companies involved believe that the data they collect has value. They spy because the companies involved believe that the data they collect might have even more value in the future. The companies involved aren't in the business of selling you stuff. They sell data about you to others. Sure that might be a retailer of Hello Kitty backpacks with scenes of unicorns shitting rainbows. It might be a presidential campaign. It might be a government - and in that case, the value exchanged might be trade privileges rather than cash. Large commercial ventures willing to harm many people for the sake of profit are not unknown to history e.g. the East India Company and International Association of the Congo. Likewise, industries adopting standard practices which do so - e.g. tetra-ethyl lead. I may be wrong. But I don't think that just because I live in the US corporations have any more respect for my human dignity than they do for the citizens of Honduras or Pakistan or Albania.

Skoofoo 14y ago

This is just treating a symptom of a disease.

urza 14y ago

Few days ago I was watching a movie and in the middle the java-wants-your-presmission-for-update popup just appeared over my movie.. Thats it. Enough is enough. Java is the most annoying and probably most unsecure thing on my computer.. I started removing programs that need java and replacing them with native alternatives.. the last one remaining is KSG client ( http://www.gokgs.com/ http://www.gokgs.com/ ) - it will be a tough one, I dont want to give up playing GO on my favourite server.. but.. as long as the java installer/updater behaves this way.. I will not tolerate it on my computer.

martinced 14y ago

With, what, 3 to 6 million Java programmers I think it's going to be very difficult to get 250 000 signatures.

alpeb 14y ago

The latest JavaFX release, which is the new way of building java desktop apps, encourages you to bundle the java runtime in your app, which gives you a lot of benefits including avoiding the problem discussed here. It's a wonderful platform I encourage everybody to look into.

dschiptsov 14y ago

I think "with Java" is somehow tautological, and redundant.)

gtani 14y ago

for x86 Windows 32-bit (offline install), not entirely satisfactory if you need 64-bit but still http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5115058 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5115058

foohbarbaz 14y ago

Meh. Let this kill the default Java install on Windows. When I need to deliver an app written in Java to the end user I just include my own JRE. You have to do it pretty much anyway in order to guarantee that your app works regardless of quirks of particular system/installation.

csense 14y ago

How easy would it be for someone else to make an OpenJDK build with Windows installer and auto-updater, but no crapware?