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Good that we have Chinese models now, we can host anywhere and use as much as we like without age verification. Also, what's the reason banning minors? Is AI b
by throwaw12 6d ago
Good that we have Chinese models now, we can host anywhere and use as much as we like without age verification.
Also, what's the reason banning minors? Is AI bad for mental health? If so, should companies also ban them to prevent burnout of their employees?
- techblueberry 6d agoIs AI bad for mental health? lol If so, should companies also ban them to prevent burnout of their employees? No, capitalism must be fed.
- matheusmoreira 6d agoAlways found this odd too. Somehow it's bad enough to ban children from using it, but not adults.
- layer8 6d agoAdults are assumed to be responsible for what they expose themselves to, unlike children. Mandatory warnings like for tobacco might be in order, however.
- Muhammad523 6d agoIn fact, a 17-year-old is clueless while a person one year older isn't
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- CrazyStat 6d agoIf a law is going to treat 5 year olds differently from 50 year olds then a line has to be drawn somewhere. 18 is arbitrary, but no more arbitrary than any other age you could pick.
- matheusmoreira 6d agoThe law could evaluate people as individuals instead of conjuring up some idiotic magic number.
- CrazyStat 6d agoThe whole purpose of law is to be a uniform system of justice. At best it could offer guidelines for how to evaluate people: perhaps level of education attained, demonstrated ability to take responsibility for themselves, etc. But the evaluation under those guidelines would still have to be made by humans. There is precedent for such a system, e.g. minors can petition to be emancipated which allows them to be treated in many regards like an adult.
- matheusmoreira 6d ago> perhaps level of education attained, demonstrated ability to take responsibility for themselves, etc. Yes, that is what I meant. Choosing some arbitrary magic number like 18 and declaring that anyone under that age is too dumb or too irresponsible to decide is about as stupid as declaring that anyone over 65 is incapable of decision making because they might have Alzheimer's.
- CrazyStat 5d agoOk, but this doesn’t scale well. It takes a nontrivial amount of time to evaluate each person, and it would have to be done repeatedly as they age. You would need an entire government bureaucracy devoted to it. Then people will want an appeals process for when decisions don’t go their way—both parents and children.
- Dylan16807 5d ago99% of people are probably going to use the high school diploma route and not the demonstration route, so that's basically age with extra steps.
- matheusmoreira 6d agoAnd parents are assumed to be responsible for their own children, not governments or corporations.
- layer8 6d agoI agree about corporations. But alcohol and tobacco are generally prohibited from being sold to children; do you disagree with such laws? They help ensure that the parents aren’t bypassed. I agree that children should be able to use LLMs under parental supervision.
- matheusmoreira 6d ago> But alcohol and tobacco are generally prohibited from being sold to children; do you disagree with such laws? Yes, but merely on principle. I think alcohol and tobacco should be straight up banned unconditionally. Society resists this, so they banned them for children instead and called it a day. I don't accept these ineffectual political concessions. If a thing is bad for children, then it's in all likelihood just as bad for the adults as well. So go all the way and ban it for everybody, not just children. Do it right, don't come up with these half measures that dehumanize children as a side effect.
- layer8 6d agoThere is a trade-off between freedom and keeping people safe, and there is an argument for some level of personal responsibility. I’m glad that I can drink alcohol once in a while without becoming an outlaw, even though I know the effects aren’t harmless. I also disagree with the dehumanization argument. Yes, the concrete age limits are a bit arbitrary, and actual maturity depends on the individual and is a spectrum, but regulations necessarily have to come with some level of pigeonholing. The fact that you may have to show your ID when buying alcohol isn’t dehumanizing.
- matheusmoreira 6d ago> I’m glad that I can drink alcohol once in a while without becoming an outlaw, even though I know the effects aren’t harmless. I'm sure teenagers feel the same way.
- eurothings 6d ago> Mandatory warnings like for tobacco lol that’ll work
- jbs789 6d agobrains develop with age, generally
- matheusmoreira 6d agoThat doesn't nullify a person's ability to decide for themselves.
- sdiupIGPWEfh 6d agoRight, but in this case, exposure is a work requirement, which is a bit different. While an employer isn't going to require tobacco use, work involving asbestos exposure is still a thing (removal perhaps), and an employer knowingly or negligently requiring work activity without both risk disclosure and supply of proper safety equipment would face legal action. Hence, if mandatory workplace use of AI inflicts harm, then I could imagine things playing out similarly. The damage slowly accumulates, may or may not be noticed in time, becomes difficult to pin down on a past employer, and when you finally realize you need to sue for damages, both the employer responsible and the system are rigged to drag out the process until you're hopefully old and dead before you have a chance to win your case. ...oh.
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- Aransentin 6d agoI suspect that the money they get from minors using their services is simply not worth the risk of the negative publicity from the not-unheard-of "Claude told this minor to do <bad thing>!!" articles in the media.
- wangxili1997 6d ago[flagged]
- vlyan 5d agowhich, unfortunately, empowers the professional crybullies behind such articles further. imagine the current year reaction to the Judas Priest trial. we'd have instagram newspeak like "unalive" in album titles and song lyrics from now on.
- diydsp 6d agoMost likely an identification grab. I haven't seen how anth will enforce the age restriction, but my bet is through linking all of your movements within claude to a govt id. Abt protecting minors: 19 states still permit teachers to physically hit students. In most states, children as young as 14 or 15 can be legally married (typically girls to older men) with parental consent or a judge's approval. Multiple states have "religious exemption" laws that shield parents from prosecution for withholding medical care from sick children based on religious beliefs, even in cases where children die. Some states have essentially no requirements for homeschool curriculum, testing, or welfare checks. The US incarcerates children at rates dramatically higher than comparable countries. The 2021 expanded Child Tax Credit cut child poverty roughly in half. It was allowed to expire in 2022, and child poverty immediately rebounded. Millions of American children have inadequate or no healthcare. Medicaid coverage varies wildly by state. States that rejected Medicaid expansion have measurably worse child health outcomes. This is political choice, not necessity. An estimated 500,000+ American children still have elevated blood lead levels, primarily from lead paint in older housing and lead water pipes. Roughly 1.4 million American children experience homelessness in any given year. Almost no meaningful regulation of what can be advertised to minors online. Firearms became the leading cause of death for American children in 2020. Car crashes are still one of the top three killers of children. schools. Children who live and go to school near freeways have measurably worse health outcomes across their lifetimes: asthma, cognitive impairment, cardiovascular problems in adulthood. Universal free school lunch demonstrably improves child health and academic outcomes. Most states don't have it. ...but official(+) LLM access restriction is our priority? Hahahaha tell me another one. (+) offline models are as easy as installing ollama.
- diydsp 4d agoGrateful for the downvotes. I'll limit my sympathy for children in the future.
- varun_ch 6d ago> Also, what's the reason banning minors? Is AI bad for mental health? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_linked_to_chatbots#Suicides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_linked_to_chatbots#Suic...
- yunaflox 6d agoThree words, anything but Claude.
- dartharva 6d agoCompliance theater. Now they can get away without having to bother setting guardrails for child safety.
- rollypoley 6d agoI think it has more to do with reasonable usage for school age children. NYC got the ball rolling banning AI in the classroom and if Anthropic is smart it will create a classroom version (ie. seperate Claude accounts for minors) with additional guard rails and watermarks to prevent YOLOing homework assignments and projects. Schools are not equipped to have these discussions bottom-up; Anthropic would make a lot of money if it went top down in conjunction with State governments.
- fn-mote 6d agoI agree with your assertions, but… AI companies have the same fear of underage users that tobacco companies of underage smokers. > reasonable usage for school age children Comical to believe that any of these companies care. They are out to MAKE MONEY. That’s the only believable motivation for what the do.
- metalcrow 6d agoThen what's the reason behind this decision?
- walrus01 6d agoIf you'd told me 15 years ago that people would be running freely-distributed software originating from research labs in China on computers self-hosted in their own house as an alternative to authoritarian overreach and control by the US in internet-based services, I'd have told you that you were smoking some good reefer. The irony is that the authoritarian control hasn't gone away in China either, if anything it's even more advanced, the GFW and censorship regime there doesn't show any sign of letting up any time soon. Just today in my BBC news feed: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgyvk2djk4o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgyvk2djk4o
- ACCount37 6d agoAnd China controls AI too. It's just that their idea of "safety" is "ideological safety", and their idea of "alignment" is "alignment to the party line". They're cool with open weight AIs being released. As long as those AIs only ever say good things about CCP, and don't mention certain concentration camps or brutally suppressed protests.
- walrus01 6d agoI don't disagree with you on what is the top-down political priority there, but thankfully the architecture of an open weights model released in .safetensors format allows for 3rd parties to "uncensor" it. There's at least 8 different CN originated models now that after running through heretic and a few other methods will score 0 refusals on this data set of prompts: https://huggingface.co/datasets/mlabonne/harmful_behaviors https://huggingface.co/datasets/mlabonne/harmful_behaviors If we were living in a scenario where the open weight models were truly impossible to uncensor I would be significantly more skeptical of them. As a test I have an uncensored copy of qwen 3.8 27B Q8 here that will very happily discuss a myriad of negative things about the CCP.
- ACCount37 6d agoYeah, it's good that open weights models can have their "filters" busted fairly reliably. Unlike whatever bone Anthropic has to pick with the very idea of biology. But that's a consequence of how the technology works - not a consequence of China not being authoritarian about AI. They're just authoritarian about AI in different ways. Not like they dodged the "ID verification" bullshit either. They were way ahead of the western countries there. It's vile - seeing this sad excuse of "think of the children" abused to invade privacy and strip freedoms over and over and over and over again.
- reaperducer 6d agowhat's the reason banning minors? Is AI bad for mental health? I simply don't understand how you can ask that question unless you fall into one of these categories: 1. You live in a place with no access to any news source whatsoever. No newspapers. No television. No radio. No internet. 2. You're a child under the age of six. 3. You're an LLM. Every day or two there is another story posted on HN about the harmful effects of AI on minors. The level of willful ignorance here makes be thing the answer is #3.
- fn-mote 6d ago> harmful effects of AI on minors Which is dwarfed by the harmful effects of social media (engagement farming). Frankly, I’m not sure what you’re referring to. I think the articles you are talking about haven’t even been interesting enough to click on.
- matheusmoreira 6d agoEvidence of risk is not sufficient. It must always be balanced against potential benefits. Children are being unconditionally banned from using major technologies, preventing them from benefiting at all. My life would have turned out very differently if I had been banned from using computers back when I was a kid. I don't want my own kids to grow up without the same freedom I enjoyed.
- sodapopcan 6d agoI feel I would be in a much better place if I had been banned from using computers as a kid. It's all relative.
- jawilson2 6d agoEvery day there is another story about the harmful effects of AI on literally everything, including mental health, IP theft, the climate, etc. "Think of the children" is and always has been a weak excuse.
- afavour 6d ago> Is AI bad for mental health? I think there’s reasonable evidence that when used incorrectly, yes. > If so, should companies also ban them to prevent burnout of their employees? It’s not that AI the concept is harmful, it’s using it to diagnose/treat personal problems, mental issues etc. Using it to crunch some data or write some code for you isn’t really the same. I also think there’s a meaningful difference using AI in education and in the workplace. When you get a writing assignment in a class the primary purpose isn’t the words, it’s you having learned about the topic and how to express yourself. And lots of students are using AI to skip that part entirely.
- pllbnk 6d agoLLMs are the fast food for the brain. I don't know how they can be used correctly.
- micromacrofoot 6d agoWho does?
- tyre 6d agoThis is not my experience at all. Obviously I have some different usage from a teen (I doubt they’re doing much interior decorating), but it’s really an incredible resource for learning. I’ve used it to break down different Supreme Court justices’ opinions and philosophies, explain words and concepts from research papers in other domains, the aforementioned interior design (including whipping up 3d models), book recommendations, custom recipes, and figuring out who to contact to learn about a street closure in NYC. All of this in the past week. It requires rigor and pushback. You can’t trust them entirely by default, but that’s true of the web as well! They’re not the only source (augment with authoritative sources like cookbooks, your own research into topics, real live Humans), but it’s a fantastic resource for some healthy habits.
- chrisjj 6d ago> Is AI bad for mental health? Well, just look at the effect on the authors of the last few delusional "papers" from Anthropic.
- WhyNotHugo 6d agoIt might not be about banning minors and just an excuse to get government ID / biometric face scan.
- cruffle_duffle 6d agoDude, being able to run high quality models locally with cheap hardware can't some soon enough.
- PeterStuer 5d agoWould you believe it is all about the over 18s?