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Flights cancelled at UK airports due to ATC issue
- varispeed 8d agoIT sector in the UK is bargain basement. Most competent people left for countries where their talents are valued or retired.
- ifwinterco 8d agoIt's fine for fintech etc, but air traffic control software yes I imagine not so much. Likely either outsourced or done by people who are comically underpaid considering how important it is
- Cthulhu_ 8d agoIt's also huge amounts of code for very old standards
- IshKebab 8d agoYou know there was someone who tried to refactor whatever code it was that broke here and was told it was too risky.
- stouset 8d agoI’m way more often than not on the side of refactoring but there’s risks on both ends with a mission-critical service like this. Neither side is zero risk, the choice is about which option will result in fewer and less severe outages.
- IshKebab 8d agoSure, the problem is most people can only see the risks of changing code. They're completely blind to the risks of not changing it.
- dtf 8d agoNATS - the same system that crashed in August 2023 [1] due to an id clash, causing 2000 flights to be cancelled and days of chaos. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37461695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37461695
- 8by3 8d agoI briefly thought you meant the issue was NATS - https://docs.nats.io/learn/core-nats https://docs.nats.io/learn/core-nats
- Betelbuddy 8d agoIts normally always DNS (Departures Now Stalled)
- reactordev 8d agoNot TCP (Takeoff Clearance Prohibited)
- ukraina768768 8d agoIt's RST (russian state threat).
- clickety_clack 8d agoIt only affected MACs (mediocre airtraffic controllers)
- tosti 8d agoThey were causing interruptuons with TTL (Taxiing, Takeoff and Landing).
- demibabs 8d agoLol is this page written by AI?
- doublerabbit 8d agoIncluding mine. I'm not angry because my flight was cancelled. It's a pain in the arse but what really infuriates me is the "We are terribly sorry" these PR releases give. I've been on hold for three hours with British Airlines and it's "we are sorry", no you're not. "We are truly sorry for the ongoing flight disruption" is what infuriates the situation; when words have no meaning behind the phase. Pixelated hold-music I am sure is designed to make you rage further.
- basisword 8d agoWhat do you want them to say? It's an ATC issue. The airline don't know when it'll be fixed and can't do much until it is.
- exogenousdata 8d ago“We’re sorry, but our business model precludes timely responses in times of system stress. As a reminder, our shareholders are our primary concern (by law) and staffing trained humans to handle in customer support during unexpected surges isn’t something that can be supported while also funding the €0.05 per share quarterly dividend paid to British Airways share holders on June 29th of this year. We are not in a rush. If you’d like, try another airline. But they’re all the same. Beep.”
- Animats 8d ago> “We’re sorry, but our business model precludes timely responses in times of system stress." It doesn't have to be that way. Here's Haley Dragoo, former head of the New York Subway's "Twitter Division".[1] She had the sense to insist on a desk in the Rail Control Center, so she could know what was really going on. Down on the working floor, too, not up in the gallery overlooking the control room. She was a few meters from the people directly running the subway. Her point was that the MTA was "good at monologues" but didn't interact well. So she posted on the MTA's Twitter account, several hundred times a day. If someone asked a serious question, she'd answer quickly, with actual info. Not sugar-coating the info, just translating from "subway speak". (The operations people talk about location in terms of distance from a reference point at the start of the line, the signal number plate on each signal, but customers think in terms of stations.) It's very New York to do that. The MTA has dropped Twitter/X, though. Twitter/X wanted to bill them for using the Twitter/X API, and the MTA will not pay others to distribute their info. So now the MTA uses their own web site and app. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/nyregion/subway-mta-social-media-alerts.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/nyregion/subway-mta-socia...
- earth-tattoo 8d ago[flagged]
- illwrks 8d agoFor anyone stranded, read up on UK261/EU261 and your airlines application process to be reimbursed. As far as I’m aware it’s not likely to happen automatically, you need to initiate the process (and record audio/video just in case proof is needed)
- ktallett 8d agoYou won't get compensation for ATC issues, but you will be reimbursed.
- d1sxeyes 8d agoYeah but I don't think it's that legislation you'd rely on: you paid for a service they didn't deliver. Compensation yeah, only applies if the reason for the delay/cancellation was under the airline's control. Nats down is pretty clearly a reason to reject compensation claims.
- Daviey 8d agoDelays yes... But once an airline cancels the flight, they become liable.
- junofan 8d agoEh, I tried in 2017 with BA when their system went down and received nothing. There was magically a Black Lives Matter protest at Gatwick (or maybe LCY, can’t remember) on the same day, which isn’t covered apparently.
- petercooper 8d agoI believe the compensation part only kicks in if it’s the airline’s fault.
- illwrks 8d agoYou may be right. As a direct result of the NATS issue perhaps not, but any second order issues once that is resolve you might be within scope.
- foxwell_1959 8d agoGot me confused with that title, thinking what “100 seconds of flights” would look like.
- gilleain 8d agoAbout a minute and a half.
- contingencies 8d agoSorry wouldn't fit ;)
- ghk-adsf 8d ago[dead]
- johnnyApplePRNG 8d agoIn the middle of a highly geopolitically sensitive moment where there's been bombs at other European airports recently? Color me suspicious.
- heyitsmedotjayb 8d agoImmediately after UK announced sanctions on illegal settlements...
- tacheiordache 8d agoIsrael sabotagged Spain as well, I can’t believe how naive most people are in support of Israel
- heyitsmedotjayb 8d agoIts disgusting the way they weaponize migration and racism.
- somelamer567 8d agoThis would make ideal cover for a Russian hybrid sucker-punch. I've spotted Russian trolls in the comments on YouTube blaming Israel for their hybrid attacks in Germany these past few days. They have form, and they have been preparing the information environment for ongoing hybrid aggression against Europe. The key "tell" it's Putin's thugs is because if ANY act is petty, thuggish, dishonourable and implausibly deniable, Russian intelligence are involved. In any case, the perpetrators will be found and dealt with. The aggressors are dumb (otherwise they wouldn't be aggressors)... and slow learners. Ukraine can look forward to some additional aid in the coming weeks.
- heyitsmedotjayb 7d agoI think you're naive if you're blaming Russia
- dude250711 8d agoBetter for the planet though.
- dlcarrier 8d agoOcean liners use several times more fuel per passenger mile than airliners.
- dewey 8d agoThats a bit of an odd comparison as they are in pretty different categories and don’t really compete against each other.
- deleted 8d ago[deleted]
- dlcarrier 8d agoThey don't in this case, because there's plenty of other airlines offering competing service, but when disruptions do prevent air travel, for example with the eruption of Eyjafjallajökull, travelers cruising to their destination will burn far more fuel. Granted, the difference in emissions of either form of traveling are absolutely nothing compared to the emissions of Eyjafjallajökull itself.
- stockresearcher 8d agoThe speed of the ship makes a huge difference in fuel consumption. Cruise ships/ocean liners usually go as fast as practicable, which leads to terrible fuel efficiency. Reducing speed from 20 knots to 15 knots may cut fuel consumption in half or more. One thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of comparisons you’ll see will have, for example, a 5-day journey by cruise ship compared with an airline flight covering the same distance. Usually measured not in fuel consumed but carbon emissions. Ok, but shouldn’t the more accurate comparison be a 5-day cruise compared to an airplane trip plus 5 days in a hotel?
- matthew_morgan 8d ago[flagged]
- small_model 8d agoWonder if any of this code was outsourced to India 'cut costs'
- dv_dt 8d agoFollowing neoliberal economic strategy has optimized for profit maxing over basic quality of life, let alone competency of building and operating complex systems. While the US is #1 in the trend, the UK is following pretty closely
- maxrev17 8d agoUK is a cesspit now
- tialaramex 8d agoThat is specifically because the Tories privatised water. Historically, like most places, the vital-to-life water supply and corresponding sewage processing were owned by the public in England and Wales. People hated the idea of this being changed, but Tory doctrine says that absolutely everything should be owned by for-profit companies even though we know that can't work. So, first they forced the publicly owned companies to stop investing and then they privatised the water supply, wrote off all debt owed by the public institutions and handed the new private companies £1.5 billion because hey, if you believe in nonsense, why not? The result was universally dismal, these private companies "leak" sewage into previously clean waterways, avoid taxes, divert as much money as possible to their off-shore owners, and of course they insist they constantly need higher and higher charges from their captive customer audience, then "oops" the money is used to pay off wealthy investors and none of the urgently needed work gets done.
- librasteve 8d agoI hate how the UK sewage system has failed. I agree that a good share of the blame lies with the for profit asset stripping owners. But just blaming 1980s Thatcher privatisation lets the government off the hook. The regulators (Ofwat and the Environment Agency) have watched this happen from the sidelines and failed to apply the law. Every “non exceptional” spill is a criminal offence with potential jail term, including actions of corporate conspiracy. The are 10,000s river and sea spills per year. Where is the punitive action? Why are the perps walking free? This is the soft corruption of the lobby and revolving door appointments (head of a water company one year, boss of the EA the next). Sure the only way to fix it now is (uncompensated) nationalisation, but the regulators have failed to anpply the regulations and are as much to blame.
- talhaanwar 8d agohappen after every few years
- surgical_fire 8d agoThis affected flights going to the UK as well. Source: Me, stuck in an airport, having witnessed numerous flights destined to London canceled throughout the day.
- PowPow619 8d agoThis brings up the ol' ATC government ran vs privatization debate
- edoceo 8d agoThen the nonsense is quickly put back in its place.
- deleted 8d ago[deleted]
- Hard_Space 8d agoJust had to cancel my 10-year passport renewal appointment for tomorrow morning, since it's in London and I'm in the EU. Man, this was a *miserable* way to spend a day. The flight kept getting bumped, heading for certain cancellation (it came, about midnight, long after I had returned from the airport); GPT was incredibly helpful on how to redeem (most of) the shit-ton of money I had paid for a 4-hour passport renewal appointment, and what my rights and obligations were in this situation. In particular it pointed me to authority docs declaring that if a flight is 5+ hours late, you can refuse to fly, reclaim the money and exit the airport. So when the next update said that the flight had been bumped 9 hours, I had all I needed to secure that and went home. Two hours later, the app announced the flight was cancelled. Sometimes (really a lot) I want to kick GPT's/Claude's/Gemini's collective rear ends. And then there are times like these, when, with me in a funk, AI cuts straight through to the essential knowledge I need and lowers the temperature.
- AnimalMuppet 8d ago> In particular it pointed me to authority docs declaring that if a flight is 5+ hours late, you can refuse to fly, reclaim the money and exit the airport. What jurisdiction? EU? (I would love for that to be true in the US, but I bet it isn't...)
- ericmay 8d agoI just did a Google search[1] and here's what I found: - US airlines do not pay cash for delays - You’re entitled to a full refund for a significant delay if you choose not to travel - Full refunds are paid within 7 business days for cards (20 calendar days for other payment methods) - Paid extras (baggage, upgrades) are refundable if you didn’t receive them - Airline policy dictates reimbursement for meals, hotels, and other expenses after a delay "A refund for significant delays or changes to your flight: You are entitled to an automatic full cash refund (including taxes and fees) if your flight is "significantly changed" for any reason, and you turn down a rebooking offered by the airline. Airlines might push you to accept vouchers and travel credits, but you are entitled to a cash refund. If you do not want a voucher, just tell the airline you prefer to be refunded in cash." - Delays your departure or arrival by 3 hours for domestic flights and 6 hours for international ones, - Changes to your departure or arrival airports, - Increases the number of connections - Downgrades your class of service - Changes your flight to different airports or aircraft that are less accessible for persons with disabilities." [1] https://airadvisor.com/en-us/flight-delay-compensation https://airadvisor.com/en-us/flight-delay-compensation
- yehosef 8d ago"I told it not to deploy until it was fixed."
- gausswho 8d agoUh oh. For those of us with a connection through Heathrow morning of the 10th (in about 36 hours) what would you recommend?
- lores 8d agoThere's really very little you can do bar booking an alternative flight at great expense. If you're lucky and you know the delay in advance, at least you may have a chance to take the Elizabeth Line into town and go for a stroll. I'd count a fat hour to go from the terminal to, say, Paddington. It's a pretty area and there are excellent Persian restaurants around.
- tom1337 8d agoCurrently stuck at an airport in london. It's insane how little information the staff here has. Also mindboggling that in aviation, where everything has a backup or two there seems to be a single company with a single software that can take down an entire airspace which most like will create worldwide ripple for the next days.
- ifwinterco 8d agoIt’s an absolute clown show that it was down for 4 hours, but would you want to be flying in some of the busiest airspace in the world on a “backup” ATC system that isn’t normally used? Personally I would not
- tom1337 8d agoI mean one could do A/B weeks. Have two separate systems that do the same job managed by two different teams etc. and switch between the primary system every week. This way you can ensure both systems are stable.
- Hodgewocket 7d agoDon't browse HN after watching Slow horses...