7 ms·

> "What about all the people who need to drive into the city for work?" How are they going to do if there's no public transportation available for their commut

> "What about all the people who need to drive into the city for work?" How are they going to do if there's no public transportation available for their commute? edit: and how about plumbers (and the like) who need a vehicle to carry what they need to work?

estearum 16d ago
Given the increased road availability, we should invent trains that drive on roads.
- baud147258 14d ago
  I like trams, they're cool. I wonder if, once automated driving is advanced enough, we'll go back to cars and trams sharing the road (here in France all the trams I've seen have their tracks separated from the road and for good reasons).
- strictnein 16d ago
  Snark isn't actually a productive way to discuss a topic. A productive way would be to say that congestion pricing should be used to expand bus service.
  - estearum 16d ago
    Well I don't care how the money flows and neither should anyone else. It's a matter of allocating costs as closely to the origin of those costs as possible. If you do that, it will turn out that buses (etc) are far superior methods of moving people around, but you really don't need to move money directly from one to the other.
    - strictnein 16d ago
      > Well I don't care how the money flows and neither should anyone else Why shouldn't people care how the money flows and why are you the decider of what people should care about? If the money from congestion pricing was for a new stadium for the Yankees, or to build a new heliport for billionaires' row, or it just went into the pocket of the mayor I think that would be concerning for everyone involved.
      - estearum 16d ago
        Even if we took the money and lit it on fire each year, congestion pricing would still be a very, very good policy.
  - tomrod 16d ago
    Arguably, tone policing is even worse. I guffawed at grandparent comment!
    - strictnein 16d ago
      > Don't be snarky. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - tomrod 15d ago
        I stand by my guffaw and by my clear call that tone policing is worse.
  - harvey9 16d ago
    I thought it was an allusion to trams.
wat10000 16d ago
Is there any city implementing congestion pricing that doesn't have public transportation?
notatoad 16d ago
>How are they going to do if there's no public transportation available for their commute? is there any city anywhere that has implemented congestion pricing without having public transit available?
- bartread 16d ago
  Cambridge in the UK tried it. They promised to improve the bus service only after introducing the charge. It didn’t go over well. And even for a small city like Cambridge it is a huge lift to go from an already inadequate public transport infrastructure and set of services to infrastructure and services suitable for a city where cars have been largely eliminated. The irony of course is that bus services, specifically the guided busway, will be cut again soon due to ongoing lack of use. But the lack of use has been caused by long-running and poorly managed maintenance on the busway disrupting services to the point of unusability, rather than because of any real lack of demand. Some people didn’t trust that promises would be delivered on public transport when it came to the congestion charge. Obviously cuts like this add fuel to that fire. On a more positive note we have, over the past 10 years or so, gained two new railway stations, and that’s good. But we haven’t gained new rail lines and rail routes so they haven’t done anything really to improve the transport and congestion situations around the city. It’s easier and more convenient to get to London though, depending on where you are.
  - dfxm12 16d ago
    A web search surfacing contemporary newspaper articles suggests this congestion charge was proposed, but never actually implemented.
    - bartread 16d ago
      That's correct. I said they tried it, as in tried to introduce it. It was never actually introduced. It is quite likely to be tried again in future.
dbdr 16d ago
> and how about plumbers (and the like) who need a vehicle to carry what they need to work? This is literally addressed by the comment you are replying to: "What about the delivery people who need to bring this into the city?" They should be able to get in and out much faster, and their cargo makes it easy to amortize the cost!
righthand 16d ago
Always the plumber who can afford every other toll but not the very low priced congestion pricing. No other occupation ever gets mentioned so we must think of the non-existent hundreds of thousands of plumbers who can’t afford it.
- baud147258 14d ago
  My point is that the parent to whom I was responding didn't address the cases where one need a motor vehicle for their work. If it had been addressed as 'those cases will have to pay for the charge and adapt their prices', I wouldn't have mentioned it. Of course, as pointed in another (more useful) response to my comment, for those cases it might become cheaper since they might spend less time stuck in traffic.
  - righthand 14d ago
    My counter point is very few people have those requirements beyond plumbers. That’s why everyone always uses the plumbers as an example. And as you stated someone else's point is that since there are very few plumbers they would benefit. So my point is that those people aren’t a large enough group to matter in the decision of implementing congestion pricing because their negatives from it are nonexistent or over-exaggerated.
    - baud147258 14d ago
      > very few people have those requirements beyond plumbers. I'd say everyone who's working in the various home improvements/renovations, so carpenters, tillers, HVAC/boilers installers and maintainers, roofers, painters, kitchen designers, those who install plancher or carpets...
      - baud147258 13d ago
        and taking into account a minority that will have no choice but to interact with the new regulation (unlike service or white collar worker for whom it would be easier to take public transportation) seems like a good idea, no?
quickthrowman 16d ago
> edit: and how about plumbers (and the like) who need a vehicle to carry what they need to work? You charge the customer for the congestion charge and use it to pay the fee, just like anything else. I bid construction work and would include congestion fees into my bid or T&M rates if needed. How do you think construction vehicles pay for parking? They charge the customer for it and use the money to pay for parking.
- bryanlarsen 16d ago
  Presumably it would lower your bid by subtracting 20 minutes less of travel per trip and adding the congestion charge per day.
  - quickthrowman 16d ago
    Definitely, 20 minutes of an electrician in a truck costs me about $45 ($135/hr cost). Probably closer to $170-180/hr in NYC which would be close to $60 if it saved 20 minutes.
nkrisc 16d ago
What about them? It’s good there will be less traffic so they can get to their jobs on time.
triceratops 16d ago
> how about plumbers (and the like) who need a vehicle to carry what they need to work? They pay the fee and pass on the cost to their customers. And now they can find parking near where they work so they'll save some time.
deleted 16d ago
[deleted]

estearum 16d ago

Given the increased road availability, we should invent trains that drive on roads.

baud147258 14d ago
I like trams, they're cool. I wonder if, once automated driving is advanced enough, we'll go back to cars and trams sharing the road (here in France all the trams I've seen have their tracks separated from the road and for good reasons).
strictnein 16d ago
Snark isn't actually a productive way to discuss a topic. A productive way would be to say that congestion pricing should be used to expand bus service.
- estearum 16d ago
  Well I don't care how the money flows and neither should anyone else. It's a matter of allocating costs as closely to the origin of those costs as possible. If you do that, it will turn out that buses (etc) are far superior methods of moving people around, but you really don't need to move money directly from one to the other.
  - strictnein 16d ago
    > Well I don't care how the money flows and neither should anyone else Why shouldn't people care how the money flows and why are you the decider of what people should care about? If the money from congestion pricing was for a new stadium for the Yankees, or to build a new heliport for billionaires' row, or it just went into the pocket of the mayor I think that would be concerning for everyone involved.
    - estearum 16d ago
      Even if we took the money and lit it on fire each year, congestion pricing would still be a very, very good policy.
- tomrod 16d ago
  Arguably, tone policing is even worse. I guffawed at grandparent comment!
  - strictnein 16d ago
    > Don't be snarky. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - tomrod 15d ago
      I stand by my guffaw and by my clear call that tone policing is worse.
- harvey9 16d ago
  I thought it was an allusion to trams.

wat10000 16d ago

Is there any city implementing congestion pricing that doesn't have public transportation?

notatoad 16d ago

>How are they going to do if there's no public transportation available for their commute? is there any city anywhere that has implemented congestion pricing without having public transit available?

bartread 16d ago
Cambridge in the UK tried it. They promised to improve the bus service only after introducing the charge. It didn’t go over well. And even for a small city like Cambridge it is a huge lift to go from an already inadequate public transport infrastructure and set of services to infrastructure and services suitable for a city where cars have been largely eliminated. The irony of course is that bus services, specifically the guided busway, will be cut again soon due to ongoing lack of use. But the lack of use has been caused by long-running and poorly managed maintenance on the busway disrupting services to the point of unusability, rather than because of any real lack of demand. Some people didn’t trust that promises would be delivered on public transport when it came to the congestion charge. Obviously cuts like this add fuel to that fire. On a more positive note we have, over the past 10 years or so, gained two new railway stations, and that’s good. But we haven’t gained new rail lines and rail routes so they haven’t done anything really to improve the transport and congestion situations around the city. It’s easier and more convenient to get to London though, depending on where you are.
- dfxm12 16d ago
  A web search surfacing contemporary newspaper articles suggests this congestion charge was proposed, but never actually implemented.
  - bartread 16d ago
    That's correct. I said they tried it, as in tried to introduce it. It was never actually introduced. It is quite likely to be tried again in future.

dbdr 16d ago

> and how about plumbers (and the like) who need a vehicle to carry what they need to work? This is literally addressed by the comment you are replying to: "What about the delivery people who need to bring this into the city?" They should be able to get in and out much faster, and their cargo makes it easy to amortize the cost!

righthand 16d ago

Always the plumber who can afford every other toll but not the very low priced congestion pricing. No other occupation ever gets mentioned so we must think of the non-existent hundreds of thousands of plumbers who can’t afford it.

baud147258 14d ago
My point is that the parent to whom I was responding didn't address the cases where one need a motor vehicle for their work. If it had been addressed as 'those cases will have to pay for the charge and adapt their prices', I wouldn't have mentioned it. Of course, as pointed in another (more useful) response to my comment, for those cases it might become cheaper since they might spend less time stuck in traffic.
- righthand 14d ago
  My counter point is very few people have those requirements beyond plumbers. That’s why everyone always uses the plumbers as an example. And as you stated someone else's point is that since there are very few plumbers they would benefit. So my point is that those people aren’t a large enough group to matter in the decision of implementing congestion pricing because their negatives from it are nonexistent or over-exaggerated.
  - baud147258 14d ago
    > very few people have those requirements beyond plumbers. I'd say everyone who's working in the various home improvements/renovations, so carpenters, tillers, HVAC/boilers installers and maintainers, roofers, painters, kitchen designers, those who install plancher or carpets...
    - baud147258 13d ago
      and taking into account a minority that will have no choice but to interact with the new regulation (unlike service or white collar worker for whom it would be easier to take public transportation) seems like a good idea, no?

quickthrowman 16d ago

> edit: and how about plumbers (and the like) who need a vehicle to carry what they need to work? You charge the customer for the congestion charge and use it to pay the fee, just like anything else. I bid construction work and would include congestion fees into my bid or T&M rates if needed. How do you think construction vehicles pay for parking? They charge the customer for it and use the money to pay for parking.

bryanlarsen 16d ago
Presumably it would lower your bid by subtracting 20 minutes less of travel per trip and adding the congestion charge per day.
- quickthrowman 16d ago
  Definitely, 20 minutes of an electrician in a truck costs me about $45 ($135/hr cost). Probably closer to $170-180/hr in NYC which would be close to $60 if it saved 20 minutes.

nkrisc 16d ago

What about them? It’s good there will be less traffic so they can get to their jobs on time.

triceratops 16d ago

> how about plumbers (and the like) who need a vehicle to carry what they need to work? They pay the fee and pass on the cost to their customers. And now they can find parking near where they work so they'll save some time.

deleted 16d ago

[deleted]