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I wish nothing but success to Tarn and Zach, it’s great that releasing on Steam and adding a friendlier UI helped the game reach new audiences. It’s the proverb

I wish nothing but success to Tarn and Zach, it’s great that releasing on Steam and adding a friendlier UI helped the game reach new audiences. It’s the proverbial time black hole.

frollogaston 20d ago
Weirdly the ASCII art was what drew me in the most. Once accustomed to it, feels like The Matrix where they're reading the world.
- DarmokTanagra 16d ago
  as someone who grew up playing ascii games I was pretty excited about the graphical update. there is a novelty to ascii, but its a barrier to entry and major eye strain.
- sooheon 16d ago
  Same, the ASCII interface is an eternal classic to me, the updated graphics try harder and achieve less (just my opinion).
- gambiting 16d ago
  I have the same feeling playing Caves of Qud.
  - nikitau 15d ago
    Qud is a gem of a game, same publisher too! I get what you are saying, and it's use of ASCII plus ASCII-like graphics makes the experience a lot friendlier imo.
- nonethewiser 15d ago
  Love DF, havent played the steam version. The menus and lack of native ui controls for some things (dfhack) were by far the biggest problem, not the ascii. I get that the ascii is noisy and a matter of taste - not disputing that - but there were much bigger UX problems.
  - oortoo 15d ago
    Steam version is much worse than the fan UI options that were already available, sadly. Its also why I explain why DF really failed to take off after the Steam release. It's nowhere near the best, or even best looking, way to play the game.
    - frollogaston 13d ago
      I'm just not gonna deal with Steam so yeah
    - OkayPhysicist 15d ago
      I pretty strongly disagree. I can see some preferring some fan art style over the official one, even if I don't. But the official gui having support for rendering all the various critters, and factoring in clothing, multi-level, etc, really made the Steam version's graphics vastly better than anything else that was available at the time.
    - db48x 15d ago
      This just isn’t true. Plus, all the DFHack stuff that added UI to the game has been ported over and now integrates with the new UI perfectly well.
UltraSane 19d ago
In a documentary about them putting Dwarf Fortress on Steam Tarn talked about how he had to split the $7 million first payment from Steam with his brother and it turned out the easiest way was to just use the bank app.
- zhynn 16d ago
  You are thinking of the NoClip documentary! It is fantastic and well worth your time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwLSgaYPKA0&list=PL-THgg8QnvU5xvhtFe7orgcnfIqFq_qVk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwLSgaYPKA0&list=PL-THgg8Qnv...
  - metalliqaz 16d ago
    NoClip does a great job. I also recommend their Prey/Arcane documentary.
    - polytely 16d ago
      Yeah I love all their Arkane stuff, and the two Half Life docs they did under their whitelabel company Secret Tape company for Valve. And of course the big Disco Elysium series. It is actually their 10th anniversary in September, so if you like their work I would highly recommend their patreon to make sure they can do another 10 years. Their discord is actually one of my favourite places on the internet to talk about games because everyone in there has such great taste and is knowledgeable about the actual production process of games. They also have a second channel/patreon now called noclip_2 which is focused on underground/indie games which has been a constant source of joy for me, all the best games I've played in the past year I've discovered via their videos or their discord. Just great vibes all around. Edit: almost forgot, they are also running a project to digitize old videogame tapes so if you want to see old interviews with carmack or footage from E3 in really nice quality they have a YouTube channel for that too https://youtube.com/@nocliparchive https://youtube.com/@nocliparchive
- polytely 16d ago
  The noclip documentary series for any other readers who might be interested 1. The Origins of Dwarf Fortress: https://youtu.be/MxV24so-dw8 https://youtu.be/MxV24so-dw8 2. How Dwarf Fortress Evolved over 16 Years of Development: https://youtu.be/PiNeDarPzeI https://youtu.be/PiNeDarPzeI 3. How Dwarf Fortress Coming to Steam Changed Everything: https://youtu.be/TX65XCk2-6U https://youtu.be/TX65XCk2-6U anecdote about the money starts @ 18:40 4. Life After the Success of Dwarf Fortress: https://youtu.be/I5zgBXp4e8A https://youtu.be/I5zgBXp4e8A
Our_Benefactors 16d ago
“Friendlier” and still one of the worst UIs available. It’s nearly impenetrable and the game has no tutorial to speak of, no on-ramps for new players, and is probably the most overrated game I’ve ever had the displeasure of playing. I’m convinced from articles about dwarf fortress that it’s a game that few actually play and enjoy, but like talking about as if it’s fun. The promise of dwarf fortress is far more interesting than the actual gameplay. EDIT: To people who are rebutting this by saying “it’s just not for you” - that’s entirely my point. Few people enjoy it. I am the majority opinion here.
- Catloafdev 16d ago
  Yep, the game is difficult to get into, it's not for everyone. The game is great, though. You are in the "I have no idea what's going on" phase.
  - Our_Benefactors 16d ago
    It’s the games job to create an on ramp to understanding. It’s not mine to spend 200 hours grasping every concept before I can play “the real game”, that’s just shitty game design.
    - Dylan16807 15d ago
      If you have a steady food supply and you can hold off a military attack you're playing "the real game". A handful of hours can get you there, and you'll be learning plenty fast.
    - Catloafdev 16d ago
      You're totally allowed to have that opinion. Time is valuable. It does have a tutorial nowadays, but it's still not easy. Not everyone _wants_ to learn Dwarf Fortress, and that's fine - it's not for everyone. But I'm just providing context that, for those of us that have learned, it is a great game.
    - all2 16d ago
      This depends largely on your expectation for what a 'game' should be. Puzzle boxes, for example, have zero on ramp, and yet many many people enjoy them, enjoy the struggle of discovery. Arguably the edges of mathematics and science are inhabited by similar people, living where the rules are ill defined, where there is much to be discovered rather than pre-digested and spoon fed. I have little patience for games that don't spoon feed, so I get where you're coming from. I watched my brother play DF and decided I didn't want to spend my time like that, trying to parse ascii, trying to figure out how all the things interacted. I also don't like puzzle boxes that much. To each their own.
postalrat 16d ago
Makes me think how would an AI interface to a game like dwarf fortress play out. Where you tell it what you want like some sort of dwarven ruler.
- Planktonne 16d ago
  The point of DF, to a large extent, is precise control and detail. It's the opposite of the approach taken by AI games that want to generalise based on simple prompts.
  - pavel_lishin 16d ago
    > The point of DF, to a large extent, is precise control and detail. I don't know, it's basically Minecraft with Lemmings. You control a lot, but at the end, the AI comparison might be somewhat apt - you tell the dwarves what to do, and they mostly do it. When they're not struck by a strange mood, or when they're not too depressed to work, or when they're not being eaten by a Forgotten Beast (beware its deadly dust!)
    - Planktonne 16d ago
      I take your point, but those are also all things you can control and manage, albeit indirectly.
  - DarmokTanagra 16d ago
    to each their own, but that is the least interesting part of DF for me. I like the narrative element and enjoy delegating random shit and seeing what happens.
  - ux266478 16d ago
    I would pose that's a matter of holding it wrong. Like, integrating generative AI as a prompt to an API endpoint exposed to the user is one of the worst, most naive and bland ways to use it as a game subsystem that I can think of. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of problems with trying to use generative AI as a subsystem for a game, problems which exist at a conceptual level. But all the games I've seen that integrate AI as a subsystem don't even come remotely close to hitting that ceiling. I think it's ultimately up to the fact that an interesting usage of generative AI requires a level of technical competency and theory that's well beyond that of the layman. The people making games that utilize AI generally seem to lack the chops to make a good game or do interesting things with AI. The people with the chops and manhours to make a good game with AI: - Don't want the backlash of having a generative model in their game, because no matter the context that's a lot of very bad press for something that's very difficult and time consuming to implement. - See the immediate problems and difficulty that arise from a decently integrated concept and execution, and even without the bad press, understand that the juice isn't worth the squeeze. That it's always going to be an immensely stupid gimmick in the end, one that's trying way too hard. That won't stop us from having 10,000 pieces of shovelware getting churned out that have the worst, most uninspired integrations imaginable mind you. We clearly already have those. For those that could do something better with the tech, there's too many good reasons to not touch it.
colechristensen 16d ago
I had the muscle memory for the full keyboard control on pre-steam releases and the loss of some complete keyboard controls and things just changing made it so I never really got into the Steam release, which was pretty disappointing. I get it though.
- OkayPhysicist 16d ago
  I'm in a similar, but less extreme boat. The new interface has its perks, especially in terms of discoverability, but for tasks that need to be done repeatedly (request 10 beds be made before you have a manager, for example), you really miss the ability to rock some chords.
- Agentlien 16d ago
  It took me some time to remap the muscle memory but it felt so worth it. The Steam version is not just a new AI, it introduced a lot of gameplay changes which really improved the underlying systems a lot.
  - fc417fc802 16d ago
    Does the non-steam version not receive the same gameplay updates? I had been under the impression that the only difference was the UI.
    - colechristensen 16d ago
      The non-steam version also had its controls significantly changed
    - db48x 16d ago
      The version available for free on their website is the same exact program as the one you purchase on Steam. It simply includes a different set of graphics for the UI. These graphics are designed to look as if they are made up of text characters, but in reality they are still just sprites. The sprites that come with the version you buy from Steam are designed to look like a normal but stylized gui.
oortoo 15d ago
Dwarf Fortress's Steam UI is by far, my least favorite thing about the game. Does anyone else agree? After playing with the Lazy Newb's Pack and other similar tools for years, I found the Steam version to be a maaaaasive downgrade. The mouse was tied to the framerate, everything felt sluggish and hard to control. It really irks me because I had been telling everyone for years to play this game, and finally it gets an "official" release and I found it to be... the worst version of the game I'd tried yet. Maybe its improved since I last tried it. But it would be hard to outdo what the fans had done with the UI, IMO. Even features like seasonal color schemes felt almost vital to me. Not to mention customizing your own preferred sprites... I almost wish Tarn and Zach had kept to building core gameplay and let the fans handle the UI, with some sort of official team-up to bring it to Steam. I'd recommended Lazy Newb Pack to almost anyone but I don't think I'd recommend the Steam version, at least the version I tried.
- tripleee 15d ago
  I don't mind the UI so much but my biggest issue is they got rid of the keyboard controls. I really wish they'd put some actual effort into the graphics of the game. Even some minimal animations would be nice.
  - drudolph914 15d ago
    I actually think this type of suggestion/thinking is not good for the game. the mystique of dwarf fortress is that it's a game that plays in your imagination, not on the screen. the point of the ascii visuals is to give a player enough context to understand the state of the world, but it's intentionally obtuse so fun arrises from your brain having to color in all the details. any suggestion that tries to add more polish to the graphics brings you farther away from where the fun lives
    - tripleee 15d ago
      Going to have to agree to disagree here. Graphical polish would make it much more enjoyable for me, and I spent enough time with the ascii version back in the day to get used to it. Good thing is they can and do have both styles.

I wish nothing but success to Tarn and Zach, it’s great that releasing on Steam and adding a friendlier UI helped the game reach new audiences. It’s the proverbial time black hole.

frollogaston 20d ago

Weirdly the ASCII art was what drew me in the most. Once accustomed to it, feels like The Matrix where they're reading the world.

DarmokTanagra 16d ago
as someone who grew up playing ascii games I was pretty excited about the graphical update. there is a novelty to ascii, but its a barrier to entry and major eye strain.
sooheon 16d ago
Same, the ASCII interface is an eternal classic to me, the updated graphics try harder and achieve less (just my opinion).
gambiting 16d ago
I have the same feeling playing Caves of Qud.
- nikitau 15d ago
  Qud is a gem of a game, same publisher too! I get what you are saying, and it's use of ASCII plus ASCII-like graphics makes the experience a lot friendlier imo.
nonethewiser 15d ago
Love DF, havent played the steam version. The menus and lack of native ui controls for some things (dfhack) were by far the biggest problem, not the ascii. I get that the ascii is noisy and a matter of taste - not disputing that - but there were much bigger UX problems.
- oortoo 15d ago
  Steam version is much worse than the fan UI options that were already available, sadly. Its also why I explain why DF really failed to take off after the Steam release. It's nowhere near the best, or even best looking, way to play the game.
  - frollogaston 13d ago
    I'm just not gonna deal with Steam so yeah
  - OkayPhysicist 15d ago
    I pretty strongly disagree. I can see some preferring some fan art style over the official one, even if I don't. But the official gui having support for rendering all the various critters, and factoring in clothing, multi-level, etc, really made the Steam version's graphics vastly better than anything else that was available at the time.
  - db48x 15d ago
    This just isn’t true. Plus, all the DFHack stuff that added UI to the game has been ported over and now integrates with the new UI perfectly well.

UltraSane 19d ago

In a documentary about them putting Dwarf Fortress on Steam Tarn talked about how he had to split the $7 million first payment from Steam with his brother and it turned out the easiest way was to just use the bank app.

zhynn 16d ago
You are thinking of the NoClip documentary! It is fantastic and well worth your time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwLSgaYPKA0&list=PL-THgg8QnvU5xvhtFe7orgcnfIqFq_qVk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwLSgaYPKA0&list=PL-THgg8Qnv...
- metalliqaz 16d ago
  NoClip does a great job. I also recommend their Prey/Arcane documentary.
  - polytely 16d ago
    Yeah I love all their Arkane stuff, and the two Half Life docs they did under their whitelabel company Secret Tape company for Valve. And of course the big Disco Elysium series. It is actually their 10th anniversary in September, so if you like their work I would highly recommend their patreon to make sure they can do another 10 years. Their discord is actually one of my favourite places on the internet to talk about games because everyone in there has such great taste and is knowledgeable about the actual production process of games. They also have a second channel/patreon now called noclip_2 which is focused on underground/indie games which has been a constant source of joy for me, all the best games I've played in the past year I've discovered via their videos or their discord. Just great vibes all around. Edit: almost forgot, they are also running a project to digitize old videogame tapes so if you want to see old interviews with carmack or footage from E3 in really nice quality they have a YouTube channel for that too https://youtube.com/@nocliparchive https://youtube.com/@nocliparchive
polytely 16d ago
The noclip documentary series for any other readers who might be interested 1. The Origins of Dwarf Fortress: https://youtu.be/MxV24so-dw8 https://youtu.be/MxV24so-dw8 2. How Dwarf Fortress Evolved over 16 Years of Development: https://youtu.be/PiNeDarPzeI https://youtu.be/PiNeDarPzeI 3. How Dwarf Fortress Coming to Steam Changed Everything: https://youtu.be/TX65XCk2-6U https://youtu.be/TX65XCk2-6U anecdote about the money starts @ 18:40 4. Life After the Success of Dwarf Fortress: https://youtu.be/I5zgBXp4e8A https://youtu.be/I5zgBXp4e8A

Our_Benefactors 16d ago

“Friendlier” and still one of the worst UIs available. It’s nearly impenetrable and the game has no tutorial to speak of, no on-ramps for new players, and is probably the most overrated game I’ve ever had the displeasure of playing. I’m convinced from articles about dwarf fortress that it’s a game that few actually play and enjoy, but like talking about as if it’s fun. The promise of dwarf fortress is far more interesting than the actual gameplay. EDIT: To people who are rebutting this by saying “it’s just not for you” - that’s entirely my point. Few people enjoy it. I am the majority opinion here.

Catloafdev 16d ago
Yep, the game is difficult to get into, it's not for everyone. The game is great, though. You are in the "I have no idea what's going on" phase.
- Our_Benefactors 16d ago
  It’s the games job to create an on ramp to understanding. It’s not mine to spend 200 hours grasping every concept before I can play “the real game”, that’s just shitty game design.
  - Dylan16807 15d ago
    If you have a steady food supply and you can hold off a military attack you're playing "the real game". A handful of hours can get you there, and you'll be learning plenty fast.
  - Catloafdev 16d ago
    You're totally allowed to have that opinion. Time is valuable. It does have a tutorial nowadays, but it's still not easy. Not everyone _wants_ to learn Dwarf Fortress, and that's fine - it's not for everyone. But I'm just providing context that, for those of us that have learned, it is a great game.
  - all2 16d ago
    This depends largely on your expectation for what a 'game' should be. Puzzle boxes, for example, have zero on ramp, and yet many many people enjoy them, enjoy the struggle of discovery. Arguably the edges of mathematics and science are inhabited by similar people, living where the rules are ill defined, where there is much to be discovered rather than pre-digested and spoon fed. I have little patience for games that don't spoon feed, so I get where you're coming from. I watched my brother play DF and decided I didn't want to spend my time like that, trying to parse ascii, trying to figure out how all the things interacted. I also don't like puzzle boxes that much. To each their own.

postalrat 16d ago

Makes me think how would an AI interface to a game like dwarf fortress play out. Where you tell it what you want like some sort of dwarven ruler.

Planktonne 16d ago
The point of DF, to a large extent, is precise control and detail. It's the opposite of the approach taken by AI games that want to generalise based on simple prompts.
- pavel_lishin 16d ago
  > The point of DF, to a large extent, is precise control and detail. I don't know, it's basically Minecraft with Lemmings. You control a lot, but at the end, the AI comparison might be somewhat apt - you tell the dwarves what to do, and they mostly do it. When they're not struck by a strange mood, or when they're not too depressed to work, or when they're not being eaten by a Forgotten Beast (beware its deadly dust!)
  - Planktonne 16d ago
    I take your point, but those are also all things you can control and manage, albeit indirectly.
- DarmokTanagra 16d ago
  to each their own, but that is the least interesting part of DF for me. I like the narrative element and enjoy delegating random shit and seeing what happens.
- ux266478 16d ago
  I would pose that's a matter of holding it wrong. Like, integrating generative AI as a prompt to an API endpoint exposed to the user is one of the worst, most naive and bland ways to use it as a game subsystem that I can think of. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of problems with trying to use generative AI as a subsystem for a game, problems which exist at a conceptual level. But all the games I've seen that integrate AI as a subsystem don't even come remotely close to hitting that ceiling. I think it's ultimately up to the fact that an interesting usage of generative AI requires a level of technical competency and theory that's well beyond that of the layman. The people making games that utilize AI generally seem to lack the chops to make a good game or do interesting things with AI. The people with the chops and manhours to make a good game with AI: - Don't want the backlash of having a generative model in their game, because no matter the context that's a lot of very bad press for something that's very difficult and time consuming to implement. - See the immediate problems and difficulty that arise from a decently integrated concept and execution, and even without the bad press, understand that the juice isn't worth the squeeze. That it's always going to be an immensely stupid gimmick in the end, one that's trying way too hard. That won't stop us from having 10,000 pieces of shovelware getting churned out that have the worst, most uninspired integrations imaginable mind you. We clearly already have those. For those that could do something better with the tech, there's too many good reasons to not touch it.

colechristensen 16d ago

I had the muscle memory for the full keyboard control on pre-steam releases and the loss of some complete keyboard controls and things just changing made it so I never really got into the Steam release, which was pretty disappointing. I get it though.

OkayPhysicist 16d ago
I'm in a similar, but less extreme boat. The new interface has its perks, especially in terms of discoverability, but for tasks that need to be done repeatedly (request 10 beds be made before you have a manager, for example), you really miss the ability to rock some chords.
Agentlien 16d ago
It took me some time to remap the muscle memory but it felt so worth it. The Steam version is not just a new AI, it introduced a lot of gameplay changes which really improved the underlying systems a lot.
- fc417fc802 16d ago
  Does the non-steam version not receive the same gameplay updates? I had been under the impression that the only difference was the UI.
  - colechristensen 16d ago
    The non-steam version also had its controls significantly changed
  - db48x 16d ago
    The version available for free on their website is the same exact program as the one you purchase on Steam. It simply includes a different set of graphics for the UI. These graphics are designed to look as if they are made up of text characters, but in reality they are still just sprites. The sprites that come with the version you buy from Steam are designed to look like a normal but stylized gui.

oortoo 15d ago

Dwarf Fortress's Steam UI is by far, my least favorite thing about the game. Does anyone else agree? After playing with the Lazy Newb's Pack and other similar tools for years, I found the Steam version to be a maaaaasive downgrade. The mouse was tied to the framerate, everything felt sluggish and hard to control. It really irks me because I had been telling everyone for years to play this game, and finally it gets an "official" release and I found it to be... the worst version of the game I'd tried yet. Maybe its improved since I last tried it. But it would be hard to outdo what the fans had done with the UI, IMO. Even features like seasonal color schemes felt almost vital to me. Not to mention customizing your own preferred sprites... I almost wish Tarn and Zach had kept to building core gameplay and let the fans handle the UI, with some sort of official team-up to bring it to Steam. I'd recommended Lazy Newb Pack to almost anyone but I don't think I'd recommend the Steam version, at least the version I tried.

tripleee 15d ago
I don't mind the UI so much but my biggest issue is they got rid of the keyboard controls. I really wish they'd put some actual effort into the graphics of the game. Even some minimal animations would be nice.
- drudolph914 15d ago
  I actually think this type of suggestion/thinking is not good for the game. the mystique of dwarf fortress is that it's a game that plays in your imagination, not on the screen. the point of the ascii visuals is to give a player enough context to understand the state of the world, but it's intentionally obtuse so fun arrises from your brain having to color in all the details. any suggestion that tries to add more polish to the graphics brings you farther away from where the fun lives
  - tripleee 15d ago
    Going to have to agree to disagree here. Graphical polish would make it much more enjoyable for me, and I spent enough time with the ascii version back in the day to get used to it. Good thing is they can and do have both styles.