9 ms·

Apostasy is treated very severely by many (most?) religions. The cults have just borrowed that concept.

by jcsager 25d ago

cogman10 25d ago
I'd disagree. Most religions don't love apostasy but they also don't actively tell their members to go out of their way to punish or avoid non-believers. The reason cults severely punish ex members is to protect the flock. They don't want their members to learn from ex members real criticisms of the cult. It's precisely so when books like mentioned in this thread come up, the cult can say "oh, that's just a bad ex member who's lying". The idea of "forbidden knowledge" is pretty unique to cults. You won't find, for example, a Methodist church that tells you not to read exmethodist books (do they even exist?). Heck, they probably wouldn't even get upset if you read something like "The god delusion".
- senderista 24d ago
  There is at least one very important exception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
  - decimalenough 24d ago
    This is hardly unique to Islam, many of the more hard-line Christian sects (Jehovahs, Christian Brethren, etc) as well as Haredi Jews also shun apostates. The main difference is that in countries with shariah, apostasy is not just a sin, it's a criminal offense.
    - ShinyLeftPad 24d ago
      There's very few Muslim countries without legal Shariah... Turkey, 4 stans, Albania/Bosnia, and that's about it. Many of them are only "Muslim" as far as majority religion, locals might not even agree with that classification There's a bunch of Muslim countries with Sharia not in criminal law but in marriage, maybe that's what you mean.
    - rdtsc 24d ago
      Based on the wiki about it > among Islamic jurists, the majority of them continue to regard apostasy as a crime which should be punishable by death How many mainstream Jewish or Christian groups advocate for that?
      - decimalenough 24d ago
        If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. Deuteronomy 13:6–11
        lukan 24d ago
        That was not the question, but what actual christian person of influence today believe that to be taken literal? I am one of those apostates and there is some social shaming that I can mostly ignore, but so far no one called for my murder or imprisonment.
      - skinfaxi 24d ago
        Which Islamic jurists? The citation talks about stuff in 1967.
        rdtsc 24d ago
        Do I know them by name? No I don't. It's a quote from wikipedia. Feel free to dispute it if you feel it's incorrect. I was commenting on the wiki link content GP posted.
        23d ago

Apostasy is treated very severely by many (most?) religions. The cults have just borrowed that concept.

by jcsager 25d ago

Apostasy is treated very severely by many (most?) religions. The cults have just borrowed that concept.

I'd disagree. Most religions don't love apostasy but they also don't actively tell their members to go out of their way to punish or avoid non-believers. The reason cults severely punish ex members is to protect the flock. They don't want their members to learn from ex members real criticisms of the cult. It's precisely so when books like mentioned in this thread come up, the cult can say "oh, that's just a bad ex member who's lying". The idea of "forbidden knowledge" is pretty unique to cults. You won't find, for example, a Methodist church that tells you not to read exmethodist books (do they even exist?). Heck, they probably wouldn't even get upset if you read something like "The god delusion".

senderista 24d ago
There is at least one very important exception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
- decimalenough 24d ago
  This is hardly unique to Islam, many of the more hard-line Christian sects (Jehovahs, Christian Brethren, etc) as well as Haredi Jews also shun apostates. The main difference is that in countries with shariah, apostasy is not just a sin, it's a criminal offense.
  - ShinyLeftPad 24d ago
    There's very few Muslim countries without legal Shariah... Turkey, 4 stans, Albania/Bosnia, and that's about it. Many of them are only "Muslim" as far as majority religion, locals might not even agree with that classification There's a bunch of Muslim countries with Sharia not in criminal law but in marriage, maybe that's what you mean.
  - rdtsc 24d ago
    Based on the wiki about it > among Islamic jurists, the majority of them continue to regard apostasy as a crime which should be punishable by death How many mainstream Jewish or Christian groups advocate for that?
    - decimalenough 24d ago
      If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. Deuteronomy 13:6–11
      - lukan 24d ago
        That was not the question, but what actual christian person of influence today believe that to be taken literal? I am one of those apostates and there is some social shaming that I can mostly ignore, but so far no one called for my murder or imprisonment.
    - skinfaxi 24d ago
      Which Islamic jurists? The citation talks about stuff in 1967.
      - rdtsc 24d ago
        Do I know them by name? No I don't. It's a quote from wikipedia. Feel free to dispute it if you feel it's incorrect. I was commenting on the wiki link content GP posted.
        23d ago