6 ms·

ATProto spaces: A new extension to ATProto that enables non-public data

178 points by grappler 29d ago

arikrahman 27d ago
Let's go, tangled.sh is about to have private repos
- dawnerd 27d ago
  You sure about that? From my reading nothing about this is private.
  - fereira 26d ago
    As someone else pointed out, the word "non-public" is used to distinguish from the existing data, where everything is public. I'm not the guy who wrote it, but if I had to guess why that language was chosen, it would be because there's a lot of emphasis on spaces being scalable up to millions of users (think paywalled Patreon content, or something similar), and private implies a much tighter restriction. Set up a space with just you and your collaborators, put all your tangled data for a repo in it, do a little extra work on the knot implementation to actively authorize SSH connections (as that wasn't a concern when everything was public) and now that's a private repo.
ChrisArchitect 29d ago
Spaces? As someone reading this from the periphery (and not really even as I have been in the ecosystem, building etc), my first thought was this was some kind of live audio conversation thing ala Twitter Spaces. But nope. I know I know, you want to do your own thing, define your own naming, but alot of people still view things as far as Bluesky's relation to Twitter, in the consumer lens. You'll get there as far as independent separation but it's not there yet (similarly, Bluesky & atproto's connection/independence). And this isn't even a consumer thing in this respect, but a dev/protocol thing.... couldn't have gone with something like Zones... Permissioned Zones?
- oofdere 29d ago
  "space" is just a common English term for this kinda thing, as you can see in any dictionary ever: Collins: "A particular kind of space is the area that is available for a particular activity or for putting a particular kind of thing in." Cambridge: "an empty area that is available to be used" why do you think Twitter called them spaces in the first place?
  - ChrisArchitect 29d ago
    Not saying the word doesn't make sense, questioning it's use from a branding/identity standpoint. It's already taken/associated with an aspect of another network that like it or not is still in proximity to whatever AT proto/Bluesky are developing. Just call it something else! ("hardest thing in computer science is naming things" etc etc)
    - deleted 27d ago
      [deleted]
  - embedding-shape 27d ago
    > "space" is just a common English term for this kinda thing Isn't that exactly the problem? It's like using "node" for something in your program's design, or "tree" or "type" whatever. Usually it's better to find a more specific name that communicates the intent even better, or at least less common name, as it'll inevitably will clash with something else, and by then you wish you'd name it differently than every other single thing out there. Unless it truly is only that thing which can be called "tree", don't suddenly call it "perennial" just because.
    - pibaker 27d ago
      It's funny you said "node" because the first thing it reminds me of is NodeJS. I'll admit I don't know why they called it node. But I have never seen anyone bothered by it either.
    - LowTechHN 27d ago
lolokbro 27d ago
[dead]
pocksuppet 27d ago
So is this now just, like, a server?
- tancop 27d ago
  No. Data is stored on your PDS and no one else can shut it down, there is no central server. The only difference from public atproto is when you ask someone else PDS for records in a space you need a token signed by the space authority to show that you have permission to read them.
  - pocksuppet 27d ago
    So your PDS is a central server? Who would I ask for my private space records but myself?
    - oddevan 27d ago
      Think less "private" and more "protected." Like Patreon subscriber perks, paywalled content, or just someone who only wants certain people to see what they post.
      - LowTechHN 27d ago
        “Protected” is the same thing at the technical level. Both would 401 or 403 to the unauthorized user. I think they are asking how it actually works not for product marketing
      - inigyou 27d ago
        Who would you ask besides the author's PDS though? Would every relay have a cached copy of all private data, but only give it out after checking auth? That's not a very safe design - what if my relay doesn't check?
        chokolad 26d ago
        spaces do not use relays. The sync protocol is pull from PDS. https://dholms.leaflet.pub/3mqtqvjidqs2p https://dholms.leaflet.pub/3mqtqvjidqs2p
jodosha 27d ago
> It’s important to remember that spaces give you access control not confidentiality. The data in a space is readable by any user or application with access to that space, it’s not encrypted.
- irickt 26d ago
  As the next sentence says "Spaces are a very flexible primitive, and the range of uses is deliberately broad." Access control by groups fits a wide range of applications. Encryption with multiple access is a specialized need that might be built on the primitive.
isodev 27d ago
It's kind of shocking that nowhere in the discussions we see references to the IDSA (https://internationaldataspaces.org/ https://internationaldataspaces.org/). Most of ATproto seems to be based on data space concepts with a strange level of "we don't like RDF" layer applied on top. I hope the growing mess of lexicons would eventually trigger them to self correct and look more into reusing (and encouraging) existing ontologies (schema.org or any number of others).
LowTechHN 27d ago
[flagged]
notnullorvoid 27d ago
It seems like at every turn the word private is avoided and replaced with "non-public". I understand that the system probably is sound, the data just isn't encrypted, which I wouldn't necessarily expect. Maybe it's completely clear for users familiar with AtProto, but for others it needs to be clearer on some things: - Where exactly is the data is stored - Who is the "space authority" and why should they be trusted - Strategies where you can manually encrypt/decrypt the data put in spaces And avoid sketchy sounding terms like "non-public".
- curious_cat_163 26d ago
  I am not developing with the ATproto, but keep an eye on the specs. There is a lot brewing in that ecosystem so I understand your skepticism. I think that avoiding the word “private” is absolutely the right move here, because they are not building for the individual privacy. That’s not what the spec is intending to unlock. Their goal is to enable the next set of apps, that need to enable sharing of content with a specific and controlled group of users. The data is stored in a PDS. You can use the one that Bluesky PBC or any other service provider provides, or you can self-host. Space Authority is a DID, per the link above. So, in ATProto land, that’s just an account. The authority DID controls the accesss to the the space for other DIDs. I can’t answer your question about encryption. Hard to answer it without a specific use case.
forest_brothers 26d ago
[dead]

178 points by grappler 29d ago

arikrahman 27d ago

Let's go, tangled.sh is about to have private repos

dawnerd 27d ago
You sure about that? From my reading nothing about this is private.
- fereira 26d ago
  As someone else pointed out, the word "non-public" is used to distinguish from the existing data, where everything is public. I'm not the guy who wrote it, but if I had to guess why that language was chosen, it would be because there's a lot of emphasis on spaces being scalable up to millions of users (think paywalled Patreon content, or something similar), and private implies a much tighter restriction. Set up a space with just you and your collaborators, put all your tangled data for a repo in it, do a little extra work on the knot implementation to actively authorize SSH connections (as that wasn't a concern when everything was public) and now that's a private repo.

ChrisArchitect 29d ago

Spaces? As someone reading this from the periphery (and not really even as I have been in the ecosystem, building etc), my first thought was this was some kind of live audio conversation thing ala Twitter Spaces. But nope. I know I know, you want to do your own thing, define your own naming, but alot of people still view things as far as Bluesky's relation to Twitter, in the consumer lens. You'll get there as far as independent separation but it's not there yet (similarly, Bluesky & atproto's connection/independence). And this isn't even a consumer thing in this respect, but a dev/protocol thing.... couldn't have gone with something like Zones... Permissioned Zones?

oofdere 29d ago
"space" is just a common English term for this kinda thing, as you can see in any dictionary ever: Collins: "A particular kind of space is the area that is available for a particular activity or for putting a particular kind of thing in." Cambridge: "an empty area that is available to be used" why do you think Twitter called them spaces in the first place?
- ChrisArchitect 29d ago
  Not saying the word doesn't make sense, questioning it's use from a branding/identity standpoint. It's already taken/associated with an aspect of another network that like it or not is still in proximity to whatever AT proto/Bluesky are developing. Just call it something else! ("hardest thing in computer science is naming things" etc etc)
  - deleted 27d ago
    [deleted]
- embedding-shape 27d ago
  > "space" is just a common English term for this kinda thing Isn't that exactly the problem? It's like using "node" for something in your program's design, or "tree" or "type" whatever. Usually it's better to find a more specific name that communicates the intent even better, or at least less common name, as it'll inevitably will clash with something else, and by then you wish you'd name it differently than every other single thing out there. Unless it truly is only that thing which can be called "tree", don't suddenly call it "perennial" just because.
  - pibaker 27d ago
    It's funny you said "node" because the first thing it reminds me of is NodeJS. I'll admit I don't know why they called it node. But I have never seen anyone bothered by it either.
  - LowTechHN 27d ago

lolokbro 27d ago

[dead]

pocksuppet 27d ago

So is this now just, like, a server?

tancop 27d ago
No. Data is stored on your PDS and no one else can shut it down, there is no central server. The only difference from public atproto is when you ask someone else PDS for records in a space you need a token signed by the space authority to show that you have permission to read them.
- pocksuppet 27d ago
  So your PDS is a central server? Who would I ask for my private space records but myself?
  - oddevan 27d ago
    Think less "private" and more "protected." Like Patreon subscriber perks, paywalled content, or just someone who only wants certain people to see what they post.
    - LowTechHN 27d ago
      “Protected” is the same thing at the technical level. Both would 401 or 403 to the unauthorized user. I think they are asking how it actually works not for product marketing
    - inigyou 27d ago
      Who would you ask besides the author's PDS though? Would every relay have a cached copy of all private data, but only give it out after checking auth? That's not a very safe design - what if my relay doesn't check?
      - chokolad 26d ago
        spaces do not use relays. The sync protocol is pull from PDS. https://dholms.leaflet.pub/3mqtqvjidqs2p https://dholms.leaflet.pub/3mqtqvjidqs2p

jodosha 27d ago

> It’s important to remember that spaces give you access control not confidentiality. The data in a space is readable by any user or application with access to that space, it’s not encrypted.

irickt 26d ago
As the next sentence says "Spaces are a very flexible primitive, and the range of uses is deliberately broad." Access control by groups fits a wide range of applications. Encryption with multiple access is a specialized need that might be built on the primitive.

isodev 27d ago

It's kind of shocking that nowhere in the discussions we see references to the IDSA (https://internationaldataspaces.org/ https://internationaldataspaces.org/). Most of ATproto seems to be based on data space concepts with a strange level of "we don't like RDF" layer applied on top. I hope the growing mess of lexicons would eventually trigger them to self correct and look more into reusing (and encouraging) existing ontologies (schema.org or any number of others).

LowTechHN 27d ago

[flagged]

notnullorvoid 27d ago

It seems like at every turn the word private is avoided and replaced with "non-public". I understand that the system probably is sound, the data just isn't encrypted, which I wouldn't necessarily expect. Maybe it's completely clear for users familiar with AtProto, but for others it needs to be clearer on some things: - Where exactly is the data is stored - Who is the "space authority" and why should they be trusted - Strategies where you can manually encrypt/decrypt the data put in spaces And avoid sketchy sounding terms like "non-public".

curious_cat_163 26d ago
I am not developing with the ATproto, but keep an eye on the specs. There is a lot brewing in that ecosystem so I understand your skepticism. I think that avoiding the word “private” is absolutely the right move here, because they are not building for the individual privacy. That’s not what the spec is intending to unlock. Their goal is to enable the next set of apps, that need to enable sharing of content with a specific and controlled group of users. The data is stored in a PDS. You can use the one that Bluesky PBC or any other service provider provides, or you can self-host. Space Authority is a DID, per the link above. So, in ATProto land, that’s just an account. The authority DID controls the accesss to the the space for other DIDs. I can’t answer your question about encryption. Hard to answer it without a specific use case.

forest_brothers 26d ago

[dead]