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The older I get the more I realize ambition and "being ambitious" is a completely misplaced way to orient your life. The chance of validation from others is no

The older I get the more I realize ambition and "being ambitious" is a completely misplaced way to orient your life. The chance of validation from others is not a good reason for making one choice or another and a life made of choices of that kind will eventually leave you spiritually bankrupt. Make decisions based on what you're passionate about, based on what will bring and keep meaningful relationships into your life, based on what will leave you with habits that take you outside, into the sun, moving your body and eating healthy, and, sure, that will afford you the ability to pay for those things. Focus on the process, not the outcome. Making decisions based on what will make you more "successful" will make you a slave to others approval. And those others will use you up and waste your life to achieve their own objectives. Also, if you pick the right partner, having kids does all the good things in life at once. It is the most efficient way to get yourself into the good life possible.

deleted 29d ago
[deleted]
amouat 29d ago
I don't disagree, except that you've taken ambitious to mean climbing the corporate ladder, which is a relatively narrow reading. It can also mean wanting a achieve a large dream or goal e.g. writing a book.
- code51 29d ago
  Or the dream of keeping a stable job.
  - deleted 29d ago
    [deleted]
  - tonyedgecombe 29d ago
    The trouble with that is it's always someone else's decision whether you keep your job.
- Aurornis 29d ago
  Or the dream of financial security and early retirement, which are both highly valuable in the context of having a family. I couldn’t care less about the external validation part of it or my job title.
- spicyusername 29d ago
  Focusing on your passion for writing is more likely to produce the book than focusing on your desire to be able to say you were someone who finished a book. And who is being able to say you were someone who finished a book for? You? Or is it for someone else?
- glitchc 29d ago
  I think the OP's logic applies. Every author is hoping their book is a best-seller and/or wins awards i.e. the approval of others.
  - sokoloff 29d ago
    I know a couple of O’Reilly authors. I don’t think any of them expected a best-seller or awards from their work, just “I get a high-four or barely-five figure payment for a competent treatment of a technical topic.” Maybe you could argue that’s a lightweight version of “approval of others”
    - theF00l 29d ago
      Surprised to hear that an O'Reilly book will net you less than a month of work for a SWE in the US and some parts of Europe. But I guess the reward is not the money but the expertise and signal.
      - geodel 28d ago
        That plus, online, in-person training opportunities.
      - FuriouslyAdrift 28d ago
        Here's an authors account of royalties received from the no. 2 best selling O'Reilly book at the time (around $500k over 6 years) https://martin.kleppmann.com/2020/09/29/is-book-writing-worth-it.html https://martin.kleppmann.com/2020/09/29/is-book-writing-wort...
  - deleted 28d ago
    [deleted]
  - j45 28d ago
    It might not be as common, but some authors do write something to get it out of their head.
- tyre 29d ago
  I can +1 who you're replying to in the context of founders and achieving a large dream (building a massive company.) I was in the Summer 2016 batch. Ten years out feels like long enough for some reflections on lives well-lived. There were people in my batch who were ambitious, not in climbing someone else's corporate ladder but in building their own massive/successful/wealthy company. For those who separated it from what they were passionate about—and here I mean the impact, not "passionate about building a big business”—there have been more than a few crash outs. Existential crises, Extremely Online Syndrome, pulled into a world where what VCs say or competition with press releases on Tech Crunch define their self-worth. These people are generally not happy. Some are! But many are not. The founders who worked on things that they care about—with technology or company-building as a _means_ to achieving some greater end—are doing much better. They might or might not still be at their start-ups. Many have gone on to work at other impactful companies or organizations. They seem much more content with life and their contributions to the world. That's the type of ambition that is healthy _and_ meaningful _and_ lasting. It's not that these people aren't ambitious—they very much are! But it's not "big company good". It's "big positive impact good."
  - cjblomqvist 28d ago
    In my experience, this is the kind of thing that one should explore when choosing co-founders. Misalignment here, at least the kind where you're not fully (100%!) okay with, and you're up for a painful journey. Maybe not at the beginning, but most likely at some point in time. The kind of thing that can ruin a lot, including causing an identity and life crisis.
faeyanpiraat 29d ago
I kinda agree with you but Could you please elaborate on “ having kids does all the good things in life at once” as I dont see how is that so straightforward. I’m actually currently really conflicted on the idea whether I want or dont want kids.
- mysterydip 29d ago
  I was on the fence for a long time as well. It just looked like a lot of work. And not to sugar coat it, it _is_ a lot of work. But it’s also been so rewarding. You get to see someone experience things for the first time, like riding a bike or eating a tomato. Teaching them it’s ok to have feelings, helping them overcome their fears, watching them make friends. Giving them the advice I wished I had heard from someone I trusted growing up. And a million other things. And the hug and kiss at night with “I love you daddy” can’t be replicated.
  - OvervCW 29d ago
    Surely a lot of this can be experienced by associating with parents and their children rather than having them yourself, right? This may sound somewhat reductive, and please correct me if that is the case, but I find that I can be around and play with my nephew and experience all of this wonder and how he progresses through life, while not being around for the sleepless nights and tantrums that I feel are the "work" part of being a parent.
    - blanched 29d ago
      In the spirit of this forum and at the risk of being very cringe, I’d guess that’s like being the founder of a company versus being one of the early employees :)
    - mysterydip 29d ago
      In part, for sure. I was an uncle for a long time, which formed part of my hesitation. But there’s a different level of investment and connection if you are responsible for something 24/7. Like visiting someone’s house and seeing their dog do a trick, vs having your own dog and training it. There’s people who can articulate it better than me, but (not to sound sappy about it) the first time I held my firstborn my world changed. Edit: I think another poster put it well that “it wasn’t about ‘me’ anymore”. Depending on your disposition, this could be great or it could be really bad. I’ve definitely changed for the better over the course of being a parent.
francisofascii 29d ago
Agree, but with the caveat. we have to develop ambition, passion, habits, and success in the right areas of life, so that the right partner wants to choose us. (We typically don't get to pick.)
- spicyusername 28d ago
  You pick when you choose them back.
deleted 29d ago
[deleted]
Aurornis 29d ago
> The chance of validation from others I feel like this is missing the point about why people in these situations are ambitious. Some are looking for external validation and jealousy from their peers. Most just want to be able to provide well for their families and get a point of having enough in the bank that the future feels secure. As a parent, the feeling of having enough in my career to have the financial stability and career options to ensure that my kids are always taken care of and can go to any education path they want without worrying about finances is huge. Knowing that I can retire young enough to spend a lot of time with them is also huge. It took a lot of ambition and hard work to get here, but I was never doing it for external validation.
ryan_n 29d ago
> The older I get the more I realize ambition and "being ambitious" is a completely misplaced way to orient your life. > Make decisions based on what you're passionate about, based on what will bring and keep meaningful relationships into your life, based on what will leave you with habits that take you outside, into the sun, moving your body and eating healthy, and, sure, that will afford you the ability to pay for those things. Most people are ambitious about one or more of those things. > Making decisions based on what will make you more "successful" will make you a slave to others approval Again, many of the things you listed above will make people more "successful". > Also, if you pick the right partner, having kids does all the good things in life at once. It is the most efficient way to get yourself into the good life possible. This is a broad generalization that does not apply to everyone.
- spicyusername 29d ago
  Do the things for the things in themselves. Don't do the things to be able to say you were someone who did the things.
- jasonmp85 29d ago
  [dead]
afavour 29d ago
While I agree with everything you say... I'd sure like to earn more money. It would make my life better and my kid's lives better. The surest path to achieving that is to be ambitious in the workplace. It's something I find myself constantly conflicted on.
- jareklupinski 28d ago
  > a life made of choices of that kind will eventually leave you spiritually bankrupt. > I'd sure like to earn more money. i heard a lyric a while back about being "unhappy with the riches, cuz you're p**-poor morally" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koVHN6eO4Xg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koVHN6eO4Xg
  - afavour 28d ago
    I’m not convinced it’s a binary thing like that. At the extreme end you have the father that steals bread to feed his starving family. At the other end you have the father that spends more time at work in pursuit of a promotion. I’m not sure that makes anyone morally piss-poor. Taking a job at Palantir in order to make an extra few hundred K… yeah, maybe that’s morally piss poor.
    - jareklupinski 28d ago
      it's definitely a multi-axis thing :) Aladdin makes me sympathize with stealing to feed your family, though The Protomen helped me place a balance between sacrificing for your family and working for personal ambitions
  - deleted 28d ago
    [deleted]
vadoff 29d ago
Being ambitious doesn't necessarily mean you're aiming for validation. It means you're aiming for a goal that's challenging. What drives that ambition is what matters. Many are driven by a desire to create real change, a desire to build, to solve a problem, and/or help people. Many do it simply because it's fun, but it doesn't make them any less ambitious.
dennis_jeeves2 29d ago
>Also, if you pick the right partner, For many (75%+ ?) even that is not an option. If they tried, they would be single forever(which is not a bad option in itself)
- tibbar 28d ago
  If 75% of people cannot find a good partner, that suggests that all involved would be well-served by learning how to be better partners themselves:)
davidguetta 29d ago
> The chance of validation i got the ick at that. i'm not ambitious for validation. i'm ambitious to maximize my agency, IN PARTICULAR from the need of validation non ambitious people typically have
glerk 29d ago
> The older I get the more I realize ambition and "being ambitious" is a completely misplaced way to orient your life. The older you get, the closer you get to being a corpse. That's not something to be proud of :) I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your comment in spirit, but you are conflating "ambition" with "seeking validation from others". The most passionate and driven people I know are intrinsically motivated and have ideals that go beyond social validation.
- dinkleberg 29d ago
  That is one way to look at it. But equally, the older you get, the longer you've fought off becoming a corpse.
  - glerk 28d ago
    Heh love the optimistic outlook, I'll keep that in mind!
pbreit 28d ago
Just remember, for 99.9% of us, work accomplishments are meaningless.
- geodel 28d ago
  I think about it. At one point job accomplisments mattered and later it stopped not because of having family, but also what mattered at work changed. All the tips, tricks, late night work, things I thought were clever, unique, frugal solutions were marked as hack, obsoleted solutions, need to be replaced by "industry standards" platforms. Of course things change, one learn and apply new skills, but underlying theme was new solutions will be done proper experts this time. While I have to hang around to explain and repent my past mistakes if I want to hold onto job.

deleted 29d ago

[deleted]

amouat 29d ago

I don't disagree, except that you've taken ambitious to mean climbing the corporate ladder, which is a relatively narrow reading. It can also mean wanting a achieve a large dream or goal e.g. writing a book.

code51 29d ago
Or the dream of keeping a stable job.
- deleted 29d ago
  [deleted]
- tonyedgecombe 29d ago
  The trouble with that is it's always someone else's decision whether you keep your job.
Aurornis 29d ago
Or the dream of financial security and early retirement, which are both highly valuable in the context of having a family. I couldn’t care less about the external validation part of it or my job title.
spicyusername 29d ago
Focusing on your passion for writing is more likely to produce the book than focusing on your desire to be able to say you were someone who finished a book. And who is being able to say you were someone who finished a book for? You? Or is it for someone else?
glitchc 29d ago
I think the OP's logic applies. Every author is hoping their book is a best-seller and/or wins awards i.e. the approval of others.
- sokoloff 29d ago
  I know a couple of O’Reilly authors. I don’t think any of them expected a best-seller or awards from their work, just “I get a high-four or barely-five figure payment for a competent treatment of a technical topic.” Maybe you could argue that’s a lightweight version of “approval of others”
  - theF00l 29d ago
    Surprised to hear that an O'Reilly book will net you less than a month of work for a SWE in the US and some parts of Europe. But I guess the reward is not the money but the expertise and signal.
    - geodel 28d ago
      That plus, online, in-person training opportunities.
    - FuriouslyAdrift 28d ago
      Here's an authors account of royalties received from the no. 2 best selling O'Reilly book at the time (around $500k over 6 years) https://martin.kleppmann.com/2020/09/29/is-book-writing-worth-it.html https://martin.kleppmann.com/2020/09/29/is-book-writing-wort...
- deleted 28d ago
  [deleted]
- j45 28d ago
  It might not be as common, but some authors do write something to get it out of their head.
tyre 29d ago
I can +1 who you're replying to in the context of founders and achieving a large dream (building a massive company.) I was in the Summer 2016 batch. Ten years out feels like long enough for some reflections on lives well-lived. There were people in my batch who were ambitious, not in climbing someone else's corporate ladder but in building their own massive/successful/wealthy company. For those who separated it from what they were passionate about—and here I mean the impact, not "passionate about building a big business”—there have been more than a few crash outs. Existential crises, Extremely Online Syndrome, pulled into a world where what VCs say or competition with press releases on Tech Crunch define their self-worth. These people are generally not happy. Some are! But many are not. The founders who worked on things that they care about—with technology or company-building as a _means_ to achieving some greater end—are doing much better. They might or might not still be at their start-ups. Many have gone on to work at other impactful companies or organizations. They seem much more content with life and their contributions to the world. That's the type of ambition that is healthy _and_ meaningful _and_ lasting. It's not that these people aren't ambitious—they very much are! But it's not "big company good". It's "big positive impact good."
- cjblomqvist 28d ago
  In my experience, this is the kind of thing that one should explore when choosing co-founders. Misalignment here, at least the kind where you're not fully (100%!) okay with, and you're up for a painful journey. Maybe not at the beginning, but most likely at some point in time. The kind of thing that can ruin a lot, including causing an identity and life crisis.

faeyanpiraat 29d ago

I kinda agree with you but Could you please elaborate on “ having kids does all the good things in life at once” as I dont see how is that so straightforward. I’m actually currently really conflicted on the idea whether I want or dont want kids.

mysterydip 29d ago
I was on the fence for a long time as well. It just looked like a lot of work. And not to sugar coat it, it _is_ a lot of work. But it’s also been so rewarding. You get to see someone experience things for the first time, like riding a bike or eating a tomato. Teaching them it’s ok to have feelings, helping them overcome their fears, watching them make friends. Giving them the advice I wished I had heard from someone I trusted growing up. And a million other things. And the hug and kiss at night with “I love you daddy” can’t be replicated.
- OvervCW 29d ago
  Surely a lot of this can be experienced by associating with parents and their children rather than having them yourself, right? This may sound somewhat reductive, and please correct me if that is the case, but I find that I can be around and play with my nephew and experience all of this wonder and how he progresses through life, while not being around for the sleepless nights and tantrums that I feel are the "work" part of being a parent.
  - blanched 29d ago
    In the spirit of this forum and at the risk of being very cringe, I’d guess that’s like being the founder of a company versus being one of the early employees :)
  - mysterydip 29d ago
    In part, for sure. I was an uncle for a long time, which formed part of my hesitation. But there’s a different level of investment and connection if you are responsible for something 24/7. Like visiting someone’s house and seeing their dog do a trick, vs having your own dog and training it. There’s people who can articulate it better than me, but (not to sound sappy about it) the first time I held my firstborn my world changed. Edit: I think another poster put it well that “it wasn’t about ‘me’ anymore”. Depending on your disposition, this could be great or it could be really bad. I’ve definitely changed for the better over the course of being a parent.

francisofascii 29d ago

Agree, but with the caveat. we have to develop ambition, passion, habits, and success in the right areas of life, so that the right partner wants to choose us. (We typically don't get to pick.)

spicyusername 28d ago
You pick when you choose them back.

deleted 29d ago

[deleted]

Aurornis 29d ago

> The chance of validation from others I feel like this is missing the point about why people in these situations are ambitious. Some are looking for external validation and jealousy from their peers. Most just want to be able to provide well for their families and get a point of having enough in the bank that the future feels secure. As a parent, the feeling of having enough in my career to have the financial stability and career options to ensure that my kids are always taken care of and can go to any education path they want without worrying about finances is huge. Knowing that I can retire young enough to spend a lot of time with them is also huge. It took a lot of ambition and hard work to get here, but I was never doing it for external validation.

ryan_n 29d ago

> The older I get the more I realize ambition and "being ambitious" is a completely misplaced way to orient your life. > Make decisions based on what you're passionate about, based on what will bring and keep meaningful relationships into your life, based on what will leave you with habits that take you outside, into the sun, moving your body and eating healthy, and, sure, that will afford you the ability to pay for those things. Most people are ambitious about one or more of those things. > Making decisions based on what will make you more "successful" will make you a slave to others approval Again, many of the things you listed above will make people more "successful". > Also, if you pick the right partner, having kids does all the good things in life at once. It is the most efficient way to get yourself into the good life possible. This is a broad generalization that does not apply to everyone.

spicyusername 29d ago
Do the things for the things in themselves. Don't do the things to be able to say you were someone who did the things.
jasonmp85 29d ago
[dead]

afavour 29d ago

While I agree with everything you say... I'd sure like to earn more money. It would make my life better and my kid's lives better. The surest path to achieving that is to be ambitious in the workplace. It's something I find myself constantly conflicted on.

jareklupinski 28d ago
> a life made of choices of that kind will eventually leave you spiritually bankrupt. > I'd sure like to earn more money. i heard a lyric a while back about being "unhappy with the riches, cuz you're p**-poor morally" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koVHN6eO4Xg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koVHN6eO4Xg
- afavour 28d ago
  I’m not convinced it’s a binary thing like that. At the extreme end you have the father that steals bread to feed his starving family. At the other end you have the father that spends more time at work in pursuit of a promotion. I’m not sure that makes anyone morally piss-poor. Taking a job at Palantir in order to make an extra few hundred K… yeah, maybe that’s morally piss poor.
  - jareklupinski 28d ago
    it's definitely a multi-axis thing :) Aladdin makes me sympathize with stealing to feed your family, though The Protomen helped me place a balance between sacrificing for your family and working for personal ambitions
- deleted 28d ago
  [deleted]

vadoff 29d ago

Being ambitious doesn't necessarily mean you're aiming for validation. It means you're aiming for a goal that's challenging. What drives that ambition is what matters. Many are driven by a desire to create real change, a desire to build, to solve a problem, and/or help people. Many do it simply because it's fun, but it doesn't make them any less ambitious.

dennis_jeeves2 29d ago

>Also, if you pick the right partner, For many (75%+ ?) even that is not an option. If they tried, they would be single forever(which is not a bad option in itself)

tibbar 28d ago
If 75% of people cannot find a good partner, that suggests that all involved would be well-served by learning how to be better partners themselves:)

davidguetta 29d ago

> The chance of validation i got the ick at that. i'm not ambitious for validation. i'm ambitious to maximize my agency, IN PARTICULAR from the need of validation non ambitious people typically have

glerk 29d ago

> The older I get the more I realize ambition and "being ambitious" is a completely misplaced way to orient your life. The older you get, the closer you get to being a corpse. That's not something to be proud of :) I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your comment in spirit, but you are conflating "ambition" with "seeking validation from others". The most passionate and driven people I know are intrinsically motivated and have ideals that go beyond social validation.

dinkleberg 29d ago
That is one way to look at it. But equally, the older you get, the longer you've fought off becoming a corpse.
- glerk 28d ago
  Heh love the optimistic outlook, I'll keep that in mind!

pbreit 28d ago

Just remember, for 99.9% of us, work accomplishments are meaningless.

geodel 28d ago
I think about it. At one point job accomplisments mattered and later it stopped not because of having family, but also what mattered at work changed. All the tips, tricks, late night work, things I thought were clever, unique, frugal solutions were marked as hack, obsoleted solutions, need to be replaced by "industry standards" platforms. Of course things change, one learn and apply new skills, but underlying theme was new solutions will be done proper experts this time. While I have to hang around to explain and repent my past mistakes if I want to hold onto job.