6 ms·

Have you considered talking about it? You're in a professional environment collectively working in a new way with a group of people. It's up to somebody to have

Have you considered talking about it? You're in a professional environment collectively working in a new way with a group of people. It's up to somebody to have opinions about what does and doesn't suck. If you silently go along and don't say anything you're dooming yourself and all of us to a lifetime of this garbage.

deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]
corndoge 1mo ago
Fighting the ocean is futile
- trip-zip 1mo ago
  So is completely eliminating litter, but I still pick it up when I pass it.
  - noisy_boy 1mo ago
    Everybody generally agrees on what is garbage. Lot of senior management doesn't think AI is garbage or even if they privately think so, they don't say that openly. Falling in line, peer pressure, not wanting to come across as anti-AI luddite etc. All those issues affect the individual contributors too + the added challenge of perception in front of those who decide the bonus and lately, continued employment. In this fucked up job market, it is easier said than done.
    - abustamam 1mo ago
      I feel like the chain kinda goes all the way to the top, to the level of shareholders. My boss needs to give his boss the perception that the engineering team is firing on all cylinders and has high velocity, so that he can sell that story to shareholders who could easily invest in another "AI-native" company and make more money because they're growing like crazy. I feel like it's all just perception and how companies can sell their stories to investors or potential acquirers, and everything else can be punted and dealt with later when we get acquired or when share prices are a zillion dollars etc. It's a race to the bottom, for sure.
- delecti 1mo ago
  It's not the ocean, it's the poster's own team. A simple "AI comments suck" in a sprint retro would be trivially easy and would at least start the conversation.
  - VohuMana 1mo ago
    I think the biggest issue might not be the immediate team but upper leadership. Companies which have mandated AI usage override a lot of what an individual or individual team wants. If that’s the case then it would be a lot like fighting the ocean, especially if your immediate team sees having AI write docs as an easy way to move the needle on LT’s AI monitoring dashboard.
  - stronglikedan 1mo ago
    Doesn't matter. You'll come off as the baddie. It's the foreseeable future. Best just to learn how to interpret AI generated shit, or learn how to run it through AI and have it translate it to a more concise format without all the buzzwords. It'll take getting used to, but it'll save your career.
    - wpietri 1mo ago
      You don't have to come across as the baddie. There are plenty of neutral ways to start the conversation. E.g., "I notice that there's a lot more generated comments lately. How much are people finding those useful?" If you really want to save your career, learning how to have real conversations is a vital skill.
      - mannanj 1mo ago
        Have you worked in corporate recently or at a particularly toxic one? Asking because when I was at capital one, certain comments or questions about topics like this, would actually get you noticed negatively by your manager and being disruptive to what leadership wants hurts your career. In fact being the one to ask and point out questions like yours ultimately got me PIP'ed and removed from the company. So, like, yeah, being vulnerable and the first one to tell the truth is risky. That's why the bystander effect can happen and in politics or risky situations silence is a common response, and why we don't have more courageous people doing the right thing - because the risk is higher on the person speaking up and the rewards aren't disproportionately in their favor (but are evenly distributed though, so its not favorable for you as I learned from a game theory perspective to voice up / defend certain stances).
- a34729t 1mo ago
  Literally pissing in an ocean of piss.
  - anon7725 1mo ago
    Analogy-wise, wouldn't it be adding a cup of water to an ocean of piss?
    - abustamam 1mo ago
      It'd be taking a cup of piss out of the ocean of piss i think!
LPisGood 1mo ago
Yes, talking about it repeatedly has been my process. Individual PRs have been changed but the 4 the next day look the same. The typical response is that they did change the (massive and wordy) PR overview from what AI said, even if it was obviously a minimal change at best. I can’t really argue against lying and going through and picking out every LLMism is not so productive in my opinion. I don’t have time to go through and flag everything or even read the thousands of lines of code changes that are happening.
eudamoniac 1mo ago
I've tried doing this, politely pushing back on problems happening from AI use, and it led to a not-so-subtle implication from my manager that I need to STFU or I'll be out of here (Cisco).
atomicnumber3 1mo ago
No, if he speaks against it he gets labeled "anti-AI" and laid off or not promoted. If he stays silent he retains his job. Corporate Capitalism's main innovation was virtualizing feudalism. Now anyone with a bit of cash flow can be a feudal lord with peasants to do his will. No need to maintain land or fight over it with other feudal lords. There's still fighting, naturally, but now the game isn't zero sum. The serfs don't get any real say in this model. At best you can bend the lord's ear if you're sufficiently trusted an advisor. But part of the reason you're trusted is to be trusted not to treat the lord like he's too much of an idiot. A huge problem is that capitalism rewards cash flows and accumulated capital so powerfully that lots of other things just don't matter, potentially for a very long time. Look at GitHub. This leads to immensely extended fuck around phases and "find out" looks like IBM (fossilization and bizarre holdings corporation / dead company parking lot) just as often as it looks like Enron.
- brabel 1mo ago
  > The serfs don't get any real say in this model I am a programmer but also in management, and if I knew my team thought like that I would be horrified. We absolutely care about what the team members want , like, hate etc. I for once would love someone to bring up stuff like this to me. As long as they are as open minded about things as they would like me to be, there is no issue. But it’s a serious issue to pretend everything is fine while thinking like you say.
  - keosak 1mo ago
    > We absolutely care about what the team members want , like, hate etc. Do the people above you in management care as much? It's the top levels of management that decide hiring, firing and budgets.
    - atomicnumber3 29d ago
      Correct. I do believe my _manager_ wants me to have a say etc. but I also know my manager has terrifically little power overall. "In management" just means you can't unionize and have to dance to the company tune.
etruong42 29d ago
You might be presuming a culture that protects free expression. Free expression is hard to protect. Sure, you could express your experience, but it could threaten or offend someone "with power" and they use their "power" to punish you and suppress the ideas you're trying to express.

deleted 1mo ago

[deleted]

corndoge 1mo ago

Fighting the ocean is futile

trip-zip 1mo ago
So is completely eliminating litter, but I still pick it up when I pass it.
- noisy_boy 1mo ago
  Everybody generally agrees on what is garbage. Lot of senior management doesn't think AI is garbage or even if they privately think so, they don't say that openly. Falling in line, peer pressure, not wanting to come across as anti-AI luddite etc. All those issues affect the individual contributors too + the added challenge of perception in front of those who decide the bonus and lately, continued employment. In this fucked up job market, it is easier said than done.
  - abustamam 1mo ago
    I feel like the chain kinda goes all the way to the top, to the level of shareholders. My boss needs to give his boss the perception that the engineering team is firing on all cylinders and has high velocity, so that he can sell that story to shareholders who could easily invest in another "AI-native" company and make more money because they're growing like crazy. I feel like it's all just perception and how companies can sell their stories to investors or potential acquirers, and everything else can be punted and dealt with later when we get acquired or when share prices are a zillion dollars etc. It's a race to the bottom, for sure.
delecti 1mo ago
It's not the ocean, it's the poster's own team. A simple "AI comments suck" in a sprint retro would be trivially easy and would at least start the conversation.
- VohuMana 1mo ago
  I think the biggest issue might not be the immediate team but upper leadership. Companies which have mandated AI usage override a lot of what an individual or individual team wants. If that’s the case then it would be a lot like fighting the ocean, especially if your immediate team sees having AI write docs as an easy way to move the needle on LT’s AI monitoring dashboard.
- stronglikedan 1mo ago
  Doesn't matter. You'll come off as the baddie. It's the foreseeable future. Best just to learn how to interpret AI generated shit, or learn how to run it through AI and have it translate it to a more concise format without all the buzzwords. It'll take getting used to, but it'll save your career.
  - wpietri 1mo ago
    You don't have to come across as the baddie. There are plenty of neutral ways to start the conversation. E.g., "I notice that there's a lot more generated comments lately. How much are people finding those useful?" If you really want to save your career, learning how to have real conversations is a vital skill.
    - mannanj 1mo ago
      Have you worked in corporate recently or at a particularly toxic one? Asking because when I was at capital one, certain comments or questions about topics like this, would actually get you noticed negatively by your manager and being disruptive to what leadership wants hurts your career. In fact being the one to ask and point out questions like yours ultimately got me PIP'ed and removed from the company. So, like, yeah, being vulnerable and the first one to tell the truth is risky. That's why the bystander effect can happen and in politics or risky situations silence is a common response, and why we don't have more courageous people doing the right thing - because the risk is higher on the person speaking up and the rewards aren't disproportionately in their favor (but are evenly distributed though, so its not favorable for you as I learned from a game theory perspective to voice up / defend certain stances).
a34729t 1mo ago
Literally pissing in an ocean of piss.
- anon7725 1mo ago
  Analogy-wise, wouldn't it be adding a cup of water to an ocean of piss?
  - abustamam 1mo ago
    It'd be taking a cup of piss out of the ocean of piss i think!

LPisGood 1mo ago

Yes, talking about it repeatedly has been my process. Individual PRs have been changed but the 4 the next day look the same. The typical response is that they did change the (massive and wordy) PR overview from what AI said, even if it was obviously a minimal change at best. I can’t really argue against lying and going through and picking out every LLMism is not so productive in my opinion. I don’t have time to go through and flag everything or even read the thousands of lines of code changes that are happening.

eudamoniac 1mo ago

I've tried doing this, politely pushing back on problems happening from AI use, and it led to a not-so-subtle implication from my manager that I need to STFU or I'll be out of here (Cisco).

atomicnumber3 1mo ago

No, if he speaks against it he gets labeled "anti-AI" and laid off or not promoted. If he stays silent he retains his job. Corporate Capitalism's main innovation was virtualizing feudalism. Now anyone with a bit of cash flow can be a feudal lord with peasants to do his will. No need to maintain land or fight over it with other feudal lords. There's still fighting, naturally, but now the game isn't zero sum. The serfs don't get any real say in this model. At best you can bend the lord's ear if you're sufficiently trusted an advisor. But part of the reason you're trusted is to be trusted not to treat the lord like he's too much of an idiot. A huge problem is that capitalism rewards cash flows and accumulated capital so powerfully that lots of other things just don't matter, potentially for a very long time. Look at GitHub. This leads to immensely extended fuck around phases and "find out" looks like IBM (fossilization and bizarre holdings corporation / dead company parking lot) just as often as it looks like Enron.

brabel 1mo ago
> The serfs don't get any real say in this model I am a programmer but also in management, and if I knew my team thought like that I would be horrified. We absolutely care about what the team members want , like, hate etc. I for once would love someone to bring up stuff like this to me. As long as they are as open minded about things as they would like me to be, there is no issue. But it’s a serious issue to pretend everything is fine while thinking like you say.
- keosak 1mo ago
  > We absolutely care about what the team members want , like, hate etc. Do the people above you in management care as much? It's the top levels of management that decide hiring, firing and budgets.
  - atomicnumber3 29d ago
    Correct. I do believe my _manager_ wants me to have a say etc. but I also know my manager has terrifically little power overall. "In management" just means you can't unionize and have to dance to the company tune.

etruong42 29d ago

You might be presuming a culture that protects free expression. Free expression is hard to protect. Sure, you could express your experience, but it could threaten or offend someone "with power" and they use their "power" to punish you and suppress the ideas you're trying to express.