9 ms·

Are normal adults not "working" in a similar way to your kid for 15+ hours per weekday? Comparable adult parent things would be up at 6am, prep kids for school

by bradfa 1mo ago

Are normal adults not "working" in a similar way to your kid for 15+ hours per weekday? Comparable adult parent things would be up at 6am, prep kids for school day, in the office by 8am, 8 hours of work plus a lunch, departing the office around 5pm, transporting kids to/from some activities, dinner, helping kids with homework, somehow fit in regular shopping needs (food, essentials, etc), maybe some volunteering or hobby things, if lucky in bed by 10pm, and we're easily at 15 hours of "work" on a weekday. Yes, it's a lot.

alephnerd 1mo ago
Naw. Adult life is so much easier with regards to competitive pressure compared to getting into a good college. The real world is Pass/Fail, much to the chagrin of plenty of HNers.
- joezydeco 1mo ago
  And we shouldn't expect adult/parent level of work out a 16/17 year-old. There's no time left any more to be a kid.
  - bradfa 1mo ago
    Your comment specifically compared it to the normal adult, my point is the normal adult who is a parent is very likely doing even more than your example of your kid. Even for adults who aren't in the elite high earner category, heck people who make less money are likely working even more hours per day just to make ends meet.
    - Broken_Hippo 1mo ago
      How, exactly, are they working more? How many low-paying jobs offer overtime, if they are full time at all? Any clue how many jobs won't let you work a part-time job or won't work around another job? Can't exactly work for Uber if you can't afford a decent enough car. And this is assuming you have older children that don't need childcare. The fact is that they aren't working extra, not for a job anyway. The extra work comes in the time making dried beans instead of buying canned, in repairing stuff poorly, in shopping around for a doctor that takes the state health insurance or an affordable option if you have none at all, in taking busses (if they are available), and other unpaid things. Your child will be lucky to afford the activities that gets them a 'good' education, especially if they have to work.
      - tetromino_ 1mo ago
        > not for a job anyway That is exactly OP's point: for OP, if a child's "working hours" includes university prep and resume-padding sports activities, then an adult's "working hours" includes housework, grocery shopping, dealing with insurance and taxes, and commute/family chauffeur time.
    - watwut 1mo ago
      As adult with job and kids, I honestly don't work as much as a kid described in that comment. It is in fact way less competitive. I get a good pay, my job is reasonably interesting (ai can make it sux and probably will, but we are not there yet). There are parts that sux or where I am under pressure, but overall, it is better to be an adult then to be teenager trying to get to competitive school. And for the record, I had to work less to get to good school back then.
  - alephnerd 1mo ago
    Absolutely. I think some degree of competitive attitude should be developed, but admissions since the late 2000s have become hyper-competitive. Pressure makes diamonds, but it also crushes everything else.
    - speff 1mo ago
      "It takes a ton of pressure to make a diamond". I read that in a game when I was a kid and took it as a guiding principle in my life. Overcoming hard times absolutely made me a better person, but as I've grown I've seen many examples of the fallout you're referring to. Sometimes people just break.
    - nukethebay 1mo ago
      [dead]
  - rayiner 1mo ago
    16 year olds aren’t kids. My dad was in boarding school in bangladesh at that age working 16 hour days (which is why I don’t have to live there).
    - basisword 1mo ago
      Things change, thankfully.
      - rayiner 1mo ago
        Why should we change the practice of putting people to work to build civilization when they’re at their physical and energetic peak? In his early 20s my dad helped overthrow the Pakistani government, and by his late 20s and early 30s he was helping tackle the astronomical infant and maternal mortality in the country. Why shouldn’t our young people in America work?
  - Aurornis 1mo ago
    > There's no time left any more to be a kid. I have several hobbies that are popular with kids (mountain biking, rock climbing, and some others). I can assure you that there are plenty of kids with more time than I have to dedicate to these hobbies at every popular spot I go to. Many of them are ambitious, smart, and working toward top universities, too. It’s actually fun energy to be around. The parent comment about students getting up at 6:30AM and working 15 hour days is highly unusual.
- boelboel 1mo ago
  Sometimes I wonder where all these HNers work. The majority of "slightly below top companies" seem to consist of mediocre workers, which is fine. Employees are just doing their job and if they fuck up, even badly, it's not too difficult for them to get a new job. Meanwhile a student getting a few subpar grades, often for reasons beyond their control, should somehow be punished forever.
  - lotsofpulp 1mo ago
    >Employees are just doing their job and if they fuck up, even badly, it's not too difficult for them to get a new job. This might be news to many people. Or do you mean it’s not too difficult to get a new job at Walmart?
    - geodel 1mo ago
      Building crud, bagging crud, greeting crud. All the same.
    - boelboel 1mo ago
      If they had experience at good companies I think the odds are better than the student getting into a good university after fucking up some classes.
  - mrngld 1mo ago
    I don't get all this existential talk about college acceptance. Yes, elite schools should expect elite applicants. Meanwhile, the state school down the road is a fraction the cost, teaches a lot of the same content, and will accept anyone with a pulse. In my state, at least. State universities are somewhat competitive to get into, but state colleges... wide open. All of which is very real-world. Certain top firms recruit only top candidates. Everyone else works somewhere further along the spectrum.
    - nukethebay 1mo ago
      [dead]
    - 1mo ago
- kakacik 1mo ago
  Only if you make it so. Good college/university means little in many jobs. The best devs for example (and most paid correspondingly since they knew their value very well) I've ever met were either coming out of subpar schools or skipped university altogether. I myself went through mediocre noname university in eastern Europe with OK grades and it didn't matter at all, now I get perm salary thats better than 99% of devs in whole Europe while doing just that and nothing more, while sporting 10 weeks of paid vacation yearly. Quality of life further down the line, success and happiness are extremely non-correlated with all this academic stuff. Its just control freak helicopter parents, which, albeit with good underlying intentions, fuck up everything they touch, including mental health of their kids. So kids compete just to endlessly compete while winning less than nothing. This is how deep regrets later in life are made.
- Aurornis 1mo ago
  > Adult life is so much easier with regards to competitive pressure compared to getting into a good college You’re competing apples and oranges. Getting into a top college is similar to grinding to get into Big Tech jobs and then climb the ladder there. Good colleges are easy. The top few colleges are very hard. > The real world is Pass/Fail, much to the chagrin of plenty of HNers. If by “fail” you mean lose your job in the next round of layoffs and have your career derailed, possibly. You’re still comparing apples and oranges. The people who compete for top college spots usually continue competing for promotions and better paying jobs. The people who coast through high school look for jobs where they can coast and then get comfortable with whatever salary that provides them.
  - alephnerd 1mo ago
    > Good colleges are easy. The top few colleges are very hard Define "good" and "top". Ivies, Ivy Tier privates (Stanford, MIT, Duke, Northwestern, Chicago, NYU, Caltech, Georgetown, CMU), and Ivy Tier public schools (Cal, UCLA, UCSD, Mich, UIUC, UW, UT, GT, Purdue, UNC Chapel Hill, UVA) all recruit from the same student body. Thanks to the Common App, UC App, Coalition App, and ApplyTexas it's marginal effort to apply to all the colleges above in addition to the "good" tier. The Good tier of publics (the rest of the UCs, the rest of the Big 10, UTD, SJSU, CalPoly, NCSU, William&Mary, VT, Rutgers) and privates (Claremont Colleges, Seven Sisters, Vandy, etc) end up with plenty of kids who couldn't mkae it to the top which also makes them more competitive. Outcomes at Good and Top are the same for most cases, but both are similarly competitive. The kind of profile that gets you into CS@UCR today would have gotten you into EECS@Berkeley a decade ago.
techjamie 1mo ago
That's also assuming you have children. I'm childfree and most days are all mine once I punch out unless I've got stuff to triage here and there.
- b0rtb0rt 1mo ago
  he meant actual adults with responsibilities
  - pirates 1mo ago
    Reactions like this always make me appreciate not having kids.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 1mo ago
Children are part of hobbies. Very challenging at times, but for example I sleep with my kid hugging me, or I chat with them while in the car, or we do chores while watching tv or something like that. And not every day is packed like that, you can tell your kids "no more than 3 times per week of activties, the other 2 days are for playdates", and that should be acceptable. There are horrible days of the week, but it's not daily 15 hours of work. That's training for slavery. Homework for break and homework for weekend should be STRONGLY ILLEGAL.
- davidgay 1mo ago
  > Children are part of hobbies. That is a weird (modern?) delusion. Without children, our species disappears in <100 years. And the last of those years would be painful for those still alive. Those who are having and raising children are the ones doing the most for the next generation.
  - Aurornis 1mo ago
    You took an unfairly uncharitable interpretation of that comment. It wasn’t saying that children are hobbies. It’s saying that time spent with children is enjoyable and time spent with them is not an enjoyable chore.
    - Fire-Dragon-DoL 1mo ago
      Thank you, I realized that could be misunderstood only afterwards. I consider hobbies highly important for my mental health, so children are highly important too
  - Fire-Dragon-DoL 1mo ago
    No, I am not saying that in a negative way. I have kids and I love them deeply. I am saying that the people who have kids now are aware of how much effort it involves, so they consider it "part of hobbies" (as in, interesting things), not as part of "chores". Modern society requires that, otherwise people just have no kids. And yes absolutely, the government overlooks entirely all the work that goes into parenting now. The standards have raised enormously.
_zoltan_ 1mo ago
we wake up at 7, prep the kids to school, they walk there alone then, we have coffee together, then I drive to the office by usually 9:30. have a proper lunch break with colleagues, then in the office until 6pm or so, then drive home, have dinner, put the kids in bed by 8, then we can watch a movie/do hobbies/etc. while I work, my wife can do the shopping and take care of other household chores if needed.
- bakies 1mo ago
  No one my age can afford a stay at home wife
  - firesteelrain 1mo ago
    How old are you? Wife has been stay at home mom since 2006. And that was when I made $40k/yr.
    - bakies 1mo ago
      30
      - firesteelrain 1mo ago
        Everyone’s situation is different. It can be done.
        bakies 1mo ago
        Yeah...
      - vel0city 1mo ago
        I've known many families around that age (+/- 5 years) with a stay at home spouse taking care of multiple kids. It really shapes their lifestyle in a lot of ways (smaller/older house, rarely eat out, rarely big family vacations, clothes/toys often from secondhand consignment stores, fewer/cheaper vehicles, etc.), but that's what's important to them so that's how they've set their priorities. Most didn't come from extremely wealthy backgrounds so its not necessarily like other wealthy people are propping them up, although a few are like that. It may very well be impossible in certain markets but I wouldn't say its true across every family with the parents being around 30 years old.

by bradfa 1mo ago

alephnerd 1mo ago

Naw. Adult life is so much easier with regards to competitive pressure compared to getting into a good college. The real world is Pass/Fail, much to the chagrin of plenty of HNers.

joezydeco 1mo ago
And we shouldn't expect adult/parent level of work out a 16/17 year-old. There's no time left any more to be a kid.
- bradfa 1mo ago
  Your comment specifically compared it to the normal adult, my point is the normal adult who is a parent is very likely doing even more than your example of your kid. Even for adults who aren't in the elite high earner category, heck people who make less money are likely working even more hours per day just to make ends meet.
  - Broken_Hippo 1mo ago
    How, exactly, are they working more? How many low-paying jobs offer overtime, if they are full time at all? Any clue how many jobs won't let you work a part-time job or won't work around another job? Can't exactly work for Uber if you can't afford a decent enough car. And this is assuming you have older children that don't need childcare. The fact is that they aren't working extra, not for a job anyway. The extra work comes in the time making dried beans instead of buying canned, in repairing stuff poorly, in shopping around for a doctor that takes the state health insurance or an affordable option if you have none at all, in taking busses (if they are available), and other unpaid things. Your child will be lucky to afford the activities that gets them a 'good' education, especially if they have to work.
    - tetromino_ 1mo ago
      > not for a job anyway That is exactly OP's point: for OP, if a child's "working hours" includes university prep and resume-padding sports activities, then an adult's "working hours" includes housework, grocery shopping, dealing with insurance and taxes, and commute/family chauffeur time.
  - watwut 1mo ago
    As adult with job and kids, I honestly don't work as much as a kid described in that comment. It is in fact way less competitive. I get a good pay, my job is reasonably interesting (ai can make it sux and probably will, but we are not there yet). There are parts that sux or where I am under pressure, but overall, it is better to be an adult then to be teenager trying to get to competitive school. And for the record, I had to work less to get to good school back then.
- alephnerd 1mo ago
  Absolutely. I think some degree of competitive attitude should be developed, but admissions since the late 2000s have become hyper-competitive. Pressure makes diamonds, but it also crushes everything else.
  - speff 1mo ago
    "It takes a ton of pressure to make a diamond". I read that in a game when I was a kid and took it as a guiding principle in my life. Overcoming hard times absolutely made me a better person, but as I've grown I've seen many examples of the fallout you're referring to. Sometimes people just break.
  - nukethebay 1mo ago
    [dead]
- rayiner 1mo ago
  16 year olds aren’t kids. My dad was in boarding school in bangladesh at that age working 16 hour days (which is why I don’t have to live there).
  - basisword 1mo ago
    Things change, thankfully.
    - rayiner 1mo ago
      Why should we change the practice of putting people to work to build civilization when they’re at their physical and energetic peak? In his early 20s my dad helped overthrow the Pakistani government, and by his late 20s and early 30s he was helping tackle the astronomical infant and maternal mortality in the country. Why shouldn’t our young people in America work?
- Aurornis 1mo ago
  > There's no time left any more to be a kid. I have several hobbies that are popular with kids (mountain biking, rock climbing, and some others). I can assure you that there are plenty of kids with more time than I have to dedicate to these hobbies at every popular spot I go to. Many of them are ambitious, smart, and working toward top universities, too. It’s actually fun energy to be around. The parent comment about students getting up at 6:30AM and working 15 hour days is highly unusual.
boelboel 1mo ago
Sometimes I wonder where all these HNers work. The majority of "slightly below top companies" seem to consist of mediocre workers, which is fine. Employees are just doing their job and if they fuck up, even badly, it's not too difficult for them to get a new job. Meanwhile a student getting a few subpar grades, often for reasons beyond their control, should somehow be punished forever.
- lotsofpulp 1mo ago
  >Employees are just doing their job and if they fuck up, even badly, it's not too difficult for them to get a new job. This might be news to many people. Or do you mean it’s not too difficult to get a new job at Walmart?
  - geodel 1mo ago
    Building crud, bagging crud, greeting crud. All the same.
  - boelboel 1mo ago
    If they had experience at good companies I think the odds are better than the student getting into a good university after fucking up some classes.
- mrngld 1mo ago
  I don't get all this existential talk about college acceptance. Yes, elite schools should expect elite applicants. Meanwhile, the state school down the road is a fraction the cost, teaches a lot of the same content, and will accept anyone with a pulse. In my state, at least. State universities are somewhat competitive to get into, but state colleges... wide open. All of which is very real-world. Certain top firms recruit only top candidates. Everyone else works somewhere further along the spectrum.
  - nukethebay 1mo ago
    [dead]
  - 1mo ago
kakacik 1mo ago
Only if you make it so. Good college/university means little in many jobs. The best devs for example (and most paid correspondingly since they knew their value very well) I've ever met were either coming out of subpar schools or skipped university altogether. I myself went through mediocre noname university in eastern Europe with OK grades and it didn't matter at all, now I get perm salary thats better than 99% of devs in whole Europe while doing just that and nothing more, while sporting 10 weeks of paid vacation yearly. Quality of life further down the line, success and happiness are extremely non-correlated with all this academic stuff. Its just control freak helicopter parents, which, albeit with good underlying intentions, fuck up everything they touch, including mental health of their kids. So kids compete just to endlessly compete while winning less than nothing. This is how deep regrets later in life are made.
Aurornis 1mo ago
> Adult life is so much easier with regards to competitive pressure compared to getting into a good college You’re competing apples and oranges. Getting into a top college is similar to grinding to get into Big Tech jobs and then climb the ladder there. Good colleges are easy. The top few colleges are very hard. > The real world is Pass/Fail, much to the chagrin of plenty of HNers. If by “fail” you mean lose your job in the next round of layoffs and have your career derailed, possibly. You’re still comparing apples and oranges. The people who compete for top college spots usually continue competing for promotions and better paying jobs. The people who coast through high school look for jobs where they can coast and then get comfortable with whatever salary that provides them.
- alephnerd 1mo ago
  > Good colleges are easy. The top few colleges are very hard Define "good" and "top". Ivies, Ivy Tier privates (Stanford, MIT, Duke, Northwestern, Chicago, NYU, Caltech, Georgetown, CMU), and Ivy Tier public schools (Cal, UCLA, UCSD, Mich, UIUC, UW, UT, GT, Purdue, UNC Chapel Hill, UVA) all recruit from the same student body. Thanks to the Common App, UC App, Coalition App, and ApplyTexas it's marginal effort to apply to all the colleges above in addition to the "good" tier. The Good tier of publics (the rest of the UCs, the rest of the Big 10, UTD, SJSU, CalPoly, NCSU, William&Mary, VT, Rutgers) and privates (Claremont Colleges, Seven Sisters, Vandy, etc) end up with plenty of kids who couldn't mkae it to the top which also makes them more competitive. Outcomes at Good and Top are the same for most cases, but both are similarly competitive. The kind of profile that gets you into CS@UCR today would have gotten you into EECS@Berkeley a decade ago.

techjamie 1mo ago

That's also assuming you have children. I'm childfree and most days are all mine once I punch out unless I've got stuff to triage here and there.

b0rtb0rt 1mo ago
he meant actual adults with responsibilities
- pirates 1mo ago
  Reactions like this always make me appreciate not having kids.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 1mo ago

Children are part of hobbies. Very challenging at times, but for example I sleep with my kid hugging me, or I chat with them while in the car, or we do chores while watching tv or something like that. And not every day is packed like that, you can tell your kids "no more than 3 times per week of activties, the other 2 days are for playdates", and that should be acceptable. There are horrible days of the week, but it's not daily 15 hours of work. That's training for slavery. Homework for break and homework for weekend should be STRONGLY ILLEGAL.

davidgay 1mo ago
> Children are part of hobbies. That is a weird (modern?) delusion. Without children, our species disappears in <100 years. And the last of those years would be painful for those still alive. Those who are having and raising children are the ones doing the most for the next generation.
- Aurornis 1mo ago
  You took an unfairly uncharitable interpretation of that comment. It wasn’t saying that children are hobbies. It’s saying that time spent with children is enjoyable and time spent with them is not an enjoyable chore.
  - Fire-Dragon-DoL 1mo ago
    Thank you, I realized that could be misunderstood only afterwards. I consider hobbies highly important for my mental health, so children are highly important too
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 1mo ago
  No, I am not saying that in a negative way. I have kids and I love them deeply. I am saying that the people who have kids now are aware of how much effort it involves, so they consider it "part of hobbies" (as in, interesting things), not as part of "chores". Modern society requires that, otherwise people just have no kids. And yes absolutely, the government overlooks entirely all the work that goes into parenting now. The standards have raised enormously.

_zoltan_ 1mo ago

we wake up at 7, prep the kids to school, they walk there alone then, we have coffee together, then I drive to the office by usually 9:30. have a proper lunch break with colleagues, then in the office until 6pm or so, then drive home, have dinner, put the kids in bed by 8, then we can watch a movie/do hobbies/etc. while I work, my wife can do the shopping and take care of other household chores if needed.

bakies 1mo ago
No one my age can afford a stay at home wife
- firesteelrain 1mo ago
  How old are you? Wife has been stay at home mom since 2006. And that was when I made $40k/yr.
  - bakies 1mo ago
    30
    - firesteelrain 1mo ago
      Everyone’s situation is different. It can be done.
      - bakies 1mo ago
        Yeah...
    - vel0city 1mo ago
      I've known many families around that age (+/- 5 years) with a stay at home spouse taking care of multiple kids. It really shapes their lifestyle in a lot of ways (smaller/older house, rarely eat out, rarely big family vacations, clothes/toys often from secondhand consignment stores, fewer/cheaper vehicles, etc.), but that's what's important to them so that's how they've set their priorities. Most didn't come from extremely wealthy backgrounds so its not necessarily like other wealthy people are propping them up, although a few are like that. It may very well be impossible in certain markets but I wouldn't say its true across every family with the parents being around 30 years old.