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This was a very significant talking point through most of covid, actually. Granted, there is an orders-of-magnitude disparity between office buildings and data

This was a very significant talking point through most of covid, actually. Granted, there is an orders-of-magnitude disparity between office buildings and data centers regarding both their resource consumption and their local financial return through employment. Its no surprise that the attitude towards data centers is much more negative.

tptacek 1mo ago
Not really, no? I'm not saying office buildings are "just as bad" as data centers; I'm saying they're substantially worse. It is much more unpleasant to have an office building next to your home than it is to have one of the CyrusOne Aurora data centers. The data center is --- seriously go look at them --- basically like having a park next door.
- jrflowers 1mo ago
  Wait are you saying office buildings bring less to the community because so, so, so many more people work in them than in data centers Do you think a community is your house
  - tptacek 1mo ago
    The office buildings next to the CyrusOne data centers in the western suburbs are not filled with people from Aurora. They're filled with commuters.
    - jrflowers 1mo ago
      That’s wild, where do all the people from Aurora work? The data centers? Also what does the specific building or set of buildings you hate in one town have to do with the concept of office buildings
      - tptacek 1mo ago
        I've lost track of what your argument is. Mine is that office buildings are not generally filled with workers from the immediate municipality in which they're situated. We're talking about office buildings because office buildings and data centers are both large-format commercial real estate developments.
        jrflowers 1mo ago
        >are you saying office buildings bring less to the community because so, so, so many more people work in them than in data centers >Mine is that office buildings are not generally filled with workers from the immediate municipality in which they're situated. Since neither are data centers, which aren’t filled with workers, you could’ve just said “yeah” “Office buildings bring less to communities than data centers because of all the people that work in them” lmao
      - gilthelander 1mo ago
        > That’s wild, where do all the people from Aurora work? Last I checked, Aurora had a large blue-collar Latino population, many of whom are successful tradespeople. These people commute to construction sites elsewhere during the day, and perhaps your own neighborhood, where HN posters snitch to the town if they use a leaf blower within 1500' of their home office.
        jrflowers 1mo ago
        > These people commute to construction sites elsewhere during the day While it is a shame that tptacek has to see “commuters“ going both ways it is good to know that the people of Aurora have this beautiful park https://www.cyrusone.com/data-centers/north-america/aurora-il https://www.cyrusone.com/data-centers/north-america/aurora-i...
        tptacek 1mo ago
        I don't know what you think this link shows, but you can just jump to CHI1 on Google Maps (or, you know, drive there) to see what that area looks like.
    - lovich 1mo ago
      Do they not eat lunch? Or do any local shopping? The literal foot traffic of office workers was a major reason brought up by cities trying to force companies to RTO post pandemic.
- MrDrMcCoy 1mo ago
  Office buildings employ considerably more people, support nearby restaurants, consume less power and water, produce virtually no infrasound, and are more attractive than data centers. I'd rather have an office building next to my house than a data center, especially if they would not be providing me colocation services at a steep discount.
  - tptacek 1mo ago
    Office buildings are not more attractive than data centers; that's my whole argument. In format, massing, and design, data centers essentially are office buildings, just with drastically less parking. Asphalt is the biggest eyesore in commercial real estate. (Data centers consume immaterial amounts of water.)
    - rtpg 1mo ago
      Drastically less parking, so way less jobs in the local area right? Like maybe the municipality doesn't care because a lot of jobs are filled by people coming in from an hour away, but surely the inverse of "I am sad because <some job source in my area> closed" is "I am happy because <some job source in my area> opened", right? I get what you're saying about the buildings themselves. I just think that, in the abstract and all else being equal (it isn't of course!) "big box for 50 jobs" and "big box for 200 jobs", one seems nicer. Maybe I'm overestimating the job differential. And this is all a bit of a false dichotomy anyways
      - tptacek 1mo ago
        First, no, all these buildings have wildly overprovisioned parking. Most of the lots are empty. I'd encourage people wondering about this to just go drive out to an office complex in a suburb near them and look. Second, no, these jobs are not generally filled by neighbors of the office complexes, or even people from the muni where the office complex is situated. The big box for 50 jobs is also a nicer building to have near you, at least when we're talking about the data centers you find in the western suburbs of Chicago.
- watwut 1mo ago
  This is not true. Office buildings are non issue and also imply more shops, restaurants, cafes and generally walkable environment.

tptacek 1mo ago

Not really, no? I'm not saying office buildings are "just as bad" as data centers; I'm saying they're substantially worse. It is much more unpleasant to have an office building next to your home than it is to have one of the CyrusOne Aurora data centers. The data center is --- seriously go look at them --- basically like having a park next door.

jrflowers 1mo ago
Wait are you saying office buildings bring less to the community because so, so, so many more people work in them than in data centers Do you think a community is your house
- tptacek 1mo ago
  The office buildings next to the CyrusOne data centers in the western suburbs are not filled with people from Aurora. They're filled with commuters.
  - jrflowers 1mo ago
    That’s wild, where do all the people from Aurora work? The data centers? Also what does the specific building or set of buildings you hate in one town have to do with the concept of office buildings
    - tptacek 1mo ago
      I've lost track of what your argument is. Mine is that office buildings are not generally filled with workers from the immediate municipality in which they're situated. We're talking about office buildings because office buildings and data centers are both large-format commercial real estate developments.
      - jrflowers 1mo ago
        >are you saying office buildings bring less to the community because so, so, so many more people work in them than in data centers >Mine is that office buildings are not generally filled with workers from the immediate municipality in which they're situated. Since neither are data centers, which aren’t filled with workers, you could’ve just said “yeah” “Office buildings bring less to communities than data centers because of all the people that work in them” lmao
    - gilthelander 1mo ago
      > That’s wild, where do all the people from Aurora work? Last I checked, Aurora had a large blue-collar Latino population, many of whom are successful tradespeople. These people commute to construction sites elsewhere during the day, and perhaps your own neighborhood, where HN posters snitch to the town if they use a leaf blower within 1500' of their home office.
      - jrflowers 1mo ago
        > These people commute to construction sites elsewhere during the day While it is a shame that tptacek has to see “commuters“ going both ways it is good to know that the people of Aurora have this beautiful park https://www.cyrusone.com/data-centers/north-america/aurora-il https://www.cyrusone.com/data-centers/north-america/aurora-i...
        tptacek 1mo ago
        I don't know what you think this link shows, but you can just jump to CHI1 on Google Maps (or, you know, drive there) to see what that area looks like.
  - lovich 1mo ago
    Do they not eat lunch? Or do any local shopping? The literal foot traffic of office workers was a major reason brought up by cities trying to force companies to RTO post pandemic.
MrDrMcCoy 1mo ago
Office buildings employ considerably more people, support nearby restaurants, consume less power and water, produce virtually no infrasound, and are more attractive than data centers. I'd rather have an office building next to my house than a data center, especially if they would not be providing me colocation services at a steep discount.
- tptacek 1mo ago
  Office buildings are not more attractive than data centers; that's my whole argument. In format, massing, and design, data centers essentially are office buildings, just with drastically less parking. Asphalt is the biggest eyesore in commercial real estate. (Data centers consume immaterial amounts of water.)
  - rtpg 1mo ago
    Drastically less parking, so way less jobs in the local area right? Like maybe the municipality doesn't care because a lot of jobs are filled by people coming in from an hour away, but surely the inverse of "I am sad because <some job source in my area> closed" is "I am happy because <some job source in my area> opened", right? I get what you're saying about the buildings themselves. I just think that, in the abstract and all else being equal (it isn't of course!) "big box for 50 jobs" and "big box for 200 jobs", one seems nicer. Maybe I'm overestimating the job differential. And this is all a bit of a false dichotomy anyways
    - tptacek 1mo ago
      First, no, all these buildings have wildly overprovisioned parking. Most of the lots are empty. I'd encourage people wondering about this to just go drive out to an office complex in a suburb near them and look. Second, no, these jobs are not generally filled by neighbors of the office complexes, or even people from the muni where the office complex is situated. The big box for 50 jobs is also a nicer building to have near you, at least when we're talking about the data centers you find in the western suburbs of Chicago.
watwut 1mo ago
This is not true. Office buildings are non issue and also imply more shops, restaurants, cafes and generally walkable environment.