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Best charging experience and best software experience. Note: I do not want this to be true. Other companies please copy what Tesla has done with both of these.

Best charging experience and best software experience. Note: I do not want this to be true. Other companies please copy what Tesla has done with both of these. You’ve had years to do this and failed.

ezfe 2mo ago
> Best charging experience This isn't accurate - they charge slower and Plug & Charge is common in many vehicles now, including with the Tesla network - whereas Teslas cannot Plug & Charge on other networks.
- brianwawok 2mo ago
  Sure they can, you can buy a CCS adapter. You are limited a bit by 400V, but honestly I have never been able to not find a Tesla charger - and I’ve done 100k miles around the US over the last 5 years
  - ezfe 2mo ago
    Plug & Charge, referring to the ability to Plug in and automatically process payment, is what I am referring to. Tesla cannot Plug & Charge on any non-Tesla network. Whereas other vehicles can Plug & Charge on Tesla networks. Therefor, the advantage is to everyone else. Teslas have poor charging curves and are not cutting edge for charging performance. They are average.
- thebruce87m 2mo ago
  (Up to) 250kW is fine in my Model Y - it’s always charged by the time my family has refreshed on a long trip. Ironically - if it was faster I’d need to go move it in the middle of the bathroom/food stop. In the UK most EVs use the standard CCS2 plug.
nielsbot 2mo ago
(In the US) I switched from Tesla to Rivian. Their approach seems to be “Tesla, but nicer”. They have a similar non-legacy automaker feel. That said while I appreciate their design focus their software still feels not quite as polished as Tesla’s.
- lotsofpulp 2mo ago
  “Tesla, but nicer, and $20k more” Also, while FSD has limitations, I have found it provides enormous utility for older people, and Rivian doesn’t yet have a competing product for FSD.
  - Grombobulous 2mo ago
    The Rivian R2 is not $20k more. It’s $5k more than the deeply stripped down Model Y base model. The R2 base model is not as premium as the higher models but the Model Y base model is really deeply stripped down including some really barebones stuff like removing liner material from the frunk and removing some of the exterior LED lights.
    - lotsofpulp 2mo ago
      Cheapest Model Y is $40k and cheapest R2 is $58k. Cheapest Model 3 is $37k. The vast majority of Teslas sold are in an entirely different market than Rivian, which hasn’t even started delivering R2s yet. So really, the price gap is $40k or more until R2s are actually delivered.
      - Grombobulous 2mo ago
        Look again, cheapest R2 is $44,990. Deliveries haven’t started on that trim but they are less than a year away. You are incorrect when you say that Rivian isn’t delivering R2s. Factually untrue. This claim of a $40k+ price gap is absurd.
        lotsofpulp 2mo ago
        Oh yes, I see that now. Either way, Tesla has a proven product that is cheaper, so if I’m trying to save money, for all intents and purposes, a Tesla is still thousands cheaper with a far longer track record, plus the option of FSD.
        2mo ago
the_gastropod 2mo ago
I'm an admitted Elon hater, so maybe that clouds my judgement. But I rented a Tesla 3 a few years back to try an EV before deciding to buy one. I ultimately went with a Chevy Bolt, and find the Apple Carplay to be far better than Tesla's proprietary system. The only thing I recall that Tesla did better was pre-conditioning the battery before planned charging--something Apple Carplay (at least its current version) lacks the API to handle. As far as charging, I think that was the case even as recently as ~2 years ago. But today, the charging game is pretty decent for CCS cars. You can even charge at Tesla stations using an adapter.
- CrimsonRain 2mo ago
  Calling it clouded is an understatement. Apart from some Chinese cars (xpeng comes to mind), Rivian, bmw new class (but on paper; practically there are too many issues), other cars don't even come close to Teslas.
  - matthewdgreen 2mo ago
    I own a 2018 Model 3 and I love it. Plus it's in good shape with limited maintenance. I'm looking to trade it in. But honestly, I don't want to buy effectively the same car but slightly worse, with no turn signals (the recent M3) or an uglier version (the Model Y.) Historically, upgrading from an eight-year old car to the current version of the same model was a pretty big upgrade. Not with Tesla: I'll either keep this car until the wheels fall off, or I'll buy an R2.
    - CrimsonRain 1mo ago
      You should rent a latest 3/Y for 3 days and then make the decision. The difference between them are subtle but massive. To the point, I will say a good amount of Tesla owners complains about build quality are fully on point. On the other hand, those same people will be pleasantly surprised if they try out ~2025 models. I own both. To an external eye, latest Y just has lightbar and more space. But only when you use it, you notice the QoL improvements. I rarely drive the M3 even though it is the more "fun" car... As for turn signal stalk, it is present in Y. and newer 3 as far as I know.
Grombobulous 2mo ago
Not really true in Europe where charging is properly standardized. “Best software” is subjective as well. Many car owners really don’t care for their software and just want to bypass the infotainment system for CarPlay and Android Auto.
slaw 2mo ago
The best charging experience would be any of 10 BYD models with flash charging. 10% to 70%: 5 minutes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Flash_Charging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Flash_Charging
- coliveira 2mo ago
  Yes, but Americans don't have the freedom to experience this. They have to choose between expensive and more expensive.
  - Panino 2mo ago
    Capitalism With American Characteristics
    - fragmede 2mo ago
      Americanism
- thebruce87m 1mo ago
  Pushing electrons around quickly is only part of the charging experience.
pinkyboy 2mo ago
Charging experience? Teslas can't charge as fast as a modern Kia, Lucid, Geely, or BYD. They can't two-gun charge like a BYD. They don't have battery-swaps like NIO. They've got a single charge port in a back corner... very unclear what's best about them. And as for software, on the infotainment side, AA/CP are great (but not available on Tesla), and people often like having _some_ physical controls, which goes against Musk's aggressive cost-cutting. If by software you mean FSD (Supervised), I think essentially every major auto lane-keeping + adaptive cruise covers the key use case where FSD is useful: highway slogs. For anybody who lives outside of the USA, the Chinese EVs are the obvious answer -- they've surpassed Tesla on essentially every dimension. For people who live inside the USA the math is different, since the government is actively interfering with the free market to protect a critical donor.
- Rohansi 2mo ago
  > Charging experience? They have a very reliable charging network with excellent coverage. You just plug your car in and it charges. No fiddling with the charger or apps. > And as for software, on the infotainment side, AA/CP are great (but not available on Tesla) The infotainment is good enough where you don't need AA/CP but that's a very subjective detail. The software also extends outside of your car because you can do a lot from the Tesla phone app. It's your car key, control/schedule/monitor charging, lets you control climate remotely, use GPS to find your car, dashcam, etc... all are standard with a Tesla but unavailable or locked behind a subscription elsewhere. > If by software you mean FSD (Supervised), I think essentially every major auto lane-keeping + adaptive cruise covers the key use case where FSD is useful: highway slogs. Agree but FSD (Supervised) is actually getting better over time. You 100% need the latest model/hardware car to see those improvements though. Still needs supervision but far less than you may have seen before.
  - pinkyboy 2mo ago
    And you can plug almost any modern EV into the Tesla supercharging network without issue. However, unlike Teslas, you can _also_ plug and charge them in other networks. On self-driving: if you want true autonomy, where you can relax and do something else entirely while you drive, the answers are Waymo, Apollo Go, and to a lesser extent: rideshare. Every other system requires that you sit in the driver's seat, pay attention, and be ready to handle exceptions. Which means that ongoing improvements don't actually buy you much of anything, because having to handle an exception every 50 miles isn't a better experience than having to handle one very 5 miles.

ezfe 2mo ago

> Best charging experience This isn't accurate - they charge slower and Plug & Charge is common in many vehicles now, including with the Tesla network - whereas Teslas cannot Plug & Charge on other networks.

brianwawok 2mo ago
Sure they can, you can buy a CCS adapter. You are limited a bit by 400V, but honestly I have never been able to not find a Tesla charger - and I’ve done 100k miles around the US over the last 5 years
- ezfe 2mo ago
  Plug & Charge, referring to the ability to Plug in and automatically process payment, is what I am referring to. Tesla cannot Plug & Charge on any non-Tesla network. Whereas other vehicles can Plug & Charge on Tesla networks. Therefor, the advantage is to everyone else. Teslas have poor charging curves and are not cutting edge for charging performance. They are average.
thebruce87m 2mo ago
(Up to) 250kW is fine in my Model Y - it’s always charged by the time my family has refreshed on a long trip. Ironically - if it was faster I’d need to go move it in the middle of the bathroom/food stop. In the UK most EVs use the standard CCS2 plug.

nielsbot 2mo ago

(In the US) I switched from Tesla to Rivian. Their approach seems to be “Tesla, but nicer”. They have a similar non-legacy automaker feel. That said while I appreciate their design focus their software still feels not quite as polished as Tesla’s.

lotsofpulp 2mo ago
“Tesla, but nicer, and $20k more” Also, while FSD has limitations, I have found it provides enormous utility for older people, and Rivian doesn’t yet have a competing product for FSD.
- Grombobulous 2mo ago
  The Rivian R2 is not $20k more. It’s $5k more than the deeply stripped down Model Y base model. The R2 base model is not as premium as the higher models but the Model Y base model is really deeply stripped down including some really barebones stuff like removing liner material from the frunk and removing some of the exterior LED lights.
  - lotsofpulp 2mo ago
    Cheapest Model Y is $40k and cheapest R2 is $58k. Cheapest Model 3 is $37k. The vast majority of Teslas sold are in an entirely different market than Rivian, which hasn’t even started delivering R2s yet. So really, the price gap is $40k or more until R2s are actually delivered.
    - Grombobulous 2mo ago
      Look again, cheapest R2 is $44,990. Deliveries haven’t started on that trim but they are less than a year away. You are incorrect when you say that Rivian isn’t delivering R2s. Factually untrue. This claim of a $40k+ price gap is absurd.
      - lotsofpulp 2mo ago
        Oh yes, I see that now. Either way, Tesla has a proven product that is cheaper, so if I’m trying to save money, for all intents and purposes, a Tesla is still thousands cheaper with a far longer track record, plus the option of FSD.
        2mo ago

the_gastropod 2mo ago

I'm an admitted Elon hater, so maybe that clouds my judgement. But I rented a Tesla 3 a few years back to try an EV before deciding to buy one. I ultimately went with a Chevy Bolt, and find the Apple Carplay to be far better than Tesla's proprietary system. The only thing I recall that Tesla did better was pre-conditioning the battery before planned charging--something Apple Carplay (at least its current version) lacks the API to handle. As far as charging, I think that was the case even as recently as ~2 years ago. But today, the charging game is pretty decent for CCS cars. You can even charge at Tesla stations using an adapter.

CrimsonRain 2mo ago
Calling it clouded is an understatement. Apart from some Chinese cars (xpeng comes to mind), Rivian, bmw new class (but on paper; practically there are too many issues), other cars don't even come close to Teslas.
- matthewdgreen 2mo ago
  I own a 2018 Model 3 and I love it. Plus it's in good shape with limited maintenance. I'm looking to trade it in. But honestly, I don't want to buy effectively the same car but slightly worse, with no turn signals (the recent M3) or an uglier version (the Model Y.) Historically, upgrading from an eight-year old car to the current version of the same model was a pretty big upgrade. Not with Tesla: I'll either keep this car until the wheels fall off, or I'll buy an R2.
  - CrimsonRain 1mo ago
    You should rent a latest 3/Y for 3 days and then make the decision. The difference between them are subtle but massive. To the point, I will say a good amount of Tesla owners complains about build quality are fully on point. On the other hand, those same people will be pleasantly surprised if they try out ~2025 models. I own both. To an external eye, latest Y just has lightbar and more space. But only when you use it, you notice the QoL improvements. I rarely drive the M3 even though it is the more "fun" car... As for turn signal stalk, it is present in Y. and newer 3 as far as I know.

Grombobulous 2mo ago

Not really true in Europe where charging is properly standardized. “Best software” is subjective as well. Many car owners really don’t care for their software and just want to bypass the infotainment system for CarPlay and Android Auto.

slaw 2mo ago

The best charging experience would be any of 10 BYD models with flash charging. 10% to 70%: 5 minutes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Flash_Charging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Flash_Charging

coliveira 2mo ago
Yes, but Americans don't have the freedom to experience this. They have to choose between expensive and more expensive.
- Panino 2mo ago
  Capitalism With American Characteristics
  - fragmede 2mo ago
    Americanism
thebruce87m 1mo ago
Pushing electrons around quickly is only part of the charging experience.

pinkyboy 2mo ago

Charging experience? Teslas can't charge as fast as a modern Kia, Lucid, Geely, or BYD. They can't two-gun charge like a BYD. They don't have battery-swaps like NIO. They've got a single charge port in a back corner... very unclear what's best about them. And as for software, on the infotainment side, AA/CP are great (but not available on Tesla), and people often like having _some_ physical controls, which goes against Musk's aggressive cost-cutting. If by software you mean FSD (Supervised), I think essentially every major auto lane-keeping + adaptive cruise covers the key use case where FSD is useful: highway slogs. For anybody who lives outside of the USA, the Chinese EVs are the obvious answer -- they've surpassed Tesla on essentially every dimension. For people who live inside the USA the math is different, since the government is actively interfering with the free market to protect a critical donor.

Rohansi 2mo ago
> Charging experience? They have a very reliable charging network with excellent coverage. You just plug your car in and it charges. No fiddling with the charger or apps. > And as for software, on the infotainment side, AA/CP are great (but not available on Tesla) The infotainment is good enough where you don't need AA/CP but that's a very subjective detail. The software also extends outside of your car because you can do a lot from the Tesla phone app. It's your car key, control/schedule/monitor charging, lets you control climate remotely, use GPS to find your car, dashcam, etc... all are standard with a Tesla but unavailable or locked behind a subscription elsewhere. > If by software you mean FSD (Supervised), I think essentially every major auto lane-keeping + adaptive cruise covers the key use case where FSD is useful: highway slogs. Agree but FSD (Supervised) is actually getting better over time. You 100% need the latest model/hardware car to see those improvements though. Still needs supervision but far less than you may have seen before.
- pinkyboy 2mo ago
  And you can plug almost any modern EV into the Tesla supercharging network without issue. However, unlike Teslas, you can _also_ plug and charge them in other networks. On self-driving: if you want true autonomy, where you can relax and do something else entirely while you drive, the answers are Waymo, Apollo Go, and to a lesser extent: rideshare. Every other system requires that you sit in the driver's seat, pay attention, and be ready to handle exceptions. Which means that ongoing improvements don't actually buy you much of anything, because having to handle an exception every 50 miles isn't a better experience than having to handle one very 5 miles.