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Wero is such a valuable asset for Europe and couldn't have come at a better time. It's built on the excellent SEPA system, which standardized bank transfers an

Wero is such a valuable asset for Europe and couldn't have come at a better time. It's built on the excellent SEPA system, which standardized bank transfers and "Lastschrift" in Europe. SEPA itself got a huge upgrade last year with mandatory instant transfers that cannot cost more than standard transfers between European checking accounts. Both of those allowed Wero to happen as a final abstract top layer, meaning: the UX of sending money to an email address with the security and convenience of bank transfers. And everything is built collaboratively on top of European banking infrastructure. No account necessary and no private american conglomerates can delete that account. And before some says: "Well, now the government controls everything!": They already did, since... Ever. Now its one less entity with that access and one that can be (hopefully) controlled and changed by a majority.

retired 2mo ago
I frequently run into failed SEPA transfers. At least three per month out of ~200. So it could use some more stability for my use case. In all fairness, I also have a couple of VISA payments that fail every month.
microtonal 2mo ago
Note that Wero is amongs others based on the Dutch iDEAL [1] system, which was introduced 21 years ago. Virtually every Dutch web shop supports iDEAL (and many only support iDEAL) as well as international payment services such as PayPal and Stripe. As a result, the vast majority of transactions of Dutch webshops go through iDEAL. It is really a super-nice frictionless system. iDEAL also supports P2P payments through Tikkie (ABN AMRO) or the payment request option of other banks. You basically show a QR code or send a link and the person paying goes through the iDEAL flow to transfer the money. Tikkie (and the other bank's similar and compatible systems) have been one of the primary methods for P2P transfers for many years now. I am really happy that we are getting the same system across multiple countries now. Contactless payments through Wero are also planned, so that we can finally become independent of Google/Apple Pay for contactless payments using a phone. [1] EPI purchased the Dutch iDEAL and Belgian Payconiq and mentioned on multiple occasions that Wero is based on the foundations of iDEAL. They kept iDEAL running as a separate system in order not to disturb it during the upbringing of Wero, but iDeal is going to migrated to Wero the coming period.
- haagch 2mo ago
  It's not the same system. iDEAL supports banks to implement payment in their online banking websites, while Wero is Google/Apple ecosystem exclusive.
  - dewey 2mo ago
    > while Wero is Google/Apple ecosystem exclusive It's barely launched in more than 5 EU countries. It's not part of the specs or requirements to only be available in the Google / Apple ecosystem.
    - peter_stokes 2mo ago
      > It's not part of the specs or requirements to only be available in the Google / Apple ecosystem. but at the moment, it is. so he's right to be nervous. from one american duopoly to another. but i share your optimism that they eventually allow this to work without them.
      - dewey 2mo ago
        The commenter is stating that as a fact, which is spreading information that's not true to others reading that. Perfect is the enemy of good as always. Having a system that is currently available on the two biggest mobile platforms for the launch (Covering probably 99.9% of consumers) is already much better than piping every single transaction through two US mega corps.
        haagch 2mo ago
        Replies from the German GLS bank on mastodon imply that EPI does not support the use case where banks add it to their web interface https://ruhr.social/@glsbank/116215341782832097 https://ruhr.social/@glsbank/116215341782832097 https://ruhr.social/@glsbank/116125936995037426 https://ruhr.social/@glsbank/116125936995037426 > Good morning, it's not "our" fault. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about it—Wero is a service offered by EPI, and they've decided to take a "mobile-first" approach for now. Warm regards from Bochum! As for the prospects of ever seeing banking apps outside of android/ios, there is only https://www.das-parlament.de/wirtschaft/finanzen/wir-bauen-mit-wero-ein-paneuropaeisches-zahlverfahren https://www.das-parlament.de/wirtschaft/finanzen/wir-bauen-m... > What about smartphones that run on free and open-source software instead of the commercial operating systems used by the iPhone or Google? > Tanja Müller-Ziegler: This market is still very much a niche one. There are still too few providers, which is why it’s hardly worth offering banking apps for these devices. > Perfect is the enemy of good as always. I'm no expert on iDEAL, but being 20 years old, it's older than Android and iOS and presumably supported web based payments from the very beginning. I really don't understand why nowadays people seem to think that app exclusivity is somehow a natural starting point. It's a relatively recent invention.
haagch 2mo ago
> No account necessary and no private american conglomerates can delete that account. Officially you need a Google or Apple account to download a wero capable app from their stores, and Google and Apple can always delete all wero capable apps from their stores like for example with Russian sanctioned banks. Some banking apps work on non - google play controlled android smartphones, but always only accidentally. Some banks like for example Consorbank already crack down on "sideloading" their app at all: https://www.reddit.com/r/Consorsbank/comments/1p909w1/comment/nrv0ni6/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Consorsbank/comments/1p909w1/commen...
- anticrymactic 2mo ago
  While researching Wero initially, I was confused too that no APK is offered. Maybe we can change that.grbn
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
- microtonal 2mo ago
  If Wero is going to be similar to iDEAL, which it is based on, the payment flow will be through your bank's app. Heck, even the Wero app description says so: The Wero app is available only for account holders from the German bank Postbank and the French bank La Banque Postale. Are you a customer of another Wero-enabled bank? If so, you can easily use Wero within your banking app. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.epicompany.wero.wallet https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.epicompany.... I have seen quite some people downloading their banking apps through the Aurora store (admittedly, it's a frontend for the Play Store, but you don't need an account or the app). Or you can use something like APKMirror and verify that they have the correct signing keys. Of course, if they need Play Services or Play Integrity basic, then you need sandboxed Google Play or microG. If your bank does remote attestation through Play Integrity, then it is game over, but it is worth contacting your bank. E.g. some banks have added the GrapheneOS signing keys and added support for AOSP remote attestation.
  - 2mo ago
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
altern8 2mo ago
> instant transfers that cannot cost more than standard transfers Interesting, I didn't know that. Now, why would anyone want to do a non-instant transfer, then (short of not knowing about it like in my case)? Doesn't this mandate basically make all transfers instant?
- pimterry 2mo ago
  They are allowed to set caps, I've seen them down to around €5000 per transaction so it's not literally all transfers. Still free to transfer above, just takes more than a few seconds to do so, presumably for fraud/theft protection. Some banks will make that a daily limit, or configurable, there's some flexibility but they're mandated to justify all limits with no arbitrary discrimination against instant transfers. In practice, obviously most personal payments are well under that margin, so within-EU bank transfers are defacto instant everywhere. Most banking apps I've seen don't even show an 'instant/slow' option any more, it's just all instant.
- pta2002 2mo ago
  A lot of banks won’t even give you the option of a non-instant transfer now, at least here in Portugal. Though non-instant transfers can in theory be recalled since there is some time before the money gets to the destination account, my bank even gives a warning now when doing a transfer to ensure I have the details right because they can not recall a transaction after the money arrives.
- anticrymactic 2mo ago
  My bank sets the default to "Standard (1-3 Days). Many forget to click the checkbox. I have also heard: "I only do instant when I need it" implying some implicit cost/limit they fear. This is probably still worth it for Banks. As not _all_ transfers are now the dreadful super expensive instant variety.
  - bluebarbet 2mo ago
    It's a dark pattern, my bank does it too. Reminiscent of online stores that put the price-sorting option "High > Low" before "Low > High", as if literally anybody would ever want to do the former. This is a heuristic I use to judge trustworthiness. Decathlon doesn't do it.
ekjhgkejhgk 2mo ago
> the UX of sending money to an email address > No account necessary and no private american conglomerates can delete that account. Who owns domain names (which emails require)? No, don't say people do, people don't own domain names, they lease them, and it's not a right either.
- echoangle 2mo ago
  You can get the domains from your local European nations registrar though. How is the American conglomerate going to prevent that?
t-sauer 2mo ago
But now every bank needs to support and implement it separately. My bank doesn't so far which is annoying.
TRiG_Ireland 2mo ago
My bank (BOFIIE2D) now gives me the option of instant or standard payments. Both cost the same. And in both cases the money leaves my account instantly. I can just choose whether it arrives at the recipient instantly or after a few days. I have no idea why standard is still an option. Why would I want that?
- paperpunk 2mo ago
  Most likely answer is just that BOE doesn’t have a strong product design culture. But there is another reason why some may prefer standard: due to the instant payment rules banks are not able to hold inbound payments for screening so if a payment trips a flip that requires screening then it will be rejected. Other payment rails will typically result in the payment being held for a manual review where it will be released shortly later. Instant payments will be rejected if not crediting the recipient in a few seconds. As this disproportionately affects people with names in common with sanctions lists, to send money to/from those people sometimes a standard transfer is the only option.
  - TRiG_Ireland 2mo ago
    That makes sense, then. It is actually a useful feature (especially when you're not sure on the spelling of someone's name, etc.).
selfhoster1312 2mo ago
So i'm not a fan of banking / money in general, but i'm surprised to such a rose-tainted comment upvoted so high. The real european alternative is the research project Taler https://taler.net https://taler.net , wero looks like another attempt at big tech to capture the market and force you into android/iphone hell.
stefantalpalaru 2mo ago
[dead]
lrasinen 2mo ago
"valuable asset for Europe", and it's available in 5 countries. Yay. We already have a bunch of local non-interoperable systems, so what's one more?

retired 2mo ago

I frequently run into failed SEPA transfers. At least three per month out of ~200. So it could use some more stability for my use case. In all fairness, I also have a couple of VISA payments that fail every month.

microtonal 2mo ago

Note that Wero is amongs others based on the Dutch iDEAL [1] system, which was introduced 21 years ago. Virtually every Dutch web shop supports iDEAL (and many only support iDEAL) as well as international payment services such as PayPal and Stripe. As a result, the vast majority of transactions of Dutch webshops go through iDEAL. It is really a super-nice frictionless system. iDEAL also supports P2P payments through Tikkie (ABN AMRO) or the payment request option of other banks. You basically show a QR code or send a link and the person paying goes through the iDEAL flow to transfer the money. Tikkie (and the other bank's similar and compatible systems) have been one of the primary methods for P2P transfers for many years now. I am really happy that we are getting the same system across multiple countries now. Contactless payments through Wero are also planned, so that we can finally become independent of Google/Apple Pay for contactless payments using a phone. [1] EPI purchased the Dutch iDEAL and Belgian Payconiq and mentioned on multiple occasions that Wero is based on the foundations of iDEAL. They kept iDEAL running as a separate system in order not to disturb it during the upbringing of Wero, but iDeal is going to migrated to Wero the coming period.

haagch 2mo ago
It's not the same system. iDEAL supports banks to implement payment in their online banking websites, while Wero is Google/Apple ecosystem exclusive.
- dewey 2mo ago
  > while Wero is Google/Apple ecosystem exclusive It's barely launched in more than 5 EU countries. It's not part of the specs or requirements to only be available in the Google / Apple ecosystem.
  - peter_stokes 2mo ago
    > It's not part of the specs or requirements to only be available in the Google / Apple ecosystem. but at the moment, it is. so he's right to be nervous. from one american duopoly to another. but i share your optimism that they eventually allow this to work without them.
    - dewey 2mo ago
      The commenter is stating that as a fact, which is spreading information that's not true to others reading that. Perfect is the enemy of good as always. Having a system that is currently available on the two biggest mobile platforms for the launch (Covering probably 99.9% of consumers) is already much better than piping every single transaction through two US mega corps.
      - haagch 2mo ago
        Replies from the German GLS bank on mastodon imply that EPI does not support the use case where banks add it to their web interface https://ruhr.social/@glsbank/116215341782832097 https://ruhr.social/@glsbank/116215341782832097 https://ruhr.social/@glsbank/116125936995037426 https://ruhr.social/@glsbank/116125936995037426 > Good morning, it's not "our" fault. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about it—Wero is a service offered by EPI, and they've decided to take a "mobile-first" approach for now. Warm regards from Bochum! As for the prospects of ever seeing banking apps outside of android/ios, there is only https://www.das-parlament.de/wirtschaft/finanzen/wir-bauen-mit-wero-ein-paneuropaeisches-zahlverfahren https://www.das-parlament.de/wirtschaft/finanzen/wir-bauen-m... > What about smartphones that run on free and open-source software instead of the commercial operating systems used by the iPhone or Google? > Tanja Müller-Ziegler: This market is still very much a niche one. There are still too few providers, which is why it’s hardly worth offering banking apps for these devices. > Perfect is the enemy of good as always. I'm no expert on iDEAL, but being 20 years old, it's older than Android and iOS and presumably supported web based payments from the very beginning. I really don't understand why nowadays people seem to think that app exclusivity is somehow a natural starting point. It's a relatively recent invention.

haagch 2mo ago

> No account necessary and no private american conglomerates can delete that account. Officially you need a Google or Apple account to download a wero capable app from their stores, and Google and Apple can always delete all wero capable apps from their stores like for example with Russian sanctioned banks. Some banking apps work on non - google play controlled android smartphones, but always only accidentally. Some banks like for example Consorbank already crack down on "sideloading" their app at all: https://www.reddit.com/r/Consorsbank/comments/1p909w1/comment/nrv0ni6/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Consorsbank/comments/1p909w1/commen...

anticrymactic 2mo ago
While researching Wero initially, I was confused too that no APK is offered. Maybe we can change that.grbn
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
microtonal 2mo ago
If Wero is going to be similar to iDEAL, which it is based on, the payment flow will be through your bank's app. Heck, even the Wero app description says so: The Wero app is available only for account holders from the German bank Postbank and the French bank La Banque Postale. Are you a customer of another Wero-enabled bank? If so, you can easily use Wero within your banking app. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.epicompany.wero.wallet https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.epicompany.... I have seen quite some people downloading their banking apps through the Aurora store (admittedly, it's a frontend for the Play Store, but you don't need an account or the app). Or you can use something like APKMirror and verify that they have the correct signing keys. Of course, if they need Play Services or Play Integrity basic, then you need sandboxed Google Play or microG. If your bank does remote attestation through Play Integrity, then it is game over, but it is worth contacting your bank. E.g. some banks have added the GrapheneOS signing keys and added support for AOSP remote attestation.
- 2mo ago

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

altern8 2mo ago

> instant transfers that cannot cost more than standard transfers Interesting, I didn't know that. Now, why would anyone want to do a non-instant transfer, then (short of not knowing about it like in my case)? Doesn't this mandate basically make all transfers instant?

pimterry 2mo ago
They are allowed to set caps, I've seen them down to around €5000 per transaction so it's not literally all transfers. Still free to transfer above, just takes more than a few seconds to do so, presumably for fraud/theft protection. Some banks will make that a daily limit, or configurable, there's some flexibility but they're mandated to justify all limits with no arbitrary discrimination against instant transfers. In practice, obviously most personal payments are well under that margin, so within-EU bank transfers are defacto instant everywhere. Most banking apps I've seen don't even show an 'instant/slow' option any more, it's just all instant.
pta2002 2mo ago
A lot of banks won’t even give you the option of a non-instant transfer now, at least here in Portugal. Though non-instant transfers can in theory be recalled since there is some time before the money gets to the destination account, my bank even gives a warning now when doing a transfer to ensure I have the details right because they can not recall a transaction after the money arrives.
anticrymactic 2mo ago
My bank sets the default to "Standard (1-3 Days). Many forget to click the checkbox. I have also heard: "I only do instant when I need it" implying some implicit cost/limit they fear. This is probably still worth it for Banks. As not _all_ transfers are now the dreadful super expensive instant variety.
- bluebarbet 2mo ago
  It's a dark pattern, my bank does it too. Reminiscent of online stores that put the price-sorting option "High > Low" before "Low > High", as if literally anybody would ever want to do the former. This is a heuristic I use to judge trustworthiness. Decathlon doesn't do it.

ekjhgkejhgk 2mo ago

> the UX of sending money to an email address > No account necessary and no private american conglomerates can delete that account. Who owns domain names (which emails require)? No, don't say people do, people don't own domain names, they lease them, and it's not a right either.

echoangle 2mo ago
You can get the domains from your local European nations registrar though. How is the American conglomerate going to prevent that?

t-sauer 2mo ago

But now every bank needs to support and implement it separately. My bank doesn't so far which is annoying.

TRiG_Ireland 2mo ago

My bank (BOFIIE2D) now gives me the option of instant or standard payments. Both cost the same. And in both cases the money leaves my account instantly. I can just choose whether it arrives at the recipient instantly or after a few days. I have no idea why standard is still an option. Why would I want that?

paperpunk 2mo ago
Most likely answer is just that BOE doesn’t have a strong product design culture. But there is another reason why some may prefer standard: due to the instant payment rules banks are not able to hold inbound payments for screening so if a payment trips a flip that requires screening then it will be rejected. Other payment rails will typically result in the payment being held for a manual review where it will be released shortly later. Instant payments will be rejected if not crediting the recipient in a few seconds. As this disproportionately affects people with names in common with sanctions lists, to send money to/from those people sometimes a standard transfer is the only option.
- TRiG_Ireland 2mo ago
  That makes sense, then. It is actually a useful feature (especially when you're not sure on the spelling of someone's name, etc.).

selfhoster1312 2mo ago

So i'm not a fan of banking / money in general, but i'm surprised to such a rose-tainted comment upvoted so high. The real european alternative is the research project Taler https://taler.net https://taler.net , wero looks like another attempt at big tech to capture the market and force you into android/iphone hell.

stefantalpalaru 2mo ago

[dead]

lrasinen 2mo ago

"valuable asset for Europe", and it's available in 5 countries. Yay. We already have a bunch of local non-interoperable systems, so what's one more?