8 ms·

This happened in a 50k people town where my father is from in 1982 with a BIG flood that destroyed the town land registry documents (among a lot of the town). S

This happened in a 50k people town where my father is from in 1982 with a BIG flood that destroyed the town land registry documents (among a lot of the town). Since he's a lawyer, had first hand experience and I was always curious I asked many things about this a while back. Basically, what happened is that they rebuilt it from proof of ownership and testimonies of the people. You can never get to 100% recovery like that, but everyone knows who their neighbor is, at least in a town that is small like this. So they rebuilt it first from first hand proof, then by testimonies, with a period of counter claims available IIRC. For sure there were some false claims, but given the magnitude of the disaster, this is the best solution within that context.

bombcar 2mo ago
This is where "possession is 9/10ths of the law" comes from.
- franciscop 2mo ago
  I actually think our discussion came from there! Or at least, there was a previous/later discussion about this exactly related to that.
  - bombcar 2mo ago
    It's one of those "programmer misconceptions" - we want to make reality fit our neat and tidy list of rules/laws/code; but it's the other way around most of the time.
kefabean 2mo ago
I always wonder how things would be reconciled if something similar happened to a bank. What would be the simplest way to ‘download’ one’s balance whilst proving that the downloaded files were signed by the bank?
- superb_dev 2mo ago
  Your best chance would probably be mailed statements
- amarant 2mo ago
  I'm good with starting from 0 if the bank is (my mortgage is a lot bigger than my balance)
  - iso1631 2mo ago
    Sods law would be the only bank not affected would be those I owe money to
- xyzelement 2mo ago
  Your balance is at a bank. If the bank is gone your balance at it doesn't matter.
timcobb 2mo ago
And this is why we need title insurance :(
SteveGerencser 2mo ago
Not saying that this is the only reason, but it is a big reason why we have a land survey of our property on hand on paper and stored online. If something ever happened to the registry, we could at least establish our claim to our land.
- markdown 2mo ago
  Don't you have a land title, which of course is more evidence than a survey which anyone can pay for and get?
  - dghlsakjg 2mo ago
    The title proves ownership (kinda), but does not define the outline of the property itself. If the you need to know if the fence is on your property or the neighbor’s, a title or deed won’t help you find that line. So if the official survey is lost and you need to know where the land you own is, you will need a survey.
    - singleshot_ 2mo ago
      Recorded deed will more or less universally contain a legal description of the land. This does, in fact, defined the illegal outline of the parcel. A survey is little more than marching out into the field and putting at the location where you believe the boundaries to be based on your review of the legal description. Of course that’s not the end of the discussion as to boundaries for reasons like adverse possession or busted titles but on his own a surveyor is going to tell you basically nothing.
      - dghlsakjg 2mo ago
        Very place dependent and not so universal in my experience. Where I live the title/deed just has street address. A completely separate agency holds the plot map that links addresses to physical measurements.
        2mo ago
curioussam 2mo ago
[flagged]
danielam 2mo ago
There is little alternative. A great-great grandfather of mine was mayor of a town through which the front passed twice during WWI. All that survived were basements. Your father's account more or less describes the process by which the land was reparceled.
alexpotato 2mo ago
> Basically, what happened is that they rebuilt it from proof of ownership and testimonies of the people In a similar vein, I was once curious how you would prove your identity if ALL of your relevant documents (passport, driver's license, birth certificate etc) were lost in some kind of cataclysm e.g. a house fire pre-digital etc Turns out there is actually a mechanism for this: - get multiple people to sign sworn affidavits that you are who you say you are - that begins the "paper trail" of evidence that allows you to start getting the rest of the document chain - you rebuild from there. If you're married, there is already a similar process for when a spouse takes the last name of the other spouse. The marriage certificate is the first step and then it goes from there for driver's license, passport, credit cards and so on.
- giancarlostoro 2mo ago
  Fun fact, if you're unlucky enough to replace your Social Security card 10 times, they will no longer issue them to you anymore. It is a lifetime limit, and they fan it out to 3 per year. Oddly enough, if you legally change your name, they will send you a new one regardless of the limit.
  - Tangurena2 2mo ago
    Afterwards, you have to make an appointment to see them in person. Until then, you can order them online or via snailmail.
  - ButlerianJihad 2mo ago
    The circumstances in which you actually need to physically present your Social Security card are quite rare indeed. In fact, that is the first thing I was told by the ssa dot gov site, when I applied to receive a new card. It is very unlikely that you will be asked, even by a prospective employer, for your actual card, because let's face it: it doesn't even have a photo, or anything but that unique number on it. Anyone trying to authenticate your number should be satisfied if you can give them the correct number. And just for review: SSNs are not a "national ID" and you're typically not required to divulge it to private parties, and they can make up some other unique ID for you in their database. It's usually just a shortcut for them to do a background or credit check on you. And that's not something for which they would need your physical card. That being said, I've replaced my card about 3 times now, and it was comparatively difficult this time around. The first time, I did it all through the mail (the process of building up from no ID to get birth certificate from out-of-state, to the SSA card, to the in-state driver license.) and the second time it arrived by mail, no hassle. But this time around, even though I applied online, I was directed to make an appointment at the field office and physically walk in there, to prove my humanity. I had never been to an SSA Field Office in my life! The experience was very chill, and there were a dozen windows serving people, while about 4 of us waited in the lobby, and I was in-and-out half an hour early. The civil servant was a lady in good spirits who was a military veteran. Big props to them!
SoftTalker 2mo ago
There are also physical markers in the ground at the corners of most properties. So if you had to, you could send a surveyor out to recertify boundaries. That would get very expensive quickly, however.
- judemelancon 2mo ago
  This is not true anywhere I've lived, and I'm curious where it is true.
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - SoftTalker 2mo ago
    It's usually a piece of steel rebar/round stock or pipe, maybe with a yellow plastic cap, or maybe not. Usually buried or not very visible, I'd guess the surveyors find them with a metal detector.
  - bluGill 2mo ago
    Most of the us has it like that. Some of the early states still do 'nw to the stump', a stump that rotted away before 1800... The newer states learned that lesson and land is to something more likely to last and hard to move. Metal stakes are most common. Though most people are not aware of the stake since there is no reason to look for it.
    - pixl97 2mo ago
      They are commonly found by lawn mowers after some erosion.
  - zrobotics 2mo ago
    I'm not aware of corner markers being the standard, at least in the central and western US. For rural and undeveloped land, oftentimes you can pay the surveyor extra to put up corner markers though, which is a good investment if you plan on fencing the property
londons_explore 2mo ago
Wouldn't work in a city like NYC where nobody knows their neighbours and a chunk of houses are empty and only owned by shady shell companies as investments...
- kijin 2mo ago
  Shady shell companies do an excellent job of proving ownership -- it's the only reason they exist! So if NYC is hit by an asteroid, you'll find backups of all the important papers neatly filed away in Delaware.
markdown 2mo ago
In my country, titles are always issued in duplicate. The land registry gets one of these originals, and the landowner the other. Just about every landowner has their original on their person, or held by a bank if it's mortgaged. So all is not lost if the registry goes up in flames.
pseudohadamard 2mo ago
Happened here about 30 years ago with a fire in a council planning office. All building plans and records were lost. It was enormously useful because there was no way to prove that that house addition there wasn't approved or in any plans. Fans of Yes Minister will know the appropriate quote from Sir Humphrey.
fakedang 2mo ago
Definitely only works in high trust societies. Heck, even in normal times in India there's a rampant land mafia of which many politicians are a part. Forged provenance, illegal squatting and forced seizure, extraction and evictions are the norm.

bombcar 2mo ago

This is where "possession is 9/10ths of the law" comes from.

franciscop 2mo ago
I actually think our discussion came from there! Or at least, there was a previous/later discussion about this exactly related to that.
- bombcar 2mo ago
  It's one of those "programmer misconceptions" - we want to make reality fit our neat and tidy list of rules/laws/code; but it's the other way around most of the time.

kefabean 2mo ago

I always wonder how things would be reconciled if something similar happened to a bank. What would be the simplest way to ‘download’ one’s balance whilst proving that the downloaded files were signed by the bank?

superb_dev 2mo ago
Your best chance would probably be mailed statements
amarant 2mo ago
I'm good with starting from 0 if the bank is (my mortgage is a lot bigger than my balance)
- iso1631 2mo ago
  Sods law would be the only bank not affected would be those I owe money to
xyzelement 2mo ago
Your balance is at a bank. If the bank is gone your balance at it doesn't matter.

timcobb 2mo ago

And this is why we need title insurance :(

SteveGerencser 2mo ago

Not saying that this is the only reason, but it is a big reason why we have a land survey of our property on hand on paper and stored online. If something ever happened to the registry, we could at least establish our claim to our land.

markdown 2mo ago
Don't you have a land title, which of course is more evidence than a survey which anyone can pay for and get?
- dghlsakjg 2mo ago
  The title proves ownership (kinda), but does not define the outline of the property itself. If the you need to know if the fence is on your property or the neighbor’s, a title or deed won’t help you find that line. So if the official survey is lost and you need to know where the land you own is, you will need a survey.
  - singleshot_ 2mo ago
    Recorded deed will more or less universally contain a legal description of the land. This does, in fact, defined the illegal outline of the parcel. A survey is little more than marching out into the field and putting at the location where you believe the boundaries to be based on your review of the legal description. Of course that’s not the end of the discussion as to boundaries for reasons like adverse possession or busted titles but on his own a surveyor is going to tell you basically nothing.
    - dghlsakjg 2mo ago
      Very place dependent and not so universal in my experience. Where I live the title/deed just has street address. A completely separate agency holds the plot map that links addresses to physical measurements.
      - 2mo ago

curioussam 2mo ago

[flagged]

danielam 2mo ago

There is little alternative. A great-great grandfather of mine was mayor of a town through which the front passed twice during WWI. All that survived were basements. Your father's account more or less describes the process by which the land was reparceled.

alexpotato 2mo ago

> Basically, what happened is that they rebuilt it from proof of ownership and testimonies of the people In a similar vein, I was once curious how you would prove your identity if ALL of your relevant documents (passport, driver's license, birth certificate etc) were lost in some kind of cataclysm e.g. a house fire pre-digital etc Turns out there is actually a mechanism for this: - get multiple people to sign sworn affidavits that you are who you say you are - that begins the "paper trail" of evidence that allows you to start getting the rest of the document chain - you rebuild from there. If you're married, there is already a similar process for when a spouse takes the last name of the other spouse. The marriage certificate is the first step and then it goes from there for driver's license, passport, credit cards and so on.

giancarlostoro 2mo ago
Fun fact, if you're unlucky enough to replace your Social Security card 10 times, they will no longer issue them to you anymore. It is a lifetime limit, and they fan it out to 3 per year. Oddly enough, if you legally change your name, they will send you a new one regardless of the limit.
- Tangurena2 2mo ago
  Afterwards, you have to make an appointment to see them in person. Until then, you can order them online or via snailmail.
- ButlerianJihad 2mo ago
  The circumstances in which you actually need to physically present your Social Security card are quite rare indeed. In fact, that is the first thing I was told by the ssa dot gov site, when I applied to receive a new card. It is very unlikely that you will be asked, even by a prospective employer, for your actual card, because let's face it: it doesn't even have a photo, or anything but that unique number on it. Anyone trying to authenticate your number should be satisfied if you can give them the correct number. And just for review: SSNs are not a "national ID" and you're typically not required to divulge it to private parties, and they can make up some other unique ID for you in their database. It's usually just a shortcut for them to do a background or credit check on you. And that's not something for which they would need your physical card. That being said, I've replaced my card about 3 times now, and it was comparatively difficult this time around. The first time, I did it all through the mail (the process of building up from no ID to get birth certificate from out-of-state, to the SSA card, to the in-state driver license.) and the second time it arrived by mail, no hassle. But this time around, even though I applied online, I was directed to make an appointment at the field office and physically walk in there, to prove my humanity. I had never been to an SSA Field Office in my life! The experience was very chill, and there were a dozen windows serving people, while about 4 of us waited in the lobby, and I was in-and-out half an hour early. The civil servant was a lady in good spirits who was a military veteran. Big props to them!

SoftTalker 2mo ago

There are also physical markers in the ground at the corners of most properties. So if you had to, you could send a surveyor out to recertify boundaries. That would get very expensive quickly, however.

judemelancon 2mo ago
This is not true anywhere I've lived, and I'm curious where it is true.
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- SoftTalker 2mo ago
  It's usually a piece of steel rebar/round stock or pipe, maybe with a yellow plastic cap, or maybe not. Usually buried or not very visible, I'd guess the surveyors find them with a metal detector.
- bluGill 2mo ago
  Most of the us has it like that. Some of the early states still do 'nw to the stump', a stump that rotted away before 1800... The newer states learned that lesson and land is to something more likely to last and hard to move. Metal stakes are most common. Though most people are not aware of the stake since there is no reason to look for it.
  - pixl97 2mo ago
    They are commonly found by lawn mowers after some erosion.
- zrobotics 2mo ago
  I'm not aware of corner markers being the standard, at least in the central and western US. For rural and undeveloped land, oftentimes you can pay the surveyor extra to put up corner markers though, which is a good investment if you plan on fencing the property

londons_explore 2mo ago

Wouldn't work in a city like NYC where nobody knows their neighbours and a chunk of houses are empty and only owned by shady shell companies as investments...

kijin 2mo ago
Shady shell companies do an excellent job of proving ownership -- it's the only reason they exist! So if NYC is hit by an asteroid, you'll find backups of all the important papers neatly filed away in Delaware.

markdown 2mo ago

In my country, titles are always issued in duplicate. The land registry gets one of these originals, and the landowner the other. Just about every landowner has their original on their person, or held by a bank if it's mortgaged. So all is not lost if the registry goes up in flames.

pseudohadamard 2mo ago

Happened here about 30 years ago with a fire in a council planning office. All building plans and records were lost. It was enormously useful because there was no way to prove that that house addition there wasn't approved or in any plans. Fans of Yes Minister will know the appropriate quote from Sir Humphrey.

fakedang 2mo ago

Definitely only works in high trust societies. Heck, even in normal times in India there's a rampant land mafia of which many politicians are a part. Forged provenance, illegal squatting and forced seizure, extraction and evictions are the norm.