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You can make this same argument about a great number of things. Why is steel any more critical than food or vaccines or the like? Indeed we got caught short o
by 0x3f 2mo ago
You can make this same argument about a great number of things. Why is steel any more critical than food or vaccines or the like? Indeed we got caught short of vaccines recently, and had some nontrivial consideration of running a military op against NATO member over it.
- Deukhoofd 2mo agoFood tends to be a lot easier to produce, and many countries do often subsidize their food production, as well as have mercantilistic policies to ensure food production is kept locally. Vaccines is a more interesting one, and would be something that might indeed be of interest to a nation. On the other hand I don't think many governments are that concerned about another pandemic, sometimes the discourse regarding it very much sounds like "what are the odds it'll happen again"
- 0x3f 2mo agoI don't really care for farm subsidies either, but even ignoring that: it's quite a different level of intervention than compulsory purchase. Same with the vaccines. We didn't respond to that crisis by nationalizing AstraZeneca. My rhetorical point is just that steel gets special treatment probably because it's politically expedient. There are large, politically-relevant parts of the country that are still emotionally tied to the idea that we're an industrial nation. People under the age of 30 still go on about Thatcher and the miners. There's no real shortage of steel around the world that I know of. We could just stockpile it instead, for example. And in the hypothetical tail-risk scenario this is all supposed to insure against... how do we even get the raw materials for making steel anyway?
- ben_w 2mo ago> There's no real shortage of steel around the world that I know of. We could just stockpile it instead, for example. And in the hypothetical tail-risk scenario this is all supposed to insure against... how do we even get the raw materials for making steel anyway? The more I learn about steel, the more I realise it's not one single thing but a whole collection of different families of things, each with different tradeoffs. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-strength_low-alloy_steel#Classifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-strength_low-alloy_steel#...
- vablings 2mo agoOne big thing about steel is actually traceability, certain industries require very specific steels. One example that always comes to mind is Sheffield Forgemaster's who are one of the few places in the world that can make absolutely gargantuan sized castings for nuclear reactors and marine equipment
- XorNot 2mo agoVaccines aren't something you need urgently in a crisis. A wartime effort has to keep supplies moving daily, or the front collapses. Whereas the need for vaccines is heavily deferred - your population is already vaccinated in peacetime, and you are unlikely to need to make a novel vaccine over the course of a war, nor vaccinate new population during one either: that large vaccinated population providing herd immunity gives you a lot of runway for children with less access.
- pjc50 2mo ago> Vaccines aren't something you need urgently in a crisis .. what were you doing in 2020? > you are unlikely to need to make a novel vaccine over the course of a war The lab leak people are probably wrong, but in the present era we're a lot closer to "hook AI up to a CRISPR machine and generate a biological weapon" than we have ever been. Everyone seems to assume that we might get in a war that we recognize and can fight with the tools of WW2, ships and tanks, rather than a war we don't recognize fought with weapons we don't understand and have no counter for. Or, more likely, simply get bought out at the top. Why fire a missile when you can buy a political party for a mere £5m?
- XorNot 2mo ago> .. what were you doing in 2020? Waiting several years for widespread vaccine availability, and practicing good hygiene and social distancing. Viruses aren't so good at seizing and holding territory.
- ben_w 2mo agoAs I recall, the economic damage of the pandemic was ~ "it's worth spending ten billion dollars to make the vaccinations arrive one day sooner": https://www.newsweek.com/operation-warp-speed-what-deal-opinion-1520816 https://www.newsweek.com/operation-warp-speed-what-deal-opin... (And that was just the cost to the USA, not the world as a whole).
- XorNot 2mo ago
- ben_w 2mo ago> On the other hand I don't think many governments are that concerned about another pandemic, sometimes the discourse regarding it very much sounds like "what are the odds it'll happen again" Gambler's fallacy will keep striking until we do better, won't it.
- matt727 2mo agoThe food example, is the exact reason for large farming subsidies in the European Union. These were implemented as a founding initiative, due to the experience of food shortages during the second world war. A great number of things could be considered critical. Due to the nature of when access could be cut off, the main thing countries likely worry about being able to access, is things humans need to stay alive, and things needed to wage war.
- 0x3f 2mo agoFarming subsidies are one of the most criticized parts of the EU. My comment isn't in support of it. But even so, subsidy is quite different from compulsory purchase. The question is: why is steel special. Not in a no-action-vs-some-action way, but why so aggressive? Ironically I think it's the same for both steel and farmers: they provide votes.
- XorNot 2mo agoBecause like, every basic war machine is made from it? Like how is this a question? There's been two world wars and access to or stockpiling of steel has been a critical strategic factor in both. Most consumable military assets are made from steel, for example and it underpins most machine tools and factory components as well.
- lazide 2mo agoAlso all non-flying forms of transport.
- handelaar 2mo agoFor lots of reasons but if you're the UK and you're honest with yourself and you are only allowed to pick exactly one reason that steel is absolutely critical? Royal Navy.
- t0mpr1c3 2mo agoEzcept that the shipyards closed in the 1970s.
- 1970-01-01 2mo agoSteel comes from iron, which you can't grow. It's more critical than food, which you can grow. Same for vaccines.
- 0x3f 2mo ago> Steel comes from iron, which you can't grow Right, and where is the iron coming from in the scenario where we can't import steel?
- 1970-01-01 2mo agoAs it is top-critical, you're recycling it, opening new mines, and taking it by force.
- 0x3f 2mo agoDon't most of these contingencies apply to steel in the first place?
- 1970-01-01 2mo agoNope. The entire point here is facing the decision on which of these contingencies will apply.
- remus 2mo agoObviously there are a lot of important things you need to keep a country running, but steel is a key input a in a huge number of very important sectors (infrastructure, military, automotive etc.) so having some ability to produce your own steel seems a sensible hedge.
- cucumber3732842 2mo ago>Why is steel any more critical than food or vaccines or the like? Countries that import large shares of their food and medical supply chains are constantly trying to develop domestic capacity.
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