7 ms·

I migrated to Germany 10+ years ago and I'm still here. Based on my limited experience, there are two big issues. First, things are bad: trains are getting wor

I migrated to Germany 10+ years ago and I'm still here. Based on my limited experience, there are two big issues. First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on. If you're a fresh immigrant who cannot find a job in an economic crisis (aka "most of them") you may very well wonder why staying here alone when you could be just as unemployed near your family. Second: I won't say that Germany is xenophobic (not even all AfD voters) but I will say it's unfriendly. Work example: I've worked in multiple places in German without language issues, and yet many jobs automatically disqualify me because they ask for "minimum C2", a rank I don't have and one that many native Germans wouldn't achieve either. Add less chances to make a social circle, inflexibility, not great weather, and a government that's constantly calling you lazy and entitled, and that's how you get depressed. The sad part is, Germany has all the pieces to be a great place to live that, for some reason, has decided to dismantle them all one by one.

Schlagbohrer 2mo ago
It has been my experience that many jobs which say "Must have C1 German" or something like that just mean "You need to be able to speak with us in German at work" and if you can speak at B2 level, that's perfectly fine. I had B1 level German and got job offers from places with such requirements because I can speak pretty well with my German colleagues who dont know any english, and I can use a mix when speaking about complicated things with my other colleagues.
polotics 2mo ago
There are sclerotic forces at work in Germany. I sometimes wonder if the digestion of East-Germany hasn't somehow hurt a post-war rejuvenated Western&Southern German spirit. Maybe it's just post-traumatic-stress from the Russian occupation still lingering: 1989 is not that far, generations-wise. There is hope still... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7MCko43YqeZ1x55O1DRtw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7MCko43YqeZ1x55O1DRtw
- Schlagbohrer 2mo ago
  East Germany was completely looted by West German corporations. There were east german workers who's final job was packing up all the machinery and inventory in their plant to ship to the west german company that had bought it all for €1, for example. Basically west germany did to the former east what private equity in the united states does to many companies- tear it down for scrap and sell it off. Then years later people blame the Ossies for just being backwards. If you want more information about this I highly recommend Katja Hoyer's book, "Beyond the Wall" about life in the east and the problems of reunifcation.
  - ahf8Aithaex7Nai 2mo ago
    Absolutely right: they took advantage of us and exploited us, and ever since then they’ve been calling us lazy. Many people in East Germany and West Germany don’t even realize this, but what actually happened during reunification closely resembles the way a colonial power treats a colonized territory: extraction of value, exploitation of cheap labor, and systematic discrimination against the local population. For many people from the generation before mine, there’s the typical term “Wendeverlierer” (those who lost out in the reunification). I would classify my father and other members of my family into this group. Even in my generation, it’s still the case that West Germans from comparable social classes have disproportionately more inherited wealth and prosperity. We East Germans, on the other hand, have longer de facto working hours and lower salaries. I don't blame every single West German for this, but collectively, I do hold Germany largely responsible for the fact that East Germany and East Germans remain economically disadvantaged to this day. The saddest part is that there are even many East Germans who don't see this at all, but instead attribute the economic stagnation of many regions in eastern Germany to the mindset of the people living there.
throwawaypath 2mo ago
>First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on. Any minute now those millions of doctors, lawyers, and engineers from the MENA countries that flooded Germany the past decade will fix all that! Any minute!
- _zoltan_ 2mo ago
  that was such a self inflicted wound that Europe, and Germany, did to itself. No wonder people are voting AfD. and for the downvoters: these are facts. this is what the politician in Europe campaigned with, built platforms on and said for everything. "We'll get engineers, and doctors! Lots of workers!" Fast forward 5 years... How's the Willkommenkultur going you ask? Look at AfD. Look recently at the 10 million Switzerland votes. And I'm writing this as an immigrant myself... It's sad.
  - ifwinterco 2mo ago
    The backlash is baked in now I think, people hoping it will just go away are delusional. But if European elites (including UK) are smart they should be able to avoid the worst outcomes, most people don't really want trouble. Issue is, there's no sign of smartness so far
  - bulbar 2mo ago
    You talking about refugees or migration? That's two totally different things. Germany is in desperate need of migration and yes, the people that come are skilled workers. Refugees is a completely different topic.
    - account42 2mo ago
      The "refugees" are migrants. Low-skilled migrants who would not make it through to normal immigration process but still migrants. They are not coming here for safety but to build a better life for themselves - and their families who are often initially left back home.
atoav 2mo ago
The issues you see now in Germany are the direct consequence of the Merkel era conservative government and its austerity policy. They really wanted to get the deficit down at all cost. And all cost included any sort of needed maintenance on public infrastructure.
- mimischi 2mo ago
  Danke Merkel! /s
  - cineticdaffodil 2mo ago
    Wir schaffen das/s!
- talon8635 2mo ago
  I have zero knowledge on German politics. But I do wonder, if these same problems are plagues many (most) big cities (and even countries) in the west, including very liberal and high spending governments, how can we safely conclude it’s a conservative problem (or a liberal one)?
  - atoav 2mo ago
    Well in this case it is a documented trail of defering needed maintenance with the argument of needing to safe money. I did not argue that this is a outcome that can only happen to conservative governments. In fact I am convinced it is a fundamental problem of how politics work: you elect politicians to government for a limited period, so they often try to push off costs for which the ultimate prize will be paid to the next period, in which they may not be in government anymore. But of course conservative governments tend to be more often part of that dynamic since austerity politics and conservatism often (although, not always) go hand in hand. Often the austerity has a smidgen of corruption as well, where government contracts that then need to be made (urgently! since maintenance was deferred!) often go to the politicians private friends. Free market for thee and not for me. Another classic is to starve some working government/public institutions budget, only to then point at the mess and explain why this needs to privatized (coincidentally you know exactly the right guy to step in, what a surprise). I am not saying that it is only conservative polticians that do that, but it tends to be a bit harder to do while e.g. demanding democratic socialist policy and strong public institutions.
froh 2mo ago
there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus, ackchyually... I assume.thats your point here, but to bystanders: C2 is nearly native speaker language proficiency, nuanced, precise, eloquent. if language production is the job, or impeccable understanding is a must have, like as a psychotherapist, then C2 is a reasonable requirement. in contrast you can study in german language at a German university with C1 proficiency already.
- eunos 2mo ago
  > there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus A subtle hint they want born-and-raised German rather than immigrant.
- mmarq 2mo ago
  C2 is better than the language proficiency of the median native speaker. A C2 speaker is comparable to a highly educated native speaker with a master degree who reads regularly.
  - froh 2mo ago
    indeed C1 is high school level indeed and C2 is academics. this has been studied on native speakers: me> I'm looking for studies which examine citizens language proficiency in their native tongue in the European language reference framework i.e. b2 C1 C2 Gemini> https://share.google/aimode/bImgIsAl5VfAcuoFl https://share.google/aimode/bImgIsAl5VfAcuoFl has links to studies also here is the "self assessment" on the CEFR home page: Self-assessment grid - Table 2 (CEFR 3.3) : Common Reference levels - Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) https://share.google/E6POb6UYC53cUkxXg https://share.google/E6POb6UYC53cUkxXg
  - djaro 2mo ago
    If a native speaker didn't pass a C2 exam, it's not because they don't understand the language well enough, it's because they are bad at reading/writing as a skill and might make e.g. spelling mistakes. Any native speaker will still be far beyond C2 when it comes to intuitively understanding a language and using it. No native speaker will ever fail the oral part of a C2 exam, unless they have to talk about a topic they don't know, which would be a case of a lack of knowledge, not a lack of language proficiency.
cloudie78 2mo ago
What has kept you from achieving C2, you’ve been there for 10y+
- skylurk 2mo ago
  Just ask Mark Twain ;) https://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html https://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html
- probably_wrong 2mo ago
  It may not sound like a satisfying answer, but: because I'm not here to earn a language certificate but rather to live and work, my German is more than fine, and I think my time could be better employed doing something else. I've worked in German institutions for a long time now, I've published in German, I have no problems understanding people and, leaving my accent aside, people can understand me. I read books in German and understand German movies. My German is fine. I could take time away from learning what's new in tech and science (a lot, apparently) to get a C2 but, and I may be wrong here, I don't think someone asking for "minimum C2" (which, again, disqualifies even native Germans) is engaging with the process in good faith. I have no objections to learning the language, which is why I've done it. What I do object to is chasing a pointless certificate when I could be doing the thing I was brought here to do.
- helge9210 2mo ago
  C1 can be achieved (I did it on 360 hours). C2 is academic level of language proficiency -- you have to either deliberately study for the difficult exam or get an university degree in German. Most of the Germans won't be able to pass a C2 test. When a company sets C2 as a requirement, it can be interpreted as "must have a degree from German University".
  - jadtz 2mo ago
    Hi, I am interested in language learning, and your first sentence caught my attention. I am currently learning german, do you have a blog post on your journey of learning a language in 360 hours? around 45 days if 8 hours per day. How were you able to achieve so much with so little time?
sva_ 2mo ago
> First, things are bad As a German, it sounds like you integrated well.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  What's that supposed to mean?
  - Tarsul 2mo ago
    assimilation of German pessimistic tendencies.
DStiego 2mo ago
This is one of the most accurate descriptions I’ve seen here. Germany is a country with immense potential. All one can say is “what a shame”.

Schlagbohrer 2mo ago

It has been my experience that many jobs which say "Must have C1 German" or something like that just mean "You need to be able to speak with us in German at work" and if you can speak at B2 level, that's perfectly fine. I had B1 level German and got job offers from places with such requirements because I can speak pretty well with my German colleagues who dont know any english, and I can use a mix when speaking about complicated things with my other colleagues.

polotics 2mo ago

There are sclerotic forces at work in Germany. I sometimes wonder if the digestion of East-Germany hasn't somehow hurt a post-war rejuvenated Western&Southern German spirit. Maybe it's just post-traumatic-stress from the Russian occupation still lingering: 1989 is not that far, generations-wise. There is hope still... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7MCko43YqeZ1x55O1DRtw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7MCko43YqeZ1x55O1DRtw

Schlagbohrer 2mo ago
East Germany was completely looted by West German corporations. There were east german workers who's final job was packing up all the machinery and inventory in their plant to ship to the west german company that had bought it all for €1, for example. Basically west germany did to the former east what private equity in the united states does to many companies- tear it down for scrap and sell it off. Then years later people blame the Ossies for just being backwards. If you want more information about this I highly recommend Katja Hoyer's book, "Beyond the Wall" about life in the east and the problems of reunifcation.
- ahf8Aithaex7Nai 2mo ago
  Absolutely right: they took advantage of us and exploited us, and ever since then they’ve been calling us lazy. Many people in East Germany and West Germany don’t even realize this, but what actually happened during reunification closely resembles the way a colonial power treats a colonized territory: extraction of value, exploitation of cheap labor, and systematic discrimination against the local population. For many people from the generation before mine, there’s the typical term “Wendeverlierer” (those who lost out in the reunification). I would classify my father and other members of my family into this group. Even in my generation, it’s still the case that West Germans from comparable social classes have disproportionately more inherited wealth and prosperity. We East Germans, on the other hand, have longer de facto working hours and lower salaries. I don't blame every single West German for this, but collectively, I do hold Germany largely responsible for the fact that East Germany and East Germans remain economically disadvantaged to this day. The saddest part is that there are even many East Germans who don't see this at all, but instead attribute the economic stagnation of many regions in eastern Germany to the mindset of the people living there.

throwawaypath 2mo ago

>First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on. Any minute now those millions of doctors, lawyers, and engineers from the MENA countries that flooded Germany the past decade will fix all that! Any minute!

_zoltan_ 2mo ago
that was such a self inflicted wound that Europe, and Germany, did to itself. No wonder people are voting AfD. and for the downvoters: these are facts. this is what the politician in Europe campaigned with, built platforms on and said for everything. "We'll get engineers, and doctors! Lots of workers!" Fast forward 5 years... How's the Willkommenkultur going you ask? Look at AfD. Look recently at the 10 million Switzerland votes. And I'm writing this as an immigrant myself... It's sad.
- ifwinterco 2mo ago
  The backlash is baked in now I think, people hoping it will just go away are delusional. But if European elites (including UK) are smart they should be able to avoid the worst outcomes, most people don't really want trouble. Issue is, there's no sign of smartness so far
- bulbar 2mo ago
  You talking about refugees or migration? That's two totally different things. Germany is in desperate need of migration and yes, the people that come are skilled workers. Refugees is a completely different topic.
  - account42 2mo ago
    The "refugees" are migrants. Low-skilled migrants who would not make it through to normal immigration process but still migrants. They are not coming here for safety but to build a better life for themselves - and their families who are often initially left back home.

atoav 2mo ago

The issues you see now in Germany are the direct consequence of the Merkel era conservative government and its austerity policy. They really wanted to get the deficit down at all cost. And all cost included any sort of needed maintenance on public infrastructure.

mimischi 2mo ago
Danke Merkel! /s
- cineticdaffodil 2mo ago
  Wir schaffen das/s!
talon8635 2mo ago
I have zero knowledge on German politics. But I do wonder, if these same problems are plagues many (most) big cities (and even countries) in the west, including very liberal and high spending governments, how can we safely conclude it’s a conservative problem (or a liberal one)?
- atoav 2mo ago
  Well in this case it is a documented trail of defering needed maintenance with the argument of needing to safe money. I did not argue that this is a outcome that can only happen to conservative governments. In fact I am convinced it is a fundamental problem of how politics work: you elect politicians to government for a limited period, so they often try to push off costs for which the ultimate prize will be paid to the next period, in which they may not be in government anymore. But of course conservative governments tend to be more often part of that dynamic since austerity politics and conservatism often (although, not always) go hand in hand. Often the austerity has a smidgen of corruption as well, where government contracts that then need to be made (urgently! since maintenance was deferred!) often go to the politicians private friends. Free market for thee and not for me. Another classic is to starve some working government/public institutions budget, only to then point at the mess and explain why this needs to privatized (coincidentally you know exactly the right guy to step in, what a surprise). I am not saying that it is only conservative polticians that do that, but it tends to be a bit harder to do while e.g. demanding democratic socialist policy and strong public institutions.

froh 2mo ago

there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus, ackchyually... I assume.thats your point here, but to bystanders: C2 is nearly native speaker language proficiency, nuanced, precise, eloquent. if language production is the job, or impeccable understanding is a must have, like as a psychotherapist, then C2 is a reasonable requirement. in contrast you can study in german language at a German university with C1 proficiency already.

eunos 2mo ago
> there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus A subtle hint they want born-and-raised German rather than immigrant.
mmarq 2mo ago
C2 is better than the language proficiency of the median native speaker. A C2 speaker is comparable to a highly educated native speaker with a master degree who reads regularly.
- froh 2mo ago
  indeed C1 is high school level indeed and C2 is academics. this has been studied on native speakers: me> I'm looking for studies which examine citizens language proficiency in their native tongue in the European language reference framework i.e. b2 C1 C2 Gemini> https://share.google/aimode/bImgIsAl5VfAcuoFl https://share.google/aimode/bImgIsAl5VfAcuoFl has links to studies also here is the "self assessment" on the CEFR home page: Self-assessment grid - Table 2 (CEFR 3.3) : Common Reference levels - Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) https://share.google/E6POb6UYC53cUkxXg https://share.google/E6POb6UYC53cUkxXg
- djaro 2mo ago
  If a native speaker didn't pass a C2 exam, it's not because they don't understand the language well enough, it's because they are bad at reading/writing as a skill and might make e.g. spelling mistakes. Any native speaker will still be far beyond C2 when it comes to intuitively understanding a language and using it. No native speaker will ever fail the oral part of a C2 exam, unless they have to talk about a topic they don't know, which would be a case of a lack of knowledge, not a lack of language proficiency.

cloudie78 2mo ago

What has kept you from achieving C2, you’ve been there for 10y+

skylurk 2mo ago
Just ask Mark Twain ;) https://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html https://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html
probably_wrong 2mo ago
It may not sound like a satisfying answer, but: because I'm not here to earn a language certificate but rather to live and work, my German is more than fine, and I think my time could be better employed doing something else. I've worked in German institutions for a long time now, I've published in German, I have no problems understanding people and, leaving my accent aside, people can understand me. I read books in German and understand German movies. My German is fine. I could take time away from learning what's new in tech and science (a lot, apparently) to get a C2 but, and I may be wrong here, I don't think someone asking for "minimum C2" (which, again, disqualifies even native Germans) is engaging with the process in good faith. I have no objections to learning the language, which is why I've done it. What I do object to is chasing a pointless certificate when I could be doing the thing I was brought here to do.
helge9210 2mo ago
C1 can be achieved (I did it on 360 hours). C2 is academic level of language proficiency -- you have to either deliberately study for the difficult exam or get an university degree in German. Most of the Germans won't be able to pass a C2 test. When a company sets C2 as a requirement, it can be interpreted as "must have a degree from German University".
- jadtz 2mo ago
  Hi, I am interested in language learning, and your first sentence caught my attention. I am currently learning german, do you have a blog post on your journey of learning a language in 360 hours? around 45 days if 8 hours per day. How were you able to achieve so much with so little time?

sva_ 2mo ago

> First, things are bad As a German, it sounds like you integrated well.

inigyou 2mo ago
What's that supposed to mean?
- Tarsul 2mo ago
  assimilation of German pessimistic tendencies.

DStiego 2mo ago

This is one of the most accurate descriptions I’ve seen here. Germany is a country with immense potential. All one can say is “what a shame”.