6 ms·

It never did. In debt the first 5000 years Geaeber makes the case that pure “free market” trade has never really existed in “the west”. The closest to this ide

by m-ee 3mo ago

It never did. In debt the first 5000 years Geaeber makes the case that pure “free market” trade has never really existed in “the west”. The closest to this ideal that’s ever happened was during the Islamic golden age enabled by religious prescriptions against usury.

gruez 3mo ago
>The closest to this ideal that’s ever happened was during the Islamic golden age enabled by religious prescriptions against usury. How does are bans against consensual financial exchanges close to the "ideal" of the free market? It just sounds like you have an axe to grind about the financial system rather than describing free markets.
- asdf88990 3mo ago
  Usury and debt based economy creates a dynamic where being competitive in production is secondary to financialistion. In short, instead of market being driven by demand and productivity, it is driven by financier curving out monopolies. Peak Examples are Uber and AirBnB.
  - gruez 3mo ago
    What makes this view more correct than say, "economies with marketing creates a dynamic where being competitive in production is secondary to marketing" and concluding that nothings a free market until we ban all advertising? After all, you can make a vaguely plausible argument about how marketing isn't really about the merits of the product, and therefore allowing it is antithetical to the free market or whatever
    - asdf88990 3mo ago
      Marketing isn’t free for starters. Second, marketing can take you only so far compared to the subsidies possible with financialisation. The West is in a state of psychosis with Debt and Monopolies under the illusion of free market. The Chinese markets are more free than West, you can just look at the Auto and AI industry.
      - SR2Z 3mo ago
        I'm flabbergasted that you look at the Chinese property crisis and say "only the West does irresponsible loans." No, 60% of China's economy is state-run companies and the remaining 40% need political officers. China is just as capable of making shortsighted decisions as the US, and they have already made several devastating ones.
        majormajor 3mo ago
        >I'm flabbergasted that you look at the Chinese property crisis and say "only the West does irresponsible loans." No, 60% of China's economy is state-run companies and the remaining 40% need political officers. China is just as capable of making shortsighted decisions as the US, and they have already made several devastating ones. While these are hardly shy claims, I don't see anything in them to say "only the West does irresponsible loans"? > The West is in a state of psychosis with Debt and Monopolies under the illusion of free market. > The Chinese markets are more free than West, you can just look at the Auto and AI industry. or the prior post >Usury and debt based economy creates a dynamic where being competitive in production is secondary to financialistion. > In short, instead of market being driven by demand and productivity, it is driven by financier curving out monopolies. > Peak Examples are Uber and AirBnB. You can throw a rock these days and find a category where the products coming out of China are miles ahead of those coming out of the rest of the world, from a bunch of companies nobody had heard of a few years earlier. And the list is growing pretty steadily. I would assume plenty of shortsighted decisions are also being made. But I would have a hard time characterizing the state of competition in the west as healthier or more productive when looking at the number of players and the quality of goods being produced in China.
        likeclockwork 3mo ago
        state-run corporation are bad but corporate-run state is good?
        asdfsa32 3mo ago
        You seem to only affirm the GPs psychosis commentary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacturers_of_China#Major_privately_owned_manufacturers/brands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacture... vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacturers_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacture... Financier want monopoly so use usury for Consolidation. Monopoly bad because no free market. Free market good. consumer happy. citizen free.
    - majormajor 3mo ago
      > What makes this view more correct than say, "economies with marketing creates a dynamic where being competitive in production is secondary to marketing" and concluding that nothings a free market until we ban all advertising? After all, you can make a vaguely plausible argument about how marketing isn't really about the merits of the product, and therefore allowing it is antithetical to the free market or whatever Wait, so your pitch in favor of a debt-fueled market economy is that advertising is awesome and that we wouldn't want to "lose" being smothered in ads all the time? Cause... sign me up for the non-financialized, non-mass-media-advertising-driven economy please and thank you. I'd even be ok with just nuking billboards and mass-media forms of ads and still allowing more direct forms of marketing, if we must compromise! Likely we could find some compromises around just how much of the debt world we regulate too (this should be obvious?). (I thought the disconnect between the efficiency of competition and the market as realized in modern economies was pretty well understood and taken for granted, but I guess we all find ways to justify the system we're profiting from... even if that means we have to claim we love the ad breaks)
      - gruez 3mo ago
        >Wait, so your pitch in favor of a debt-fueled market economy is that advertising is awesome and that we wouldn't want to "lose" being smothered in ads all the time? The point is that if add random caveats to what counts as free market, it won't be "free market", only "market I like".
  - SR2Z 3mo ago
    ...except Uber STILL faces competition, and I went back to hotels after finding AirBnB too pricy. It is good and proper that people aim to create monopolies, as long as they want to do that in a productive and legal way! Monopolies are inherently dangerous, but the truth is that acquiring and maintaining one is not straightforward unless you can get the government to ban your competitors.
    - bigfudge 3mo ago
      Even if these companies monopoly falters after IPO the disruption and distraction to a focus on producing can be a problem.
  - digitaltrees 3mo ago
    Expand. I am typically against hard money gold bug libertarian arguments but your description seems interesting and I am open to being persuaded.
  - wqaatwt 3mo ago
    No access to capital can and does constrain supply to a very high degree.
    - asdf88990 3mo ago
      Capital will not be hoarded and stuffed in pillows without Usury. People are happy to take bets for profit and loses, I mean, that is like the entire stock market schtick.
      - wqaatwt 3mo ago
        I don’t exactly see how the modern stock market is superior based on the (moral not economic) criteria being discussed in this thread? It’s even more speculative and detached from productive behaviors.
- m-ee 3mo ago
  Debt creates debt crises. Throughout history it’s been a major function of any government to resolve these. Notably this function predates any concept of a market in the modern sense. For the most part markets were created by fiat by the government for its own purpose (usually supporting its armies) rather than springing from the ground organically only to later be regulated. I’m not advocating for Islamic finance, it’s just a funny artifact of history that the closest thing to a “free market” unfettered by government interest, did not happen in the “western” world most of its advocates come from.
UltraSane 3mo ago
Without interest why would anyone loan money? Even the Islamic banking alternatives all just hide the interest charges.
- asdf88990 3mo ago
  Shares and Goodwill. You loan money for good well or share of an enterprise which comes with benefits and risks.
  - wahnfrieden 3mo ago
    Usury is so delicious to many that it’s unfathomable to consider any other incentive comparing to it
    - UltraSane 3mo ago
      What is unfathomable is how you have a functioning economy without easy access to loans at reasonable interest rates.
      - asdf88990 3mo ago
        The same way Stock Market works. Really, Debt benefits a tiny fraction of people involved in the market.
        munksbeer 3mo ago
        Isn't it just the same thing? You loan the company money and in return they give you a note that says you get a portion of the company and dividends? Different mechanics, but stripping everything away, roughly the same.
        asdf88990 3mo ago
        No, because if the company loses money you lose too. With Usury/Debt you pay for lending money and you pay whatever the enterprise makes money or not.
gaiagraphia 3mo ago
>religious prescriptions against usury.
jujube3 3mo ago
Graeber was a confabulator with a very loose grasp of the facts, though.
vasco 3mo ago
You can read Adam Smith if you're looking for definitions, there's no need to read charlatans.
- m-ee 3mo ago
  If I wanted moral philosophy I’d read a better moral philosopher
MarsIronPI 3mo ago
Usury (i.e. taking interest) sounds like free market to me. If you don't like my interest rates, borrow somewhere else.

by m-ee 3mo ago

gruez 3mo ago

>The closest to this ideal that’s ever happened was during the Islamic golden age enabled by religious prescriptions against usury. How does are bans against consensual financial exchanges close to the "ideal" of the free market? It just sounds like you have an axe to grind about the financial system rather than describing free markets.

asdf88990 3mo ago
Usury and debt based economy creates a dynamic where being competitive in production is secondary to financialistion. In short, instead of market being driven by demand and productivity, it is driven by financier curving out monopolies. Peak Examples are Uber and AirBnB.
- gruez 3mo ago
  What makes this view more correct than say, "economies with marketing creates a dynamic where being competitive in production is secondary to marketing" and concluding that nothings a free market until we ban all advertising? After all, you can make a vaguely plausible argument about how marketing isn't really about the merits of the product, and therefore allowing it is antithetical to the free market or whatever
  - asdf88990 3mo ago
    Marketing isn’t free for starters. Second, marketing can take you only so far compared to the subsidies possible with financialisation. The West is in a state of psychosis with Debt and Monopolies under the illusion of free market. The Chinese markets are more free than West, you can just look at the Auto and AI industry.
    - SR2Z 3mo ago
      I'm flabbergasted that you look at the Chinese property crisis and say "only the West does irresponsible loans." No, 60% of China's economy is state-run companies and the remaining 40% need political officers. China is just as capable of making shortsighted decisions as the US, and they have already made several devastating ones.
      - majormajor 3mo ago
        >I'm flabbergasted that you look at the Chinese property crisis and say "only the West does irresponsible loans." No, 60% of China's economy is state-run companies and the remaining 40% need political officers. China is just as capable of making shortsighted decisions as the US, and they have already made several devastating ones. While these are hardly shy claims, I don't see anything in them to say "only the West does irresponsible loans"? > The West is in a state of psychosis with Debt and Monopolies under the illusion of free market. > The Chinese markets are more free than West, you can just look at the Auto and AI industry. or the prior post >Usury and debt based economy creates a dynamic where being competitive in production is secondary to financialistion. > In short, instead of market being driven by demand and productivity, it is driven by financier curving out monopolies. > Peak Examples are Uber and AirBnB. You can throw a rock these days and find a category where the products coming out of China are miles ahead of those coming out of the rest of the world, from a bunch of companies nobody had heard of a few years earlier. And the list is growing pretty steadily. I would assume plenty of shortsighted decisions are also being made. But I would have a hard time characterizing the state of competition in the west as healthier or more productive when looking at the number of players and the quality of goods being produced in China.
      - likeclockwork 3mo ago
        state-run corporation are bad but corporate-run state is good?
        asdfsa32 3mo ago
        You seem to only affirm the GPs psychosis commentary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacturers_of_China#Major_privately_owned_manufacturers/brands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacture... vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacturers_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacture... Financier want monopoly so use usury for Consolidation. Monopoly bad because no free market. Free market good. consumer happy. citizen free.
  - majormajor 3mo ago
    > What makes this view more correct than say, "economies with marketing creates a dynamic where being competitive in production is secondary to marketing" and concluding that nothings a free market until we ban all advertising? After all, you can make a vaguely plausible argument about how marketing isn't really about the merits of the product, and therefore allowing it is antithetical to the free market or whatever Wait, so your pitch in favor of a debt-fueled market economy is that advertising is awesome and that we wouldn't want to "lose" being smothered in ads all the time? Cause... sign me up for the non-financialized, non-mass-media-advertising-driven economy please and thank you. I'd even be ok with just nuking billboards and mass-media forms of ads and still allowing more direct forms of marketing, if we must compromise! Likely we could find some compromises around just how much of the debt world we regulate too (this should be obvious?). (I thought the disconnect between the efficiency of competition and the market as realized in modern economies was pretty well understood and taken for granted, but I guess we all find ways to justify the system we're profiting from... even if that means we have to claim we love the ad breaks)
    - gruez 3mo ago
      >Wait, so your pitch in favor of a debt-fueled market economy is that advertising is awesome and that we wouldn't want to "lose" being smothered in ads all the time? The point is that if add random caveats to what counts as free market, it won't be "free market", only "market I like".
- SR2Z 3mo ago
  ...except Uber STILL faces competition, and I went back to hotels after finding AirBnB too pricy. It is good and proper that people aim to create monopolies, as long as they want to do that in a productive and legal way! Monopolies are inherently dangerous, but the truth is that acquiring and maintaining one is not straightforward unless you can get the government to ban your competitors.
  - bigfudge 3mo ago
    Even if these companies monopoly falters after IPO the disruption and distraction to a focus on producing can be a problem.
- digitaltrees 3mo ago
  Expand. I am typically against hard money gold bug libertarian arguments but your description seems interesting and I am open to being persuaded.
- wqaatwt 3mo ago
  No access to capital can and does constrain supply to a very high degree.
  - asdf88990 3mo ago
    Capital will not be hoarded and stuffed in pillows without Usury. People are happy to take bets for profit and loses, I mean, that is like the entire stock market schtick.
    - wqaatwt 3mo ago
      I don’t exactly see how the modern stock market is superior based on the (moral not economic) criteria being discussed in this thread? It’s even more speculative and detached from productive behaviors.
m-ee 3mo ago
Debt creates debt crises. Throughout history it’s been a major function of any government to resolve these. Notably this function predates any concept of a market in the modern sense. For the most part markets were created by fiat by the government for its own purpose (usually supporting its armies) rather than springing from the ground organically only to later be regulated. I’m not advocating for Islamic finance, it’s just a funny artifact of history that the closest thing to a “free market” unfettered by government interest, did not happen in the “western” world most of its advocates come from.

UltraSane 3mo ago

Without interest why would anyone loan money? Even the Islamic banking alternatives all just hide the interest charges.

asdf88990 3mo ago
Shares and Goodwill. You loan money for good well or share of an enterprise which comes with benefits and risks.
- wahnfrieden 3mo ago
  Usury is so delicious to many that it’s unfathomable to consider any other incentive comparing to it
  - UltraSane 3mo ago
    What is unfathomable is how you have a functioning economy without easy access to loans at reasonable interest rates.
    - asdf88990 3mo ago
      The same way Stock Market works. Really, Debt benefits a tiny fraction of people involved in the market.
      - munksbeer 3mo ago
        Isn't it just the same thing? You loan the company money and in return they give you a note that says you get a portion of the company and dividends? Different mechanics, but stripping everything away, roughly the same.
        asdf88990 3mo ago
        No, because if the company loses money you lose too. With Usury/Debt you pay for lending money and you pay whatever the enterprise makes money or not.

gaiagraphia 3mo ago

>religious prescriptions against usury.

jujube3 3mo ago

Graeber was a confabulator with a very loose grasp of the facts, though.

vasco 3mo ago

You can read Adam Smith if you're looking for definitions, there's no need to read charlatans.

m-ee 3mo ago
If I wanted moral philosophy I’d read a better moral philosopher

MarsIronPI 3mo ago

Usury (i.e. taking interest) sounds like free market to me. If you don't like my interest rates, borrow somewhere else.