8 ms·

Feudal Japan had a measurement called the "koku", which is roughly the amount of rice needed to feed a person for a year: about 330 lb. You can now buy 50 lb. o

by austinl 4mo ago

Feudal Japan had a measurement called the "koku", which is roughly the amount of rice needed to feed a person for a year: about 330 lb. You can now buy 50 lb. of rice at Costco for $30, which is a few hours of work at minimum wage. To me, that is a modern marvel. I don't want people to buy things that they don't need, and I also don't like the crowds, but I can't help but feel grateful for a stocked grocery store that is accessible to basically everyone—isn't that the dream? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koku

defen 4mo ago
Historically speaking is that "enough food to keep someone alive for a year" or "the amount of rice one person eats in a year"?
- henryfjordan 4mo ago
  There's 1655 calories in a pound of uncooked rice, so with 330lbs you are sitting at ~1500 calories a day for a whole year. You wouldn't starve to death, but you'd absolutely want to supplement (both for more calories and probably for vitamins). But also you'd be eating that rice every single day pretty much, how else are you getting through that much rice?
  - whyenot 4mo ago
    Wouldn't you also need at least a little protein? and some lipids? For example, there is a lot more in Soylent than just rice flour. Oh, are we talking brown rice or white rice? That seems like it might make a huge difference, not only in nutrition, but also pooping.
    - Dylan16807 4mo ago
      That much brown rice will have around 12 grams of fat and 35 grams of protein. How much protein do you want for "at least a little"?
    - Avicebron 4mo ago
      Err (150kg)(3500kcal/kg) = (5.25E5 kcal/E_koku)/(365 days) = ~1500 kcal/day. So not great working in the field or fighting for the average guy. But I feel like this is one of those things where the average lord didn't count how many fish you caught or what have you. So I bet if you had miso, fish, and like some vegetables from the outside your house, you would probably survive alright. EDIT: the actual point is that it's probably not literal. Ease of quantifying and transporting dried rice over long distances without refrigeration probably had a lot of how they ended up with a Koku as useful measurement.
    - itishappy 4mo ago
      weevils
    - heathrow83829 4mo ago
      the biggest problem with white rice is the lack of fiber, the somewhat high glycemic index, and it has the same problem all processed grains have: lacking potassium, iron and magnesium. these days though white rice and other processed grains all come with added b-vitamins (before that started at the turn of the century, there were massive b-vitamin deficiencies popping up everywhere). white rice has less protein than most grains but at 9% of calories, that's still not bad though some variety wouldn't hurt. don't get me wrong, white rice isn't the worst thing in your diet but i think it's great to diversify with some whole grains and lots of beans (a real superfood), many of which can be had for 2$ to 3$ per 2k calories.
      - joshuahaglund 4mo ago
        https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/rice-disease-mystery-edo-tokyo-navy-beriberi https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/rice-disease-mystery-e... Lack of thiamine will get you first but you can switch to Brown rice which has both
      - jorvi 4mo ago
        The lameness is that brown rice is more expensive than white rice because it is a healthy choice. I know, price is what the market will bear blah blah. There is just something that feels fundamentally wrong about a product cheaper to produce being sold at a higher price purely because its the better choice for your health. Another cute principle in that category is convenience pricing. The 0.5L cola bottle with resealable twist cap is more expensive per liter than the 0.25L cans, purely because the bottle is more convenient to use on the go.
        Auracle 4mo ago
        I don’t think it’s because brown rice is the healthier choice. I assume it’s because people buy it less and it spoils way, way faster.
        caymanjim 4mo ago
        And because people want it more. Economy of scale is off the charts for white vs. brown rice.
    - brewdad 4mo ago
      Supplement with the 50lb bag of beans that sits 20 feet away from the rice at my Costco and you are pretty much there.
    - ericd 4mo ago
      For commoners in Feudal Japan, it would’ve been unpolished/brown rice, refining rice was labor intensive/expensive. When accessibility of white rice spread due to automation making it much cheaper, in the 1800s, it caused a huge epidemic of beriberi, which had once been a rich man’s disease, and killed a huge number of people.
      - Gareth321 4mo ago
        There are famous stories of prisoners in Japanese prisons during the World Wars being healthier than their captors because they ate refined, white rice instead of the brown rice for the prisoners.
    - deleted 4mo ago
      [deleted]
    - insane_dreamer 4mo ago
      rice and beans is a complete protein
- itishappy 4mo ago
  I interpret as the latter: > As a rule of thumb, one koku was considered a sufficient quantity of rice to feed one person for one year. I assume "sufficient rice" means it needs to be supplemented, and this is supported by the footnote as well: > Apparently 1.8 koku (1 koku and 8 to) was actually required for nourishment by a man each year, according to the conventional wisdom documented in a "home code" (kakun [ja]) of a certain merchant family in the Edo period.
jdpigeon 4mo ago
That's about $200 a koku at Costco
mc3301 4mo ago
Too bad in Japan that it's about 30USD for an 11 lb (5kg) of bad of rice. Japanese rice, in Japan, is nearly 5 times more expensive. (Note that last year, 5kg bags were as much as 8000jpy for standard rice, prices have come down a bit, but not a lot.)
- guessmyname 4mo ago
  That’s because the rice sold in Japan is generally the highest quality, so it makes sense that it costs more than the rice exported overseas to places like American supermarkets and Costco. The rice you see in US stores is usually a lower grade than what stays in Japan, though not necessarily “low quality.” Japan has historically been pretty selective about what gets exported versus kept for domestic consumption. There’s also been a rice shortage/crisis in Japan recently, which has pushed prices up even more. See here → https://www.borgenmagazine.com/japans-rice-crisis/ https://www.borgenmagazine.com/japans-rice-crisis/ and here → https://old.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/1kthwmr/e/ https://old.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/1kthwmr/e/
- Melatonic 4mo ago
  I would guess that rice is also a lot better quality Surely also restaurants and larger vendors have ways to buy rice in bulk in Japan - maybe they just don't have the American version for of this for consumers ? Sort of like how in the US people can go to a restaurant supply store (but often dont)
- alliao 4mo ago
  tariffs made Japanese rice farmers lazy.. just drop it and Japan will go back and eat rice
kemitchell 4mo ago
I wish Costco were accessible to basically everyone. Among some poorer people I've got to know in the SF Bay Area, having the card and confidence in the means to use it are a mark of the middle class, an aspirational thing. Membership is an up-front cost. That excludes those who can't part with the cash for no immediate benefit. Depending on what you buy, and what else is available around you, breakeven can take a good part of the year and a sizable number of purchases. Basically, you have to have the cash flow to play with money over time, even over a short timeline like an annual membership cycle. Costco also sells many if not all items in relatively large quantity, so membership makes more sense for those who can afford to pre-buy and store more than they need. It's the inverse of something like a so-called dollar store, which is too often where poor people get stuck buying smaller than grocery-standard quantities at higher per-unit costs. Of course, sometimes it makes sense to pool funds, buy together on one membership, and break packs. That costs coordination. Corner stores in poorer areas where I live often do this, with business memberships and resale certificates. At a margin, of course. I can't pretend to truly understand what it's like not being able to afford Costco. But I've had some opportunities to hear people who see it as out of reach. And to make some trips with "guests".
- daseiner1 4mo ago
  And thereby it is necessarily impossible for Costco to be available to everyone. The spending dynamic you've described is Costco.
- jatora 4mo ago
  I dont understand this. All Costco memberships are functionally $65 at most. How is this beyond literally anyone in America? Am I so out of touch? Why would corner stores have to pool together to get a membership when they absolutely negate the cost of the membership from the cashback? You only have to spend roughly $6,500/year for the executive membership of $130 to cost zero. That seems like something a corner store in any neighborhood wouldn't have much issue doing. As for the non store owners... $65 is the cost of one or two fast food meals. I don't believe this.
  - wavefunction 4mo ago
alliao 4mo ago
https://x.com/patrickheizer/status/2051972462414307659 https://x.com/patrickheizer/status/2051972462414307659
HWR_14 4mo ago
Rice is not created equal. Don't you need brown rice for the nutrients?
testbjjl 4mo ago
> I don't want people to buy things that they don't need What? This is 100% of 100% of us.
HerbManic 4mo ago
Sometimes I do that and figure out how much time I work for something. For many, that is only one or two days of work to get a year of minimum calories. If I decided to go full homestead and grow and process this myself, how long would that take? Way, way, WAY more than 2 days. Scale and specialization has done some amazing things and this is a great example of it.
dzonga 4mo ago
people like to shit on carbs - but they have done wonders in terms of ensuring food security & population growth. that same "koku" ensures - you can buy your portion of rice once a year & as long as you keep it dry - you're certainly sure you won't starve. same applies to boxed pasta boxes, beans etc. storing meat would surely be more expensive & a much bigger hustle.

by austinl 4mo ago

defen 4mo ago

Historically speaking is that "enough food to keep someone alive for a year" or "the amount of rice one person eats in a year"?

henryfjordan 4mo ago
There's 1655 calories in a pound of uncooked rice, so with 330lbs you are sitting at ~1500 calories a day for a whole year. You wouldn't starve to death, but you'd absolutely want to supplement (both for more calories and probably for vitamins). But also you'd be eating that rice every single day pretty much, how else are you getting through that much rice?
- whyenot 4mo ago
  Wouldn't you also need at least a little protein? and some lipids? For example, there is a lot more in Soylent than just rice flour. Oh, are we talking brown rice or white rice? That seems like it might make a huge difference, not only in nutrition, but also pooping.
  - Dylan16807 4mo ago
    That much brown rice will have around 12 grams of fat and 35 grams of protein. How much protein do you want for "at least a little"?
  - Avicebron 4mo ago
    Err (150kg)(3500kcal/kg) = (5.25E5 kcal/E_koku)/(365 days) = ~1500 kcal/day. So not great working in the field or fighting for the average guy. But I feel like this is one of those things where the average lord didn't count how many fish you caught or what have you. So I bet if you had miso, fish, and like some vegetables from the outside your house, you would probably survive alright. EDIT: the actual point is that it's probably not literal. Ease of quantifying and transporting dried rice over long distances without refrigeration probably had a lot of how they ended up with a Koku as useful measurement.
  - itishappy 4mo ago
    weevils
  - heathrow83829 4mo ago
    the biggest problem with white rice is the lack of fiber, the somewhat high glycemic index, and it has the same problem all processed grains have: lacking potassium, iron and magnesium. these days though white rice and other processed grains all come with added b-vitamins (before that started at the turn of the century, there were massive b-vitamin deficiencies popping up everywhere). white rice has less protein than most grains but at 9% of calories, that's still not bad though some variety wouldn't hurt. don't get me wrong, white rice isn't the worst thing in your diet but i think it's great to diversify with some whole grains and lots of beans (a real superfood), many of which can be had for 2$ to 3$ per 2k calories.
    - joshuahaglund 4mo ago
      https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/rice-disease-mystery-edo-tokyo-navy-beriberi https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/rice-disease-mystery-e... Lack of thiamine will get you first but you can switch to Brown rice which has both
    - jorvi 4mo ago
      The lameness is that brown rice is more expensive than white rice because it is a healthy choice. I know, price is what the market will bear blah blah. There is just something that feels fundamentally wrong about a product cheaper to produce being sold at a higher price purely because its the better choice for your health. Another cute principle in that category is convenience pricing. The 0.5L cola bottle with resealable twist cap is more expensive per liter than the 0.25L cans, purely because the bottle is more convenient to use on the go.
      - Auracle 4mo ago
        I don’t think it’s because brown rice is the healthier choice. I assume it’s because people buy it less and it spoils way, way faster.
        caymanjim 4mo ago
        And because people want it more. Economy of scale is off the charts for white vs. brown rice.
  - brewdad 4mo ago
    Supplement with the 50lb bag of beans that sits 20 feet away from the rice at my Costco and you are pretty much there.
  - ericd 4mo ago
    For commoners in Feudal Japan, it would’ve been unpolished/brown rice, refining rice was labor intensive/expensive. When accessibility of white rice spread due to automation making it much cheaper, in the 1800s, it caused a huge epidemic of beriberi, which had once been a rich man’s disease, and killed a huge number of people.
    - Gareth321 4mo ago
      There are famous stories of prisoners in Japanese prisons during the World Wars being healthier than their captors because they ate refined, white rice instead of the brown rice for the prisoners.
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
  - insane_dreamer 4mo ago
    rice and beans is a complete protein
itishappy 4mo ago
I interpret as the latter: > As a rule of thumb, one koku was considered a sufficient quantity of rice to feed one person for one year. I assume "sufficient rice" means it needs to be supplemented, and this is supported by the footnote as well: > Apparently 1.8 koku (1 koku and 8 to) was actually required for nourishment by a man each year, according to the conventional wisdom documented in a "home code" (kakun [ja]) of a certain merchant family in the Edo period.

jdpigeon 4mo ago

That's about $200 a koku at Costco

mc3301 4mo ago

Too bad in Japan that it's about 30USD for an 11 lb (5kg) of bad of rice. Japanese rice, in Japan, is nearly 5 times more expensive. (Note that last year, 5kg bags were as much as 8000jpy for standard rice, prices have come down a bit, but not a lot.)

guessmyname 4mo ago
That’s because the rice sold in Japan is generally the highest quality, so it makes sense that it costs more than the rice exported overseas to places like American supermarkets and Costco. The rice you see in US stores is usually a lower grade than what stays in Japan, though not necessarily “low quality.” Japan has historically been pretty selective about what gets exported versus kept for domestic consumption. There’s also been a rice shortage/crisis in Japan recently, which has pushed prices up even more. See here → https://www.borgenmagazine.com/japans-rice-crisis/ https://www.borgenmagazine.com/japans-rice-crisis/ and here → https://old.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/1kthwmr/e/ https://old.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/1kthwmr/e/
Melatonic 4mo ago
I would guess that rice is also a lot better quality Surely also restaurants and larger vendors have ways to buy rice in bulk in Japan - maybe they just don't have the American version for of this for consumers ? Sort of like how in the US people can go to a restaurant supply store (but often dont)
alliao 4mo ago
tariffs made Japanese rice farmers lazy.. just drop it and Japan will go back and eat rice

kemitchell 4mo ago

I wish Costco were accessible to basically everyone. Among some poorer people I've got to know in the SF Bay Area, having the card and confidence in the means to use it are a mark of the middle class, an aspirational thing. Membership is an up-front cost. That excludes those who can't part with the cash for no immediate benefit. Depending on what you buy, and what else is available around you, breakeven can take a good part of the year and a sizable number of purchases. Basically, you have to have the cash flow to play with money over time, even over a short timeline like an annual membership cycle. Costco also sells many if not all items in relatively large quantity, so membership makes more sense for those who can afford to pre-buy and store more than they need. It's the inverse of something like a so-called dollar store, which is too often where poor people get stuck buying smaller than grocery-standard quantities at higher per-unit costs. Of course, sometimes it makes sense to pool funds, buy together on one membership, and break packs. That costs coordination. Corner stores in poorer areas where I live often do this, with business memberships and resale certificates. At a margin, of course. I can't pretend to truly understand what it's like not being able to afford Costco. But I've had some opportunities to hear people who see it as out of reach. And to make some trips with "guests".

daseiner1 4mo ago
And thereby it is necessarily impossible for Costco to be available to everyone. The spending dynamic you've described is Costco.
jatora 4mo ago
I dont understand this. All Costco memberships are functionally $65 at most. How is this beyond literally anyone in America? Am I so out of touch? Why would corner stores have to pool together to get a membership when they absolutely negate the cost of the membership from the cashback? You only have to spend roughly $6,500/year for the executive membership of $130 to cost zero. That seems like something a corner store in any neighborhood wouldn't have much issue doing. As for the non store owners... $65 is the cost of one or two fast food meals. I don't believe this.
- wavefunction 4mo ago

alliao 4mo ago

https://x.com/patrickheizer/status/2051972462414307659 https://x.com/patrickheizer/status/2051972462414307659

HWR_14 4mo ago

Rice is not created equal. Don't you need brown rice for the nutrients?

testbjjl 4mo ago

> I don't want people to buy things that they don't need What? This is 100% of 100% of us.

HerbManic 4mo ago

Sometimes I do that and figure out how much time I work for something. For many, that is only one or two days of work to get a year of minimum calories. If I decided to go full homestead and grow and process this myself, how long would that take? Way, way, WAY more than 2 days. Scale and specialization has done some amazing things and this is a great example of it.

dzonga 4mo ago

people like to shit on carbs - but they have done wonders in terms of ensuring food security & population growth. that same "koku" ensures - you can buy your portion of rice once a year & as long as you keep it dry - you're certainly sure you won't starve. same applies to boxed pasta boxes, beans etc. storing meat would surely be more expensive & a much bigger hustle.