14 ms·

A breakdown of how I was talked out of $100

282 points by dskang 14y ago

drivingmenuts 14y ago
We had a skin-care salesgirl parked outside one of the Apple stores here in Austin. They really will try almost every trick in the book short of actual physical assault to keep you from leaving.
kitcar 14y ago
The one additional (and arguably most powerful) sales tactic you experienced was playing with most human's natural desire for reciprocation - the longer he keeps you at that booth, the more of his time you have consumed, and therefore the higher probability that you will actually buy something. I know I've found myself buying things I don't need in the past because a sales person spent lots of time with me, and I thought "Well, I should reward them in some way for all this time they have given me!", when in reality, that's the whole point of them spending time with me in the first place :)
- dskang 14y ago
  This is a really good point. Guilt is definitely a huge driving force for in-person purchases.
- misterbwong 14y ago
  The book INFLUENCE does a good job of categorizing and explaining these factors. Though a lot of it comes off as common sense, I never realized how widespread these tactics were until I read this book. I highly recommend it. http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Business-Essentials/dp/006124189X http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Busine...
  - aaronpk 14y ago
    This is a good book. Yes, a lot of it comes off as common sense, but it's still worth reading.
  - scovetta 14y ago
    The book The Science of Fear is also a great resource for learning about why people do the things they do. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452295467/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0452295467&linkCode=as2&tag=thearch-20 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452295467/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...
  - tripzilch 14y ago
    This book is great. Enjoyable anecdotes, and I also like his take on the subject: Every chapter, first Cialdini explains a particular phenomenon as a sort of "exploit" or flaw in the human mind, and then discusses how to protect yourself against it. Instead of framing it as ways how to sucker people. The book also has an interesting statistic (IIRC in the chapter about cutting in line for a photo-copier) of people that were first interviewed whether they thought they'd fall for (an abstract explanation of) the trick, who were then (unknowingly, as a set up psych experiment) exposed to a real-life situation playing that exact trick. The percentage of people that were confident they wouldn't fall for it, but then in a real-life situation did, was surprisingly high. I don't remember how high exactly (maybe someone who's also read it can fill me in here?), but it was enough to seriously question my own confidence (in not being affected by certain human flaws), and make an effort in being extra conscious about that even when I rationalize myself to be immune (which seemed to be a common theme in defence tactics). Not so much even to avoid being suckered or allowing people to cut in line, but especially after the chapter on Kitty Genovese type tragedies (aka "the bystander effect"). That chapter btw has a bunch of more specific defence tactics such as singling out people and talking to them directly instead of to a group (even if you feel you're not qualified or whatever to be the hero, you can always say "You, sir, in the blue jacket, you seem strong enough, please jump in the water and save that person!", which may feel cowardly but if it helps breaking the "bystander spell" and someone's life being saved, what the fuck does it matter?)
tzs 14y ago
Even better than talking someone out of money is to get them to pay you without even knowing they are paying. A landlord I rented from once did this with the rent, managing to raise rents with most tenants not noticing. Here's how they did it. Rent was $550/month with a one year lease, which works out to $6600/year. When the least expired, you had the option of going month to month, or signing another lease. Month to month would be $600/month ($7200/year). However, they said, if you'll sign another one year lease, they'll let you keep the old rate ($6600/year), which will be implemented by giving you one month free. That is, you'll pay $0 for January, then $600/month for the remaining 11 months of the year, bringing the total to $6600/year. A year later, when it was time to renew again, they told people rent would probably be going up soon, but if they renewed now for another year, they could avoid the increase and just keep paying $600/month. Since that is what people were already paying, most did not see this as a rent increase. Yet they would be paying $7200 for the year, as opposed to $6600 for the year before--a $600 increase--because this time there was no free month for signing the lease.
- danger 14y ago
  So this strategy is really only effective when you'd like to raise rent by 9.1% per year?
  - anonymoushn 14y ago
    Every two years, it seems.
    - ianferrel 14y ago
      It's still every year, but with a one-year lag on the first increase.
  - SatvikBeri 14y ago
    A 9.1% price increase per year is more than most businesses pull off, and would make a lot of them very happy.
  - FireBeyond 14y ago
jyap 14y ago
This is pretty funny. I was just in SF in June and was waiting around that booth for about 20 minutes while my wife shopped. Overhearing the guy (must have been the same guy Adir) was certainly interesting. It would start off with the free sample push, often targeting older ladies. "Young lady, free sample for you." Then when there was eye contact, "Where are you from?". Then the sales pitch began in full force.
anonymouz 14y ago
> I was masterfully manipulated, and I have little choice but to admit that I received an unexpectedly expensive lesson in the art of selling. How would you be sure it was that masterful? From your description it sounds pretty much like a standard sales pitch. It could just as well be that you're simply rationalizing being talked into spending $100 on something you didn't want to buy. You seem to be thinking "He was so good, he even managed to get me to buy this stuff", but the truth may unfortunately just as well be "Gee, I fall for this kind of stuff much more easily than I would have liked/thought". Doing a postmortem of such a sales-pitch as a target yourself seems to be loaded with subjectivity problems.
- gxs 14y ago
  I have to agree here. By the author's own admission, he does most of his shopping online - which tells me he lacks practice in dealing with salesmen. I worked as a bartender/server at a corporate restaurant when I was in college. You would be surprised how easily people will do something if you just tell them. Me: Order a margarita. Customer: OK. And not to get too judgmental, but this is especially true with the stereotypical internet dweller. For some reason Ive come to notice that people of this ilk are less likely to say no for fear of offending/not pleasing someone.
  - meric 14y ago
    >> Me: Order a margarita. Customer: OK. I'd say "OK" too. One of my problems going into a restaurant is I don't know what the restaurant is good at making; I used to make the mistake of ordering stuff the restaurant hasn't made in weeks and it tastes horrible. If the waiter/waitress was going to recommend me something, its unlikely something the restaurant was especially bad at making, and it would solve part of my problem, and so I'll accept his/her recommendation.
    - robryan 14y ago
      Or situations where you aren't really to fussed about what you drink, it is often better to get something different suggested to you than selecting one of the first few drinks that come to mind when you go up to the bar.
funkaster 14y ago
I was approached by the same sellers in a mall. I got the exact same samples of "dead cells" cream. It was a lady the one that gave me the samples. Very convincing. If it wasn't because I was with my wife at the time, who happens to be a person that does not bend to that kind of selling techniques (I call it her super-power :P) I would've walked with $100 less, at least. One bad thing about this selling technique, which might be effective in selling you stuff, is that right after walking out, you feel bad. You know you did not do the right choice and the probabilities of you walking again to buy more stuff from them or telling your friends how awesome these products are is so small, that they seem to aim to one-sell only. Maybe that's why they're so expensive: they know you're not going back for more. It's a cheap technique and it probably is not looking for anything long term... But in any case, you can always move to another mall or create a new crappy-good-looking product to scam more people.
elliottcarlson 14y ago
While this may not be the case for all of the dead sea related skin care booths (though I know it accounts for a large chunk of them in my area) - these people often have major quotas to reach in exchange for the room & board and small pocket money they get in exchange. A lot of them are brought to the U.S. with the promise of a job lined up and when they get here they are in a small apartment with 5 or 6 others. Just a slight insight as to why they are often so aggressive in their sales pitches.
conover 14y ago
A man named Joe Ades used to do something somewhat similar in Union Square. Apparently he was well known. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCUct4NlxE0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCUct4NlxE0
- chasing 14y ago
  Yeah, I used to watch him do his thing. Seemed like an odd sort of echo of a New York City from a century or two ago...
brk 14y ago
I ran across one of these kiosks recently while walking through a mall in Waikiki with my wife. Same basic pitch (and the dude had a very similar name), including lots of "touching" of your hands, which helps make that connection. From the minute we made eye contact I pretty much knew it was going to be a high-pressure sales tactic. I let him do his spiel and offer us all the tremendous discounts, then thanked him for his time and left.
r00fus 14y ago
As someone hailing from an emerging foreign country, I usually find these kind of encounters very uncomfortable and feel almost allergic to any sales process. The pricepoints ($100) make things much worse. Not sure about you but once I get to 3 $digits, there's an approval step required by my internal auditor even if it's just a "sticker price" that will be talked down. I tend to avoid these situations by all means possible, even if it means taking a less efficient route to my destination.
indiecore 14y ago
I wonder if you could make a game out of trying to regame these guys. Maybe as training? Try to be as obstinate as possible for as long as possible while not getting outright rejected.
- pooriaazimi 14y ago
  That's what I occasionally do (only when they deserve it, of course). Marco Arment did it too a while back, in a Microsoft store: http://www.marco.org/2012/10/26/an-alternate-universe http://www.marco.org/2012/10/26/an-alternate-universe - HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4705299 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4705299
jeremymcanally 14y ago
Reading this and the subsequent comments, I have to ask: am I the only one immune to the this sort of thing? I get approached by these kiosk workers all the time while shopping, and I simply wave and keep walking (possibly reinforcing with a "No, thank you" if they follow me down the path, as they sometimes do). I know it's a high pressure tactic. I know they're selling something that no one actually needs. I know if I give them an inch of attention they'll try to take a mile. It's a well known sales tactic, so I'm puzzled why people continue to get sucked into it. I'm actually kind of confused why this warrants a post-mortem given that I would hope that no one ever duplicates this sort of tactic in a legitimate business. Let the product sell itself, don't "become the customer's friend" in order to push it on them.
- 3825 14y ago
  >I know they're selling something that no one actually needs Every single smartphone maker in the world is listening
- dskang 14y ago
  Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but a lot of these tactics are used in "legitimate" businesses. For example, free lessons (e.g. 20 Ways to Speed Up Your Wordpress Site!) and mailing lists are often used to gain the customer's trust before pitching a service or a product. Becoming the customer's friend is simply a way of gaining the customer's trust.
  - rmrfrmrf 14y ago
    Mailchimp is a great example of this. They have pages upon pages of free guides and information, and even give out email templates for free.
    - apetresc 14y ago
      Those sleazebags.
- bigiain 14y ago
  That'll work fine, until someone comes up with product 70% as food as yours, but with a good salesman pushing it.
intellegacy 14y ago
In my observation, people who believe they are not susceptible to advertising or sales pitches are actually more susceptible than they otherwise would be. If you don't acknowledge you can be influenced, you're less likely to notice when you ARE being influenced. And you don't have to be hit on the head by a sales tactic to be influenced either. It often comes in subtle ways.
- TillE 14y ago
  I can certainly point to instances where I've been seriously influenced by sales tactics, though they're usually situations where I was already looking for a certain type of product or service. But in-person, like this? I'd think most people who live in major cities have become immune to approaches from random people - scammers, beggars, whatever. (Except for people selling the homeless newspaper, they're cool.) If someone requests my attention and they're not asking a normal person question (like directions), I don't engage with them. Sorry. End of interaction, I have no interest in your crap, I have other things to do.
thisone 14y ago
Sales guy tried to embarrass my boyfriend into buying a huge watch once by questioning his manhood. "A real man can carry off a watch like this" I burst out laughing and asked the salesman, in no uncertain terms, if he would like to borrow my tape measure.
- StavrosK 14y ago
  I'm trying to think why you would ask someone if they wanted to borrow your tape measure in uncertain terms, and how you would do it.
  - thisone 14y ago
    I used slightly coarser language because I was getting quite angry at the sales pitch.
    - StavrosK 14y ago
      Ah, I was just amused by the thought of someone saying "perhaps you would like to borrow a measuring device maybe, if and when I felt like lending it to you. Maybe".
  - UnFleshedOne 14y ago
    Presumably to measure the exact dimensions of the afore-questioned manhood. I haven't heard that expression before either. :)
  - jrockway 14y ago
    You bring up a good point and that's that alluding to penis length comparison by mentioning a tape measure is not "no uncertain terms". "No uncertain terms" would mean saying, "I resent that implication. Let's compare the length of our penises."
    - StavrosK 14y ago
      Exactly, but I was afraid it was too pedantic to just point it out :)
lani 14y ago
$100 worth of education, that will remain seared into the brain ? you should get a paper out of it and sell the technique it to retailers ... i see a lot of kahneman/ariely patterns here... how about if you string them up in a nice if-else style decision tree ...
valhallarecords 14y ago
I've talked to this exact same kiosk in the SF Westfield before as well. The saleswoman was very very persuasive. I eventually walked away, and she made me feel like I was a mean person haha.
PaulHoule 14y ago
I had this happen at the mall that's a few blocks from Union Square in SF. For me it was a guy who tried to sell me $800 of tooth whitening services and ultimately sold me two tubes of toothpaste for $20. Once he got me to sit in his chair and talk about myself he hung on tenaciously. It was clear he had authority to mark prices down to 25% of the first price he gave and he'd give you half of that off in cash and give you the other half by doubling the product on you. I was shocked when I walked away then the next guy asked me if I knew about the dead sea salts and I told him "Yeah, some guy put them on my hand in the mall years ago and it felt great but then 15 minutes later my hands felt dried out and awful." You might say the guy from White Science is a brilliant salesperson, but if you look at Yelp you'll see people are generally not happy with the products and services that they get there.
- Mystitat 14y ago
  That's the Westfield. Same mall as in OP's story.
squarecat 14y ago
The author should stay FAR away from car dealers.
- watmough 14y ago
  And stay away from Istanbul too!
  - squarecat 14y ago
    (Not Constantinople)
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
axusgrad 14y ago
I took his advice and Googled "Dead Sea Cosmetics". Apparently one of the WikiLeaks diplomatic cables had details about a company exploiting young Israelis, to take tourist visas and sell these cosmetics in malls. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5519017/WikiLeaks-delves-into-Dead-Sea-sales-scam http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5519017/WikiLeaks-delves-int...
- s_henry_paulson 14y ago
  It goes deeper than that. As soon as I read "skin care products at the mall" I immediately thought, "I wonder if the sales person was from Israel". I honestly didn't think I would see that addressed. Do you remember those Zoom Copters that used to be in every single mall across America? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJyCAZGRpf8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJyCAZGRpf8
  - chimeracoder 14y ago
    Wow, it's not every day that someone can get personal sales lessons from a potential spy! ;-)
- chimeracoder 14y ago
  Hah - years ago, my aunt was stopped in a mall by a young Israeli guy selling these products. She mentioned that she'd been to the Dead Sea on a trip to Jordan and seen them selling similar products for a fraction of the price. The salesman, unfazed, asked her if she was perhaps mistaken and thinking of the 'Red Sea, because the Dead Sea is in in Israel[1]'. Thankfully, my aunt taught history, so she knew her geography well enough to know that he was just trying to pull the wool over her eyes. [1] Which is technically true, since it sits on the border. But I wouldn't tell a Canadian that they were mistaken, because 'Niagara Falls is in the US'.
  - aba_sababa 14y ago
    A bit more than technically true. The Dead Sea is an Israeli icon...
cerebrum 14y ago
How to these sellers learn this stuff? Do they get some instruction or do they just learn by trial and error? Any info on that?
- chubot 14y ago
  A lot of people have said on this thread that it's an Israeli/Middle East thing. I imagine that these salesman been on the other side of it too in their home countries, as customers/prey. Some of them probably get interested in how it's done and just watch the guys who are making money. Or a boss teaches them. I think it is interesting that the Middle East was a historical trade hub and I don't doubt that this culture stems in a large part from that.
aneth4 14y ago
Yelp reviews are fascinating for showing how effective these tactics are. I guess Israelis are as scientific about their sales as their martial arts. http://www.yelp.com/biz/dead-sea-premier-kiosk-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/dead-sea-premier-kiosk-san-francisco
robomartin 14y ago
Your first mistake was to let an Israeli sell to you. That's where you lost brother. For that matter, I'll expand that to Middle-Eastern. I have a lot of friends from Israel and some from other ME countries. A lot of them tend to be very good at selling. I never got to the bottom of it. Maybe it's something in the water? I don't know. I've gone on sales calls with Israeli friends (yes, as an engineer I decided I needed sales training from the best when it came time to sell my own products). We used to play this game that we loosely referred to "Shut-up and sell something". The idea was to see how little you could say and still close a deal. In my early days I tended to talk too much. And, as an engineer, I'd get lost in long explorations of features and even stuff we were planning on doing. I'd loose sales right and left. Then came "shut-up and make a sale". It is amazing how sometimes you can say absolutely nothing. Zero. And make a bigger sale than when you start flapping your jaws. The art is in knowing when to speak and when no to. Hey you! Yes you. The one reading this thinking that it is a pejorative comment. Stop it! It isn't. It's more of a compliment than anything else.
- thisone 14y ago
  I think it comes from living in countries where haggling is just what you do. You get used to the techniques.
- omegant 14y ago
  Please elaborate on when to talk and when to remain silent. East med has been a commerce route for centuries, if not millenniums, is not strange that it is embedded on the culture.
  - robomartin 14y ago
    I don't think that this can be fully communicated in a few lines on a post in HN. Selling is a contact sport. You really need to be there with the customer and develop a feel for how things are going. For example, I've had sales calls where it makes complete sense to say very little and force yourself to be respectful of what your customer might be saying during the conversation, even if sometimes what they are saying is wrong. I've also had cases where I've had to put one of the people in the room down hard because they'd come off as "experts" when they really didn't know the subject very well. So, you have to forcefully (verbally, I mean) establish yourself as the alpha dog and then the rest of the pack calms down. I've also had cases where not a bit of business was discussed at all. We'd go grab a cup of coffee or lunch talk about all manner of things personal but no business. And then you go back to the office. The next day a purchase order shows-up along with a thank-you email. You can't teach these things in a few hundred words. You have to experience them and, depending on who you are, your personality and your upbringing it could take anywhere from six months to two years to pick it up. Because I spent a good part of my young life in Argentina I picked it up very quickly. Argies are pretty fast. I should also say that I saw this cultural thing play out when it came time for me to hire sales people. I really wanted to focus on engineering so, eventually, I set out to fire myself as a salesman and hire someone in. I must have gone through seven or eight people. Men, women, younger, older, with and without experience. They all sucked. It was frustrating. That all changed when I found this Iranian guy who was hell-bent for selling. He had that middle-eastern drive to make a deal and he delivered. He wasn't super-polished, but he could certainly sell. On more technical sales I'd just tag along to deal with whatever he couldn't handle. Hiring a good sales person has been one of the most difficult experiences in my entrepreneurial career. Most people who call themselves sales-men are order takers. They can grab fish if they jump into the boat. A real salesman knows how to find and catch fish. Huge difference.
ericdykstra 14y ago
If you want information from a salesperson about a product or service without getting into their "selling" mode. Just come up to them and say, right off the bat, "I'm not considering a purchase of this kind for at least 1/3/6 months, but I have a couple of questions about your product." If it's a bad product or bad salesperson, they'll probably end the conversation quickly, because their whole premise is to catch you off guard and convince you to buy something that you never would if you had 30 seconds to search the internet for reviews. If it's a good product and a good salesperson, they'll gladly answer your questions and give you a business card. Then you can verify their claims later, and you have a somewhat-trusted contact that you can go back to. It's a quick way to filter, even if you know you may end up purchasing the product within a couple of days. This tactic is also a way to quickly stop a potential email conversation with a recruiter, while still being able to have them as a connection. "I'm sorry but I'm definitely not changing jobs for at least 6 months, but thank you for reaching out to me," is enough to do this.
- lysol 14y ago
  This is the difference between the two types of salespeople I've encountered when I worked in the auto dealer software industry. The first is the short-term salesman. He's concerned about finding individual sales, and probably moves from dealership to dealership looking for the best commission. The second is the long-term. They're the veterans who've been at the same dealer for 20 years and don't even have to try and sell anymore. They subsist on referrals and existing relationships, treating them well and giving them the actual best product they can sell while also giving the dealer what it needs. Neither is guaranteed to be more or less greedy than the next but the latter is a hell of a lot more likable and doesn't care about the short-term salesguy rat race.
- zevyoura 14y ago
  >This tactic is also a way to quickly stop a potential email conversation with a recruiter, while still being able to have them as a connection. Why do you want random recruiters as connections? This not sarcastic; it's a sincere question.
  - 14y ago
jimmar 14y ago
I went used car shopping two weeks ago. I was genuinely looking for a car, but the social scientist inside of me was equally curious to observe the sales tactics. I understood many of their tactics to try to get me to sell myself the car. But I didn't get one thing: handing me off to several different people when it was obvious I wasn't totally sold on the car I liked best. I'd find myself talking to a new person about the price I'd be willing to pay. Or I'd have the floor manager show me around. And before leaving, the sales manager wanted to introduce me to some random guy I'd never talked to before. Why I would want to meet that guy, I have no idea.
- pja 14y ago
  Something to do with social proof? All these people who suddenly want to be your "friend" affecting your subconscious willingness to do a deal with them? Evangelical churches often do the love-bombing thing too.
  - smsm42 14y ago
    If somebody who I don't know would suddenly eagerly want be my friend, first thing I'd do is to check if my wallet is still where it should be. Next thing I'd consider how rude I'd have to be to get rid of this wacko. I think "I want to sell you a car for the best price that you can pay while also making a little profit" would work much better on me.
- mullingitover 14y ago
  Your first mistake is going to the car dealer without an offer in writing. The trick is to email several dealerships and pit them against each other, so you're only walking in the door when you have the best price available in writing.
  - greyboy 14y ago
    He was looking at used cars, not new. It's a different game. For new cars, I agree with you.
crusso 14y ago
Never make eye contact with mall kiosk workers.
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  Dark glasses and stonewall face. The kiosk phenomenon also makes the entire mall experience extremely unpleasant for me.
coffeedrinker 14y ago
One piece of good advice: "A good deal today will be a good deal tomorrow." Live by that advice and you will always be free to walk away and think about it.
flatline 14y ago
People in the US don't know how to haggle, it's just not part of our culture, so you were done from the second you started talking to him. The first step is learning to walk away from something like this - something that may be nice to have, but that you don't really want. You should have given up when he talked you down to $100 for the lot. Seriously, you didn't need or even want the product, why buy it? There is a decent chance he would have come after you and dropped the price though -- that's the first sign you can start talking seriously about price, everything before that is pure profit for him. And if he didn't chase you down, you're not out anything, and can come by later and see if he'll take a lower offer. I've walked away from vendors like this not once but twice and gotten a price at a quarter of what was originally offered as the lowest possible price. The opportunity to do this kind of bargaining just comes up so rarely, it's hard to get good at it unless you spend time in developing countries. The much harder skill is to be able to do this for something you really want, something you've already made up your mind to purchase. Which is a shame, since this particular skill does come into play all the time in the US, particularly when it comes to big purchases like cars or houses where bargaining is expected. We have a weird culture.
- jakejake 14y ago
  I'd definitely agree that America is not a real haggling culture for day-to-day shopping. But most of us are pretty used to pitchmen wanting our money. This seems like to OP just wanted to be sold on something to observe sales techniques. Had he really never talked to a vendor before? Did he actually forget what he was doing and get caught up in the moment, or was this the outcome he was planning all along? Hard to say.
gergles 14y ago
I just walk off. If anyone follows me through the mall screaming at me (which has happened, at the very same mall listed here!) I immediately go complain to mall management..... who do nothing, because apparently a gimmick kiosk selling $2 bottles of goo for $100 pays them a lot of rent. One mall I went to in semi-rural Ohio had it right -- the kiosks had little boxes taped on the floor around each kiosk, and the hucksters weren't allowed to leave their box. It was easy to go to a mall to shop, not to be yelled at like some kind of third-world bazaar.
- ZoFreX 14y ago
  You come off a teensy bit ignorant and offensive at the end, there.
  - hilko 14y ago
    What's wrong with that if it's true? My experience in poor countries is exactly the same. The shopping experience is horrible, because people are relentlessly trying to sell you things. It's not saying anything about the culture in general, or the people, just the truth about third-world bazaars...
EGreg 14y ago
"With the new number 69 seducing me, my strong “no” quickly changed to a “maybe”, and then to a “yes”. " This is not the first time I was seduced by the number 69. There's something about that number that's seductive. Like how all the cable TV packages are $69. I wonder what it is about that number that is so attractive to everyone in the US -- it doesn't seem to be that way in other countries.
- pja 14y ago
  I honestly can't tell whether this comment is straight or not.
  - czr80 14y ago
    It's not.
  - EGreg 14y ago
    That was the idea :)
- brazzy 14y ago
  It's actually exactly the same in other countries. Strange, but true.
fratis 14y ago
When I worked in a mall, I'd get accosted by these guys on a daily basis (on my way to lunch). I developed the perfect response to their inevitable "Hello, sir! How are you?" "I'm doing great! So well, in fact, that even Dead Sea products couldn't improve my day!"
ajtaylor 14y ago
This happened to me last Christmas! Those guys (it was a woman in my case) are super effective in their techniques. I had absolutely no intention of buying anything as I was walking by. My first mistake was responding to their question as I walked by. My second mistake was not continuing on my way through the rest of the mall. Luckily, I DID manage to get a refund for the products later. I claimed that my wife was allergic to the things I had bought. The sales ladies were skeptical when they say the packages were unopened, but nevertheless I got a full refund - somehow.
tlrobinson 14y ago
Usually I'm immune to mall salespeople, but literally the exact same thing happened to me a couple years ago. Same products, same mall (SF Westfield), same tactics, Israeli salesperson. They've got the formula down to a science, apparently. The only difference was the salesperson was a cute girl and I was single at the time...
- gadders 14y ago
  I had an intern that worked as a "Chugger" [1] once and I asked her (an attractive female) how many people she managed to sign up for direct debits in day and she said "It depends how many silly boys there were around." [1] https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:chugger https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:chugger
  - trhtrsh 14y ago
    Those people (and their employers) are the worst. They stand on the street begging like your average panhandler, but they are FAR more aggressive, making psychological warfare on passersby, and they are basically stealing from the charity recipients they claim to be fundraising to help.
droithomme 14y ago
Good article. $100 is definitely a fair price for a private tutorial session in sales techniques taught by an experienced professional.
chimpinee 14y ago
I used to find it hard to walk past 'chuggers' in the UK (people collecting for charity in the street). I managed it but it was unpleasant. Why? Because I'd have to steel myself into a kind of Beast in order to break free from their psychological tractor beams. I eventually worked out that if they were exploiting basic decency and human contact, that's fine. I'll smile and wave, even reciprocate compliments creatively, and then walk past.
jakejake 14y ago
I'd say the OP was a rather gullible customer. The salesman didn't even have to resort to the next level, which is when they try to make you feel guilty for taking up their time. Or try to make you feel like a cheapskate because you won't buy their product for your child, date, etc.
harel 14y ago
As a former resident of Israel I kinda know those people. They are there to do their 'hit' before settling back to 'normal' life. The brief they get is "sell". There are companies that specialise in getting young folk to the US and Europe to sell those product. They promise them the world and a silly salary. The reality is that the salary doesn't translate to the figures promised unless you actually sell like you life depends on it. So they do just that. The dead sea stuff is just one type of product, manufactured by nondescript factories and arguably not so 'dead sea'. There are others who go door to door selling 'made in china' oil paintings that they claim to be the artist of. Others sell gadgets in malls. Others sell whatever they sell. The techniques are similar and they are controlled by a few companies. There are even ads where they recruit based on having a US tourist visa alone (i.e., work illegaly until caught). This got so worst that the US embassy created a short film warning young Israelis of that scam, and the airports in London will hold any young Israeli coming in on suspicion of being a mall-stall fodder. Sorry for the guy on loosing $100 worth of chemicals that cost the seller about $4 to procure (I know this because, alas, my brother from the same mother has dabbled in this in the past). You've been had buyer of cosmetics. The best way to go about it, and a lesson to future cosmetic buyers as this poster, is that you buy if you initiate the purchase, not if it initiated upon you.
- abuzzooz 14y ago
  I was once in a mall, around noonish, when all of a sudden I saw a group of those Israeli sellers quickly close their two carts and run outside. Turns out that ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) agents were in the mall looking for them. A couple of hours later, they came back and resumed working as if nothing happened.
gsibble 14y ago
Bought the same exact stuff from the same guy at the same mall. Actually works really well. But damn do they have the tactics down.
ww520 14y ago
I guess the ultimate challenge would be to go to a free timeshare vacation and endure the sales pitches there. I've heard people with their mind set on not buying ended up buying the timeshares at the end.
- lesterbuck 14y ago
  I went to one of those time share vacation stays and pitches a long time ago, and the pitch just bounced off. Returning to my home town just after college, one of my high school friends, now selling insurance, suggested we "have lunch." I didn't realize what was happening, but that one bounced off me, and I got a free lunch, too. When I got home, my mother was shocked and told me I should apologize to him. Live and learn... To this day, I still cringe when I see that guy at high school reunions!
janoulle 14y ago
This mirrors my experience with a Deep Sea salesman. Same setup: pop-up stand in a busy mall and I made the mistake of locking eyes with the salesperson. I 'lost' $75 and after a brief period of kicking myself, I couldn't help but marvel at how I was manipulated to buying the creams.
ruswick 14y ago
I find the ease with which people can be manipulated to be fascinating. This individual was far too trusting and lacked adequate discernment or awareness. I buy things based on one tenant: don't trust anyone who attempts to take your money, ever. All commerce is done based on an imbalance of value, and the ability for one party to unilaterally leverage that gulf to make money. Moreover, the customer is diametrically opposed to the salesman. Their goals are antithetical to one another and their objectives are mutually exclusive. The seller wants to take the buyer's money and give them as little value as possible, yielding more lucrative margins; the buyer wants to acquire as much of a commodity as they can for as little money as possible, heightening returned value. A capitalistic society is just a myriad of people trying to take whatever they can from everyone else. Sometimes we forget that.
- ruswick 14y ago
  If you feel the need to down-vote, please explain for the sake of edification.
  - hythloday 14y ago
    All commerce is done based on an imbalance of value, and the ability for one party to unilaterally leverage that gulf to make money. Many people on HN will tell you that the imbalance of value means that if I'm paying $100 for skin products, they must be worth more than $100 to me. There's both a certain element of truth and a certain element of circular reasoning in that. Your comment, though not exactly incorrect, reads tendentiously incomplete to me.
polynomial 14y ago
Oh, I thought this was going to be about Kickstarter.
dave_sullivan 14y ago
That's an interesting story. There's a great book called spin selling that mentions some study where they tried to look at the effectiveness of closing tactics like the ones you saw. They found that for reasonably inexpensive purchases (a $300 camera for example), the hard close can work quite well. But for more expensive, complex purchases, like million dollar software contracts, the hard sell is pretty much the worst thing you can do. For more complex sells, it pays to uncover and explore the true expense associated with a problem and paint a picture of the user continuing with current product (their competitors put them out of business) vs your product (they put their competitors out of business). Just don't break out the calculator, offer the one time only special deal, or do anything else from the school of 24 hour fitness gym membership sales training unless you want to get kicked out of your prospect's office.
languagehacker 14y ago
"I was duped" didn't cover it? Had to make it a homework for one of your MBA classes?
ipince 14y ago
Funny. A few months ago I was subject to the exact same pitch. Everything exactly the same. As I read I thought "wow, these cosmetics companies got this down to a science." Turns out it was the same company, so who knows. The only difference was that my salesman was in fact a woman, a very good looking and flirty woman. At the end of the day I didn't buy anything and I could feel her hatred towards me. Left a bitter taste in my mouth.
alan_cx 14y ago
With out getting too specific, there is a vulnerability the buyer can exploit. The sales man has spent ages with the buyer rolling out his well learned techniques. This is helped if the buyer uses up as much time as he can bare. Which means unless he makes a sale, he has totally wasted his time. Time is money. So, just at the point where he has totalled up his oh so great deal for you, and just as you are about to pay for the items, stop. Turn to the sales man and offer a deal of your own. Two things happen. You have just taken control back of the whole sales routine, which suddenly changes your position completely not least because it refreshes your own sense of control. And second, the sales man is totally set off balance and facing the loss of the sale and his time. You can give a whole load of his patter straight back. "Because you are such a great sales guy, I would hate for you to lose this sale", "This offer of mine is a one time offer, could go home and order this lot much cheaper on line", etc. At that point I start by offering 25%, yes 25%, and seeing where he wants to go. My reasoning for the low percentage is that is sends out a message about how much I value the product, and that despite everything the sales man has said, it hasn't worked. But, I might buy at a value I feel is right for me. Having done all that, the pressure is off you, and you are freed up to make a rational decision, and being back in control makes it much easier to say, "No, thanks, but I'll pass today."
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  At that point I start by offering 25%, yes 25%, and seeing where he wants to go How is this any different than requesting a blowjob in the parking lot to every woman you encounter in the gym or grocery store? Occasionally your insulting offer will work. It will work a very small percentage of the time, and meanwhile, you gain a reputation as an annoying douchebag that will follow you around 100% of the time. I'd rather just take or leave the deal at the asking price, or something reasonably close to it, and get on with my day.
  - chmike 14y ago
    Appart from the fact that the analogy isn't nice, you seem to misunderstand the process of haggeling. I personnaly don't like to haggle or people who try to haggle with me just for the sake of efficiency. But in some places or with some people haggeling it is a must do if you don't want to end the day as a chikken without feathers. In north Africa and Middle Est it is common practice. So in south of France where many north Africans are living, haggling is an expected practice when making deals from person to person. If you are not doing this, then you are considered to be an idiot.
damian2000 14y ago
One of the biggest upsells I ever had launched on me was when purchasing a new car. After signing the purchase agreement they immediately put me into a different office with a stunning looking blonde woman who upsells additional protection products such as 5yr warranty extension, window tint, fabric protection etc. Trying to say no to all of it is extremely difficult at that point.
rizzom5000 14y ago
The Yelp reviews on these kiosks are interesting (dead sea premier kiosk). Lots of one-star ratings and rants about smooth-talking sales people taking money from the, ahem, innocent who are now filing complaints with FTC etc. I had to laugh out loud. It reminds me of this olde English phrase, "If they pay a penie or two pence more for the reddinesse of them..let them looke to that, a foole and his money is soone parted."
yarianluis 14y ago
This story particularly illustrates why I avoid going into places with a selling mentality (most places in malls) and prefer to shop in places with a completely customer-centric perspective (what I call the REI model). One easy way to find such places is to look for lack of pay by commission. REI and Apple are too relevant examples. However a lot of the time even stores that pay based on commission will have a larger customer focus than a sales-pitch focus. Nordstrom is one example that comes readily to mind. In short, be careful where you shop.
kaila 14y ago
I spent many years working in shopping malls, and while I was there I learned a few fun things about the kiosk folks. It's apparently really common for them to only come to the US for the last few months of the year, set up the kiosks in malls, make a bunch of money, and then go back home. I'm not sure why, but Israel seemed to be a really common country of origin. The mall management in the malls I worked in were okay with the aggressive sales tactics (including following after people) from the kiosk people because they made so much money for the mall itself. The best way I learned to deal with the kiosk people was to just not make eye contact and keep walking if they said anything to me. Rude, but effective.
Joeboy 14y ago
On a bit of a tangent, if anybody's ever wondered why innocent people would incriminate themselves under questioning by the police, bear in mind that the police have much, much more leverage at their disposal than a skin care product salesman.
willhsiung 14y ago
Had a similar experience at Walt Whitman Mall in Huntington, NY (Long Island) when I visited my mom for Thanksgiving a couple of years ago. The lady at the kiosk selling something similar gave me a sample and pestered me to buy a package. Don't remember the excuse I gave for not buying, maybe pointing out I was from out-of-town or just wasn't interested. Haven't had any problems with other mall kiosks with such sales pitches, so it appears those selling "Dead Sea skin care" products may be in some network where vendors are given a consistent method of selling.
DigitalSea 14y ago
These Dead Sea Costmetic stalls must be everywhere. The same kind of cosmetic stalls are very prevalent in shopping centres here in Australia. They employ people with French accents usually and well, I think someone trying to sell you something in an accent also helps brainwash you into a purchase. The calculator part of this story gave me a chuckle. For those who have been to Bali before (well any part of Indonesia, Thailand and those kinds of countries) bartering is in their blood and they too employ the same techniques using a calculator to sell you stuff.
ari_ 14y ago
Here's a very easy way to get out of a Dead Sea cosmetics selling pitch: Say: "shalom, ani merusut haHagira, efshar lirot et Ashrat HaAvoda Shelca?" Translates as: Hello, I'm from Immigration, can I see your work visa? Also in the USA there's no such thing as No Refunds No Exchanges - if you pay for something by credit card you have extensive consumer rights regardless of the merchant's policies. Finally, the real reason these sales pitches work so well is they MAKE SKIN CONTACT - and there's something about the actual physical touching that makes the sale a lot easier.
olleicua 14y ago
Consumers are so stupid. Do you really have such little sense of self worth that you'll let yourself be scammed like that?

282 points by dskang 14y ago

We had a skin-care salesgirl parked outside one of the Apple stores here in Austin. They really will try almost every trick in the book short of actual physical assault to keep you from leaving.

kitcar 14y ago

The one additional (and arguably most powerful) sales tactic you experienced was playing with most human's natural desire for reciprocation - the longer he keeps you at that booth, the more of his time you have consumed, and therefore the higher probability that you will actually buy something. I know I've found myself buying things I don't need in the past because a sales person spent lots of time with me, and I thought "Well, I should reward them in some way for all this time they have given me!", when in reality, that's the whole point of them spending time with me in the first place :)

dskang 14y ago
This is a really good point. Guilt is definitely a huge driving force for in-person purchases.
misterbwong 14y ago
The book INFLUENCE does a good job of categorizing and explaining these factors. Though a lot of it comes off as common sense, I never realized how widespread these tactics were until I read this book. I highly recommend it. http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Business-Essentials/dp/006124189X http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Busine...
- aaronpk 14y ago
  This is a good book. Yes, a lot of it comes off as common sense, but it's still worth reading.
- scovetta 14y ago
  The book The Science of Fear is also a great resource for learning about why people do the things they do. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452295467/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0452295467&linkCode=as2&tag=thearch-20 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452295467/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...
- tripzilch 14y ago
  This book is great. Enjoyable anecdotes, and I also like his take on the subject: Every chapter, first Cialdini explains a particular phenomenon as a sort of "exploit" or flaw in the human mind, and then discusses how to protect yourself against it. Instead of framing it as ways how to sucker people. The book also has an interesting statistic (IIRC in the chapter about cutting in line for a photo-copier) of people that were first interviewed whether they thought they'd fall for (an abstract explanation of) the trick, who were then (unknowingly, as a set up psych experiment) exposed to a real-life situation playing that exact trick. The percentage of people that were confident they wouldn't fall for it, but then in a real-life situation did, was surprisingly high. I don't remember how high exactly (maybe someone who's also read it can fill me in here?), but it was enough to seriously question my own confidence (in not being affected by certain human flaws), and make an effort in being extra conscious about that even when I rationalize myself to be immune (which seemed to be a common theme in defence tactics). Not so much even to avoid being suckered or allowing people to cut in line, but especially after the chapter on Kitty Genovese type tragedies (aka "the bystander effect"). That chapter btw has a bunch of more specific defence tactics such as singling out people and talking to them directly instead of to a group (even if you feel you're not qualified or whatever to be the hero, you can always say "You, sir, in the blue jacket, you seem strong enough, please jump in the water and save that person!", which may feel cowardly but if it helps breaking the "bystander spell" and someone's life being saved, what the fuck does it matter?)

tzs 14y ago

Even better than talking someone out of money is to get them to pay you without even knowing they are paying. A landlord I rented from once did this with the rent, managing to raise rents with most tenants not noticing. Here's how they did it. Rent was $550/month with a one year lease, which works out to $6600/year. When the least expired, you had the option of going month to month, or signing another lease. Month to month would be $600/month ($7200/year). However, they said, if you'll sign another one year lease, they'll let you keep the old rate ($6600/year), which will be implemented by giving you one month free. That is, you'll pay $0 for January, then $600/month for the remaining 11 months of the year, bringing the total to $6600/year. A year later, when it was time to renew again, they told people rent would probably be going up soon, but if they renewed now for another year, they could avoid the increase and just keep paying $600/month. Since that is what people were already paying, most did not see this as a rent increase. Yet they would be paying $7200 for the year, as opposed to $6600 for the year before--a $600 increase--because this time there was no free month for signing the lease.

danger 14y ago
So this strategy is really only effective when you'd like to raise rent by 9.1% per year?
- anonymoushn 14y ago
  Every two years, it seems.
  - ianferrel 14y ago
    It's still every year, but with a one-year lag on the first increase.
- SatvikBeri 14y ago
  A 9.1% price increase per year is more than most businesses pull off, and would make a lot of them very happy.
- FireBeyond 14y ago

jyap 14y ago

This is pretty funny. I was just in SF in June and was waiting around that booth for about 20 minutes while my wife shopped. Overhearing the guy (must have been the same guy Adir) was certainly interesting. It would start off with the free sample push, often targeting older ladies. "Young lady, free sample for you." Then when there was eye contact, "Where are you from?". Then the sales pitch began in full force.

anonymouz 14y ago

> I was masterfully manipulated, and I have little choice but to admit that I received an unexpectedly expensive lesson in the art of selling. How would you be sure it was that masterful? From your description it sounds pretty much like a standard sales pitch. It could just as well be that you're simply rationalizing being talked into spending $100 on something you didn't want to buy. You seem to be thinking "He was so good, he even managed to get me to buy this stuff", but the truth may unfortunately just as well be "Gee, I fall for this kind of stuff much more easily than I would have liked/thought". Doing a postmortem of such a sales-pitch as a target yourself seems to be loaded with subjectivity problems.

gxs 14y ago
I have to agree here. By the author's own admission, he does most of his shopping online - which tells me he lacks practice in dealing with salesmen. I worked as a bartender/server at a corporate restaurant when I was in college. You would be surprised how easily people will do something if you just tell them. Me: Order a margarita. Customer: OK. And not to get too judgmental, but this is especially true with the stereotypical internet dweller. For some reason Ive come to notice that people of this ilk are less likely to say no for fear of offending/not pleasing someone.
- meric 14y ago
  >> Me: Order a margarita. Customer: OK. I'd say "OK" too. One of my problems going into a restaurant is I don't know what the restaurant is good at making; I used to make the mistake of ordering stuff the restaurant hasn't made in weeks and it tastes horrible. If the waiter/waitress was going to recommend me something, its unlikely something the restaurant was especially bad at making, and it would solve part of my problem, and so I'll accept his/her recommendation.
  - robryan 14y ago
    Or situations where you aren't really to fussed about what you drink, it is often better to get something different suggested to you than selecting one of the first few drinks that come to mind when you go up to the bar.

funkaster 14y ago

I was approached by the same sellers in a mall. I got the exact same samples of "dead cells" cream. It was a lady the one that gave me the samples. Very convincing. If it wasn't because I was with my wife at the time, who happens to be a person that does not bend to that kind of selling techniques (I call it her super-power :P) I would've walked with $100 less, at least. One bad thing about this selling technique, which might be effective in selling you stuff, is that right after walking out, you feel bad. You know you did not do the right choice and the probabilities of you walking again to buy more stuff from them or telling your friends how awesome these products are is so small, that they seem to aim to one-sell only. Maybe that's why they're so expensive: they know you're not going back for more. It's a cheap technique and it probably is not looking for anything long term... But in any case, you can always move to another mall or create a new crappy-good-looking product to scam more people.

elliottcarlson 14y ago

While this may not be the case for all of the dead sea related skin care booths (though I know it accounts for a large chunk of them in my area) - these people often have major quotas to reach in exchange for the room & board and small pocket money they get in exchange. A lot of them are brought to the U.S. with the promise of a job lined up and when they get here they are in a small apartment with 5 or 6 others. Just a slight insight as to why they are often so aggressive in their sales pitches.

conover 14y ago

A man named Joe Ades used to do something somewhat similar in Union Square. Apparently he was well known. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCUct4NlxE0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCUct4NlxE0

chasing 14y ago
Yeah, I used to watch him do his thing. Seemed like an odd sort of echo of a New York City from a century or two ago...

brk 14y ago

I ran across one of these kiosks recently while walking through a mall in Waikiki with my wife. Same basic pitch (and the dude had a very similar name), including lots of "touching" of your hands, which helps make that connection. From the minute we made eye contact I pretty much knew it was going to be a high-pressure sales tactic. I let him do his spiel and offer us all the tremendous discounts, then thanked him for his time and left.

r00fus 14y ago

As someone hailing from an emerging foreign country, I usually find these kind of encounters very uncomfortable and feel almost allergic to any sales process. The pricepoints ($100) make things much worse. Not sure about you but once I get to 3 $digits, there's an approval step required by my internal auditor even if it's just a "sticker price" that will be talked down. I tend to avoid these situations by all means possible, even if it means taking a less efficient route to my destination.

indiecore 14y ago

I wonder if you could make a game out of trying to regame these guys. Maybe as training? Try to be as obstinate as possible for as long as possible while not getting outright rejected.

pooriaazimi 14y ago
That's what I occasionally do (only when they deserve it, of course). Marco Arment did it too a while back, in a Microsoft store: http://www.marco.org/2012/10/26/an-alternate-universe http://www.marco.org/2012/10/26/an-alternate-universe - HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4705299 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4705299

jeremymcanally 14y ago

Reading this and the subsequent comments, I have to ask: am I the only one immune to the this sort of thing? I get approached by these kiosk workers all the time while shopping, and I simply wave and keep walking (possibly reinforcing with a "No, thank you" if they follow me down the path, as they sometimes do). I know it's a high pressure tactic. I know they're selling something that no one actually needs. I know if I give them an inch of attention they'll try to take a mile. It's a well known sales tactic, so I'm puzzled why people continue to get sucked into it. I'm actually kind of confused why this warrants a post-mortem given that I would hope that no one ever duplicates this sort of tactic in a legitimate business. Let the product sell itself, don't "become the customer's friend" in order to push it on them.

3825 14y ago
>I know they're selling something that no one actually needs Every single smartphone maker in the world is listening
dskang 14y ago
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but a lot of these tactics are used in "legitimate" businesses. For example, free lessons (e.g. 20 Ways to Speed Up Your Wordpress Site!) and mailing lists are often used to gain the customer's trust before pitching a service or a product. Becoming the customer's friend is simply a way of gaining the customer's trust.
- rmrfrmrf 14y ago
  Mailchimp is a great example of this. They have pages upon pages of free guides and information, and even give out email templates for free.
  - apetresc 14y ago
    Those sleazebags.
bigiain 14y ago
That'll work fine, until someone comes up with product 70% as food as yours, but with a good salesman pushing it.

intellegacy 14y ago

In my observation, people who believe they are not susceptible to advertising or sales pitches are actually more susceptible than they otherwise would be. If you don't acknowledge you can be influenced, you're less likely to notice when you ARE being influenced. And you don't have to be hit on the head by a sales tactic to be influenced either. It often comes in subtle ways.

TillE 14y ago
I can certainly point to instances where I've been seriously influenced by sales tactics, though they're usually situations where I was already looking for a certain type of product or service. But in-person, like this? I'd think most people who live in major cities have become immune to approaches from random people - scammers, beggars, whatever. (Except for people selling the homeless newspaper, they're cool.) If someone requests my attention and they're not asking a normal person question (like directions), I don't engage with them. Sorry. End of interaction, I have no interest in your crap, I have other things to do.

thisone 14y ago

Sales guy tried to embarrass my boyfriend into buying a huge watch once by questioning his manhood. "A real man can carry off a watch like this" I burst out laughing and asked the salesman, in no uncertain terms, if he would like to borrow my tape measure.

StavrosK 14y ago
I'm trying to think why you would ask someone if they wanted to borrow your tape measure in uncertain terms, and how you would do it.
- thisone 14y ago
  I used slightly coarser language because I was getting quite angry at the sales pitch.
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    Ah, I was just amused by the thought of someone saying "perhaps you would like to borrow a measuring device maybe, if and when I felt like lending it to you. Maybe".
- UnFleshedOne 14y ago
  Presumably to measure the exact dimensions of the afore-questioned manhood. I haven't heard that expression before either. :)
- jrockway 14y ago
  You bring up a good point and that's that alluding to penis length comparison by mentioning a tape measure is not "no uncertain terms". "No uncertain terms" would mean saying, "I resent that implication. Let's compare the length of our penises."
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    Exactly, but I was afraid it was too pedantic to just point it out :)

lani 14y ago

$100 worth of education, that will remain seared into the brain ? you should get a paper out of it and sell the technique it to retailers ... i see a lot of kahneman/ariely patterns here... how about if you string them up in a nice if-else style decision tree ...

valhallarecords 14y ago

I've talked to this exact same kiosk in the SF Westfield before as well. The saleswoman was very very persuasive. I eventually walked away, and she made me feel like I was a mean person haha.

PaulHoule 14y ago

I had this happen at the mall that's a few blocks from Union Square in SF. For me it was a guy who tried to sell me $800 of tooth whitening services and ultimately sold me two tubes of toothpaste for $20. Once he got me to sit in his chair and talk about myself he hung on tenaciously. It was clear he had authority to mark prices down to 25% of the first price he gave and he'd give you half of that off in cash and give you the other half by doubling the product on you. I was shocked when I walked away then the next guy asked me if I knew about the dead sea salts and I told him "Yeah, some guy put them on my hand in the mall years ago and it felt great but then 15 minutes later my hands felt dried out and awful." You might say the guy from White Science is a brilliant salesperson, but if you look at Yelp you'll see people are generally not happy with the products and services that they get there.

Mystitat 14y ago
That's the Westfield. Same mall as in OP's story.

squarecat 14y ago

The author should stay FAR away from car dealers.

watmough 14y ago
And stay away from Istanbul too!
- squarecat 14y ago
  (Not Constantinople)

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

axusgrad 14y ago

I took his advice and Googled "Dead Sea Cosmetics". Apparently one of the WikiLeaks diplomatic cables had details about a company exploiting young Israelis, to take tourist visas and sell these cosmetics in malls. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5519017/WikiLeaks-delves-into-Dead-Sea-sales-scam http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5519017/WikiLeaks-delves-int...

s_henry_paulson 14y ago
It goes deeper than that. As soon as I read "skin care products at the mall" I immediately thought, "I wonder if the sales person was from Israel". I honestly didn't think I would see that addressed. Do you remember those Zoom Copters that used to be in every single mall across America? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJyCAZGRpf8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJyCAZGRpf8
- chimeracoder 14y ago
  Wow, it's not every day that someone can get personal sales lessons from a potential spy! ;-)
chimeracoder 14y ago
Hah - years ago, my aunt was stopped in a mall by a young Israeli guy selling these products. She mentioned that she'd been to the Dead Sea on a trip to Jordan and seen them selling similar products for a fraction of the price. The salesman, unfazed, asked her if she was perhaps mistaken and thinking of the 'Red Sea, because the Dead Sea is in in Israel[1]'. Thankfully, my aunt taught history, so she knew her geography well enough to know that he was just trying to pull the wool over her eyes. [1] Which is technically true, since it sits on the border. But I wouldn't tell a Canadian that they were mistaken, because 'Niagara Falls is in the US'.
- aba_sababa 14y ago
  A bit more than technically true. The Dead Sea is an Israeli icon...

cerebrum 14y ago

How to these sellers learn this stuff? Do they get some instruction or do they just learn by trial and error? Any info on that?

chubot 14y ago
A lot of people have said on this thread that it's an Israeli/Middle East thing. I imagine that these salesman been on the other side of it too in their home countries, as customers/prey. Some of them probably get interested in how it's done and just watch the guys who are making money. Or a boss teaches them. I think it is interesting that the Middle East was a historical trade hub and I don't doubt that this culture stems in a large part from that.

aneth4 14y ago

Yelp reviews are fascinating for showing how effective these tactics are. I guess Israelis are as scientific about their sales as their martial arts. http://www.yelp.com/biz/dead-sea-premier-kiosk-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/dead-sea-premier-kiosk-san-francisco

robomartin 14y ago

Your first mistake was to let an Israeli sell to you. That's where you lost brother. For that matter, I'll expand that to Middle-Eastern. I have a lot of friends from Israel and some from other ME countries. A lot of them tend to be very good at selling. I never got to the bottom of it. Maybe it's something in the water? I don't know. I've gone on sales calls with Israeli friends (yes, as an engineer I decided I needed sales training from the best when it came time to sell my own products). We used to play this game that we loosely referred to "Shut-up and sell something". The idea was to see how little you could say and still close a deal. In my early days I tended to talk too much. And, as an engineer, I'd get lost in long explorations of features and even stuff we were planning on doing. I'd loose sales right and left. Then came "shut-up and make a sale". It is amazing how sometimes you can say absolutely nothing. Zero. And make a bigger sale than when you start flapping your jaws. The art is in knowing when to speak and when no to. Hey you! Yes you. The one reading this thinking that it is a pejorative comment. Stop it! It isn't. It's more of a compliment than anything else.

thisone 14y ago
I think it comes from living in countries where haggling is just what you do. You get used to the techniques.
omegant 14y ago
Please elaborate on when to talk and when to remain silent. East med has been a commerce route for centuries, if not millenniums, is not strange that it is embedded on the culture.
- robomartin 14y ago
  I don't think that this can be fully communicated in a few lines on a post in HN. Selling is a contact sport. You really need to be there with the customer and develop a feel for how things are going. For example, I've had sales calls where it makes complete sense to say very little and force yourself to be respectful of what your customer might be saying during the conversation, even if sometimes what they are saying is wrong. I've also had cases where I've had to put one of the people in the room down hard because they'd come off as "experts" when they really didn't know the subject very well. So, you have to forcefully (verbally, I mean) establish yourself as the alpha dog and then the rest of the pack calms down. I've also had cases where not a bit of business was discussed at all. We'd go grab a cup of coffee or lunch talk about all manner of things personal but no business. And then you go back to the office. The next day a purchase order shows-up along with a thank-you email. You can't teach these things in a few hundred words. You have to experience them and, depending on who you are, your personality and your upbringing it could take anywhere from six months to two years to pick it up. Because I spent a good part of my young life in Argentina I picked it up very quickly. Argies are pretty fast. I should also say that I saw this cultural thing play out when it came time for me to hire sales people. I really wanted to focus on engineering so, eventually, I set out to fire myself as a salesman and hire someone in. I must have gone through seven or eight people. Men, women, younger, older, with and without experience. They all sucked. It was frustrating. That all changed when I found this Iranian guy who was hell-bent for selling. He had that middle-eastern drive to make a deal and he delivered. He wasn't super-polished, but he could certainly sell. On more technical sales I'd just tag along to deal with whatever he couldn't handle. Hiring a good sales person has been one of the most difficult experiences in my entrepreneurial career. Most people who call themselves sales-men are order takers. They can grab fish if they jump into the boat. A real salesman knows how to find and catch fish. Huge difference.

ericdykstra 14y ago

If you want information from a salesperson about a product or service without getting into their "selling" mode. Just come up to them and say, right off the bat, "I'm not considering a purchase of this kind for at least 1/3/6 months, but I have a couple of questions about your product." If it's a bad product or bad salesperson, they'll probably end the conversation quickly, because their whole premise is to catch you off guard and convince you to buy something that you never would if you had 30 seconds to search the internet for reviews. If it's a good product and a good salesperson, they'll gladly answer your questions and give you a business card. Then you can verify their claims later, and you have a somewhat-trusted contact that you can go back to. It's a quick way to filter, even if you know you may end up purchasing the product within a couple of days. This tactic is also a way to quickly stop a potential email conversation with a recruiter, while still being able to have them as a connection. "I'm sorry but I'm definitely not changing jobs for at least 6 months, but thank you for reaching out to me," is enough to do this.

lysol 14y ago
This is the difference between the two types of salespeople I've encountered when I worked in the auto dealer software industry. The first is the short-term salesman. He's concerned about finding individual sales, and probably moves from dealership to dealership looking for the best commission. The second is the long-term. They're the veterans who've been at the same dealer for 20 years and don't even have to try and sell anymore. They subsist on referrals and existing relationships, treating them well and giving them the actual best product they can sell while also giving the dealer what it needs. Neither is guaranteed to be more or less greedy than the next but the latter is a hell of a lot more likable and doesn't care about the short-term salesguy rat race.
zevyoura 14y ago
>This tactic is also a way to quickly stop a potential email conversation with a recruiter, while still being able to have them as a connection. Why do you want random recruiters as connections? This not sarcastic; it's a sincere question.
- 14y ago

jimmar 14y ago

I went used car shopping two weeks ago. I was genuinely looking for a car, but the social scientist inside of me was equally curious to observe the sales tactics. I understood many of their tactics to try to get me to sell myself the car. But I didn't get one thing: handing me off to several different people when it was obvious I wasn't totally sold on the car I liked best. I'd find myself talking to a new person about the price I'd be willing to pay. Or I'd have the floor manager show me around. And before leaving, the sales manager wanted to introduce me to some random guy I'd never talked to before. Why I would want to meet that guy, I have no idea.

pja 14y ago
Something to do with social proof? All these people who suddenly want to be your "friend" affecting your subconscious willingness to do a deal with them? Evangelical churches often do the love-bombing thing too.
- smsm42 14y ago
  If somebody who I don't know would suddenly eagerly want be my friend, first thing I'd do is to check if my wallet is still where it should be. Next thing I'd consider how rude I'd have to be to get rid of this wacko. I think "I want to sell you a car for the best price that you can pay while also making a little profit" would work much better on me.
mullingitover 14y ago
Your first mistake is going to the car dealer without an offer in writing. The trick is to email several dealerships and pit them against each other, so you're only walking in the door when you have the best price available in writing.
- greyboy 14y ago
  He was looking at used cars, not new. It's a different game. For new cars, I agree with you.

crusso 14y ago

Never make eye contact with mall kiosk workers.

dredmorbius 14y ago
Dark glasses and stonewall face. The kiosk phenomenon also makes the entire mall experience extremely unpleasant for me.

coffeedrinker 14y ago

One piece of good advice: "A good deal today will be a good deal tomorrow." Live by that advice and you will always be free to walk away and think about it.

flatline 14y ago

People in the US don't know how to haggle, it's just not part of our culture, so you were done from the second you started talking to him. The first step is learning to walk away from something like this - something that may be nice to have, but that you don't really want. You should have given up when he talked you down to $100 for the lot. Seriously, you didn't need or even want the product, why buy it? There is a decent chance he would have come after you and dropped the price though -- that's the first sign you can start talking seriously about price, everything before that is pure profit for him. And if he didn't chase you down, you're not out anything, and can come by later and see if he'll take a lower offer. I've walked away from vendors like this not once but twice and gotten a price at a quarter of what was originally offered as the lowest possible price. The opportunity to do this kind of bargaining just comes up so rarely, it's hard to get good at it unless you spend time in developing countries. The much harder skill is to be able to do this for something you really want, something you've already made up your mind to purchase. Which is a shame, since this particular skill does come into play all the time in the US, particularly when it comes to big purchases like cars or houses where bargaining is expected. We have a weird culture.

jakejake 14y ago
I'd definitely agree that America is not a real haggling culture for day-to-day shopping. But most of us are pretty used to pitchmen wanting our money. This seems like to OP just wanted to be sold on something to observe sales techniques. Had he really never talked to a vendor before? Did he actually forget what he was doing and get caught up in the moment, or was this the outcome he was planning all along? Hard to say.

gergles 14y ago

I just walk off. If anyone follows me through the mall screaming at me (which has happened, at the very same mall listed here!) I immediately go complain to mall management..... who do nothing, because apparently a gimmick kiosk selling $2 bottles of goo for $100 pays them a lot of rent. One mall I went to in semi-rural Ohio had it right -- the kiosks had little boxes taped on the floor around each kiosk, and the hucksters weren't allowed to leave their box. It was easy to go to a mall to shop, not to be yelled at like some kind of third-world bazaar.

ZoFreX 14y ago
You come off a teensy bit ignorant and offensive at the end, there.
- hilko 14y ago
  What's wrong with that if it's true? My experience in poor countries is exactly the same. The shopping experience is horrible, because people are relentlessly trying to sell you things. It's not saying anything about the culture in general, or the people, just the truth about third-world bazaars...

EGreg 14y ago

"With the new number 69 seducing me, my strong “no” quickly changed to a “maybe”, and then to a “yes”. " This is not the first time I was seduced by the number 69. There's something about that number that's seductive. Like how all the cable TV packages are $69. I wonder what it is about that number that is so attractive to everyone in the US -- it doesn't seem to be that way in other countries.

pja 14y ago
I honestly can't tell whether this comment is straight or not.
- czr80 14y ago
  It's not.
- EGreg 14y ago
  That was the idea :)
brazzy 14y ago
It's actually exactly the same in other countries. Strange, but true.

fratis 14y ago

When I worked in a mall, I'd get accosted by these guys on a daily basis (on my way to lunch). I developed the perfect response to their inevitable "Hello, sir! How are you?" "I'm doing great! So well, in fact, that even Dead Sea products couldn't improve my day!"

ajtaylor 14y ago

This happened to me last Christmas! Those guys (it was a woman in my case) are super effective in their techniques. I had absolutely no intention of buying anything as I was walking by. My first mistake was responding to their question as I walked by. My second mistake was not continuing on my way through the rest of the mall. Luckily, I DID manage to get a refund for the products later. I claimed that my wife was allergic to the things I had bought. The sales ladies were skeptical when they say the packages were unopened, but nevertheless I got a full refund - somehow.

tlrobinson 14y ago

Usually I'm immune to mall salespeople, but literally the exact same thing happened to me a couple years ago. Same products, same mall (SF Westfield), same tactics, Israeli salesperson. They've got the formula down to a science, apparently. The only difference was the salesperson was a cute girl and I was single at the time...

gadders 14y ago
I had an intern that worked as a "Chugger" [1] once and I asked her (an attractive female) how many people she managed to sign up for direct debits in day and she said "It depends how many silly boys there were around." [1] https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:chugger https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:chugger
- trhtrsh 14y ago
  Those people (and their employers) are the worst. They stand on the street begging like your average panhandler, but they are FAR more aggressive, making psychological warfare on passersby, and they are basically stealing from the charity recipients they claim to be fundraising to help.

droithomme 14y ago

Good article. $100 is definitely a fair price for a private tutorial session in sales techniques taught by an experienced professional.

chimpinee 14y ago

I used to find it hard to walk past 'chuggers' in the UK (people collecting for charity in the street). I managed it but it was unpleasant. Why? Because I'd have to steel myself into a kind of Beast in order to break free from their psychological tractor beams. I eventually worked out that if they were exploiting basic decency and human contact, that's fine. I'll smile and wave, even reciprocate compliments creatively, and then walk past.

jakejake 14y ago

I'd say the OP was a rather gullible customer. The salesman didn't even have to resort to the next level, which is when they try to make you feel guilty for taking up their time. Or try to make you feel like a cheapskate because you won't buy their product for your child, date, etc.

harel 14y ago

As a former resident of Israel I kinda know those people. They are there to do their 'hit' before settling back to 'normal' life. The brief they get is "sell". There are companies that specialise in getting young folk to the US and Europe to sell those product. They promise them the world and a silly salary. The reality is that the salary doesn't translate to the figures promised unless you actually sell like you life depends on it. So they do just that. The dead sea stuff is just one type of product, manufactured by nondescript factories and arguably not so 'dead sea'. There are others who go door to door selling 'made in china' oil paintings that they claim to be the artist of. Others sell gadgets in malls. Others sell whatever they sell. The techniques are similar and they are controlled by a few companies. There are even ads where they recruit based on having a US tourist visa alone (i.e., work illegaly until caught). This got so worst that the US embassy created a short film warning young Israelis of that scam, and the airports in London will hold any young Israeli coming in on suspicion of being a mall-stall fodder. Sorry for the guy on loosing $100 worth of chemicals that cost the seller about $4 to procure (I know this because, alas, my brother from the same mother has dabbled in this in the past). You've been had buyer of cosmetics. The best way to go about it, and a lesson to future cosmetic buyers as this poster, is that you buy if you initiate the purchase, not if it initiated upon you.

abuzzooz 14y ago
I was once in a mall, around noonish, when all of a sudden I saw a group of those Israeli sellers quickly close their two carts and run outside. Turns out that ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) agents were in the mall looking for them. A couple of hours later, they came back and resumed working as if nothing happened.

gsibble 14y ago

Bought the same exact stuff from the same guy at the same mall. Actually works really well. But damn do they have the tactics down.

ww520 14y ago

I guess the ultimate challenge would be to go to a free timeshare vacation and endure the sales pitches there. I've heard people with their mind set on not buying ended up buying the timeshares at the end.

lesterbuck 14y ago
I went to one of those time share vacation stays and pitches a long time ago, and the pitch just bounced off. Returning to my home town just after college, one of my high school friends, now selling insurance, suggested we "have lunch." I didn't realize what was happening, but that one bounced off me, and I got a free lunch, too. When I got home, my mother was shocked and told me I should apologize to him. Live and learn... To this day, I still cringe when I see that guy at high school reunions!

janoulle 14y ago

This mirrors my experience with a Deep Sea salesman. Same setup: pop-up stand in a busy mall and I made the mistake of locking eyes with the salesperson. I 'lost' $75 and after a brief period of kicking myself, I couldn't help but marvel at how I was manipulated to buying the creams.

ruswick 14y ago

I find the ease with which people can be manipulated to be fascinating. This individual was far too trusting and lacked adequate discernment or awareness. I buy things based on one tenant: don't trust anyone who attempts to take your money, ever. All commerce is done based on an imbalance of value, and the ability for one party to unilaterally leverage that gulf to make money. Moreover, the customer is diametrically opposed to the salesman. Their goals are antithetical to one another and their objectives are mutually exclusive. The seller wants to take the buyer's money and give them as little value as possible, yielding more lucrative margins; the buyer wants to acquire as much of a commodity as they can for as little money as possible, heightening returned value. A capitalistic society is just a myriad of people trying to take whatever they can from everyone else. Sometimes we forget that.

ruswick 14y ago
If you feel the need to down-vote, please explain for the sake of edification.
- hythloday 14y ago
  All commerce is done based on an imbalance of value, and the ability for one party to unilaterally leverage that gulf to make money. Many people on HN will tell you that the imbalance of value means that if I'm paying $100 for skin products, they must be worth more than $100 to me. There's both a certain element of truth and a certain element of circular reasoning in that. Your comment, though not exactly incorrect, reads tendentiously incomplete to me.

polynomial 14y ago

Oh, I thought this was going to be about Kickstarter.

dave_sullivan 14y ago

That's an interesting story. There's a great book called spin selling that mentions some study where they tried to look at the effectiveness of closing tactics like the ones you saw. They found that for reasonably inexpensive purchases (a $300 camera for example), the hard close can work quite well. But for more expensive, complex purchases, like million dollar software contracts, the hard sell is pretty much the worst thing you can do. For more complex sells, it pays to uncover and explore the true expense associated with a problem and paint a picture of the user continuing with current product (their competitors put them out of business) vs your product (they put their competitors out of business). Just don't break out the calculator, offer the one time only special deal, or do anything else from the school of 24 hour fitness gym membership sales training unless you want to get kicked out of your prospect's office.

languagehacker 14y ago

"I was duped" didn't cover it? Had to make it a homework for one of your MBA classes?

ipince 14y ago

Funny. A few months ago I was subject to the exact same pitch. Everything exactly the same. As I read I thought "wow, these cosmetics companies got this down to a science." Turns out it was the same company, so who knows. The only difference was that my salesman was in fact a woman, a very good looking and flirty woman. At the end of the day I didn't buy anything and I could feel her hatred towards me. Left a bitter taste in my mouth.

alan_cx 14y ago

With out getting too specific, there is a vulnerability the buyer can exploit. The sales man has spent ages with the buyer rolling out his well learned techniques. This is helped if the buyer uses up as much time as he can bare. Which means unless he makes a sale, he has totally wasted his time. Time is money. So, just at the point where he has totalled up his oh so great deal for you, and just as you are about to pay for the items, stop. Turn to the sales man and offer a deal of your own. Two things happen. You have just taken control back of the whole sales routine, which suddenly changes your position completely not least because it refreshes your own sense of control. And second, the sales man is totally set off balance and facing the loss of the sale and his time. You can give a whole load of his patter straight back. "Because you are such a great sales guy, I would hate for you to lose this sale", "This offer of mine is a one time offer, could go home and order this lot much cheaper on line", etc. At that point I start by offering 25%, yes 25%, and seeing where he wants to go. My reasoning for the low percentage is that is sends out a message about how much I value the product, and that despite everything the sales man has said, it hasn't worked. But, I might buy at a value I feel is right for me. Having done all that, the pressure is off you, and you are freed up to make a rational decision, and being back in control makes it much easier to say, "No, thanks, but I'll pass today."

CamperBob2 14y ago
At that point I start by offering 25%, yes 25%, and seeing where he wants to go How is this any different than requesting a blowjob in the parking lot to every woman you encounter in the gym or grocery store? Occasionally your insulting offer will work. It will work a very small percentage of the time, and meanwhile, you gain a reputation as an annoying douchebag that will follow you around 100% of the time. I'd rather just take or leave the deal at the asking price, or something reasonably close to it, and get on with my day.
- chmike 14y ago
  Appart from the fact that the analogy isn't nice, you seem to misunderstand the process of haggeling. I personnaly don't like to haggle or people who try to haggle with me just for the sake of efficiency. But in some places or with some people haggeling it is a must do if you don't want to end the day as a chikken without feathers. In north Africa and Middle Est it is common practice. So in south of France where many north Africans are living, haggling is an expected practice when making deals from person to person. If you are not doing this, then you are considered to be an idiot.

damian2000 14y ago

One of the biggest upsells I ever had launched on me was when purchasing a new car. After signing the purchase agreement they immediately put me into a different office with a stunning looking blonde woman who upsells additional protection products such as 5yr warranty extension, window tint, fabric protection etc. Trying to say no to all of it is extremely difficult at that point.

rizzom5000 14y ago

The Yelp reviews on these kiosks are interesting (dead sea premier kiosk). Lots of one-star ratings and rants about smooth-talking sales people taking money from the, ahem, innocent who are now filing complaints with FTC etc. I had to laugh out loud. It reminds me of this olde English phrase, "If they pay a penie or two pence more for the reddinesse of them..let them looke to that, a foole and his money is soone parted."

yarianluis 14y ago

This story particularly illustrates why I avoid going into places with a selling mentality (most places in malls) and prefer to shop in places with a completely customer-centric perspective (what I call the REI model). One easy way to find such places is to look for lack of pay by commission. REI and Apple are too relevant examples. However a lot of the time even stores that pay based on commission will have a larger customer focus than a sales-pitch focus. Nordstrom is one example that comes readily to mind. In short, be careful where you shop.

kaila 14y ago

I spent many years working in shopping malls, and while I was there I learned a few fun things about the kiosk folks. It's apparently really common for them to only come to the US for the last few months of the year, set up the kiosks in malls, make a bunch of money, and then go back home. I'm not sure why, but Israel seemed to be a really common country of origin. The mall management in the malls I worked in were okay with the aggressive sales tactics (including following after people) from the kiosk people because they made so much money for the mall itself. The best way I learned to deal with the kiosk people was to just not make eye contact and keep walking if they said anything to me. Rude, but effective.

Joeboy 14y ago

On a bit of a tangent, if anybody's ever wondered why innocent people would incriminate themselves under questioning by the police, bear in mind that the police have much, much more leverage at their disposal than a skin care product salesman.

willhsiung 14y ago

Had a similar experience at Walt Whitman Mall in Huntington, NY (Long Island) when I visited my mom for Thanksgiving a couple of years ago. The lady at the kiosk selling something similar gave me a sample and pestered me to buy a package. Don't remember the excuse I gave for not buying, maybe pointing out I was from out-of-town or just wasn't interested. Haven't had any problems with other mall kiosks with such sales pitches, so it appears those selling "Dead Sea skin care" products may be in some network where vendors are given a consistent method of selling.

DigitalSea 14y ago

These Dead Sea Costmetic stalls must be everywhere. The same kind of cosmetic stalls are very prevalent in shopping centres here in Australia. They employ people with French accents usually and well, I think someone trying to sell you something in an accent also helps brainwash you into a purchase. The calculator part of this story gave me a chuckle. For those who have been to Bali before (well any part of Indonesia, Thailand and those kinds of countries) bartering is in their blood and they too employ the same techniques using a calculator to sell you stuff.

ari_ 14y ago

Here's a very easy way to get out of a Dead Sea cosmetics selling pitch: Say: "shalom, ani merusut haHagira, efshar lirot et Ashrat HaAvoda Shelca?" Translates as: Hello, I'm from Immigration, can I see your work visa? Also in the USA there's no such thing as No Refunds No Exchanges - if you pay for something by credit card you have extensive consumer rights regardless of the merchant's policies. Finally, the real reason these sales pitches work so well is they MAKE SKIN CONTACT - and there's something about the actual physical touching that makes the sale a lot easier.

olleicua 14y ago

Consumers are so stupid. Do you really have such little sense of self worth that you'll let yourself be scammed like that?