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this is a pointer to https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/04/22/waymo-is-not-in-the-vision-zero-toolbox-data https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/04/22/waymo-is-not-in-

by l1n 5mo ago

this is a pointer to https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/04/22/waymo-is-not-in-the-vision-zero-toolbox-data https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/04/22/waymo-is-not-in-the-v... In San Francisco, the vehicles often pull into bike lanes to pick up and drop off passengers — because that’s what they’re programmed to do, according to advocates who’ve asked the company for an explanation. Waymo has told advocates that expecting it to respect bike lanes is “too high a bar” because customers expect to be dropped off in them, said Christopher White, executive director of the San Francisco Bike Coalition. “People always point out that unlike human driven cars, the AVs stop at lights and obey the speed limit. However, they are really only as good and effective and safe as they are programmed to be,” White said. “Waymos pull over into bike lanes all the time for pickups and drop-offs and that’s neither legal nor safe but the companies say that is a normal practice and that’s what customers expect.” Can't find a Waymo article about this, but Lyft and Uber (let alone trad taxis) also do this. I'm not sure that this is a particularly autonomous-car-shaped sin.

davidw 5mo ago
> Can't find a Waymo article about this, but Lyft and Uber (let alone trad taxis) also do this. I'm not sure that this is a particularly autonomous-car-shaped sin. Yeah I think it'd probably actually be easier to prevent Waymo from doing this. Once you change the programming, they all stop doing it.
- wiml 5mo ago
  What that means is that Waymo is intentionally choosing illegal behavior, at a corporate level. Uber/Lyft are merely turning a blind eye to the illegal behavior of their employees... er, "contractors".
jMyles 5mo ago
> Can't find a Waymo article about this, but Lyft and Uber (let alone trad taxis) also do this. I'm not sure that this is a particularly autonomous-car-shaped sin. It depends on expectations. If the pitch is (and, let's face it - it is) that automs will be less violent, then this is a problem. If we're OK with them just adopting the existing levels of misery and death visited upon our communities by cars, then the upside is far less than we've been sold.
- nandomrumber 5mo ago
  Cars are violence now. What next?
- skybrian 5mo ago
  How do you know it’s “violent?” It might not technically be allowed but that doesn’t mean they’re doing it unsafely. There’s quite a difference between violent and illegal and they shouldn’t be confused.
- vlovich123 5mo ago
  A) I see no evidence this is creating death or misery. Autonomous still seems safer. B) even if in this one aspect they remain status quo, overall it would still be an improvement.
  - SpicyLemonZest 5mo ago
    The source article describes an incident where a cyclist was seriously injured after Waymo's cyclist detection system failed while it was parked in a bike lane, allowing the passenger to hit her with the door. I don't think this represents some terrible sin where Waymo executives should all go to prison, but I do think we can reasonably expect and if necessary demand that Waymo take action to prevent similar incidents in the future.
    - sigmar 5mo ago
      >allowing the passenger to hit her with the door. the bar is absurdly high if we're blaming the car manufacturer for mistakes human make after the car stops
    - jmalicki 5mo ago
      If the cyclist was doored by an exiting passenger, would t that imply it should further block the bike lane to increase safety as it is not safe for a bike to pass while a passenger is exiting? If the car door opening is what injuries the cyclist it wasn't really in the bike line very far.
    - 5mo ago
teaearlgraycold 5mo ago
> the vehicles often pull into bike lanes to pick up and drop off passengers FWIW after ~150 Waymo rides I don't think I've had a car pick me up or drop me off in a bike lane. This must depend highly on exactly where you ride to/from.
coin 5mo ago
"it's too hard" should never be an excuse to break the law
- jrowen 5mo ago
  The argument is that "our customers expect this behavior because everyone else does it." Not that they tried to change it and failed.
  - scoofy 5mo ago
    This is as unacceptable as telling people in wheelchairs “you don’t matter, our other customers prefer a bathroom you can’t fit in.”
    - jrowen 5mo ago
      Well, there are a lot of non-ADA-compliant bathrooms out there, for one reason or another. But that's up to inspectors to enforce. If they're letting it slide in human-built businesses then AI-built businesses will hew to that. It's also a lot different with a permanent installation that is verified once than this kind of tragedy-of-the-commons temporary minor abuse of public space.
      - scoofy 5mo ago
        The ADA is enforced by lawsuits — not inspectors — exactly because businesses can’t be trusted to follow the rules that most of their customers don’t like.
        jrowen 5mo ago
        I mean, if it comes to a lawsuit, sure, but the system is designed so that permitting and inspectors catch most of it. If you're trying to build your bathroom under the radar without a permit that's an entirely different analogy. But either way, it is the responsibility of the regulatory body to enforce. As other people have noted, this is not a Waymo problem, they're just following the status quo.
bushbaba 5mo ago
The difference is that Uber/Lyft use external contractors who are liable for their driving. Waymo is directly liable for the driving as they directly own and operate the cars and the driver.
- mothballed 5mo ago
  Seems like a mistake. I wonder if they could farm out liability to homeless people under a financially engineered IC contract 'leasing' a locked down car or similar financial vehicle.
embedding-shape 5mo ago
I think the main context of the article is that this is in London though, where the rule is that you don't do that, and Waymo somehow seem to think that it should be OK anyways: > The Google-owned company, which officially launched its self-driving fleet in London earlier this month, has told cycling campaigners that it is “normal practice” for their taxis to veer into and block cycle lanes > According to the Highway Code, motorists “must not drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a solid white line during its times of operation” or block a bike lane marked by a broken white line “unless it is unavoidable”. Better would be for Waymo to adapt themselves to the locale and instead program it to find safer pickup/dropoff points, rather than blocking and endangering bike traffic.
- svat 5mo ago
  Yes but if you read the article closely, what it's saying is that Waymo, which launched in London earlier this month, told cycling campaigners in San Francisco that it is normal practice (and this is according to the campaigners, not a direct statement from Waymo). The article has a lot of useful information and context, but the headline framing is misleading IMO. The article at least does not suggest any data on whether this is actually happening in London. The closest it gets is "remains to be seen": > “Waymo claims they’re far safer in the US than traditional taxi services. But whether that is still the case on London’s infamously complex, congested and contested streets, remains to be seen.”
- Jensson 5mo ago
  It says that you are allowed to drop off passengers in bike lanes. "Advisory and mandatory cycle lanes, marked by a painted line, can be entered into by taxis and PHVs for pick-up and drop-off at the kerb edge" https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/walking-and-cycling-changes-on-tooley-street/widgets/25156/faqs#question7474 https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/walking-and-cycling-changes-o...

by l1n 5mo ago

davidw 5mo ago

> Can't find a Waymo article about this, but Lyft and Uber (let alone trad taxis) also do this. I'm not sure that this is a particularly autonomous-car-shaped sin. Yeah I think it'd probably actually be easier to prevent Waymo from doing this. Once you change the programming, they all stop doing it.

wiml 5mo ago
What that means is that Waymo is intentionally choosing illegal behavior, at a corporate level. Uber/Lyft are merely turning a blind eye to the illegal behavior of their employees... er, "contractors".

jMyles 5mo ago

> Can't find a Waymo article about this, but Lyft and Uber (let alone trad taxis) also do this. I'm not sure that this is a particularly autonomous-car-shaped sin. It depends on expectations. If the pitch is (and, let's face it - it is) that automs will be less violent, then this is a problem. If we're OK with them just adopting the existing levels of misery and death visited upon our communities by cars, then the upside is far less than we've been sold.

nandomrumber 5mo ago
Cars are violence now. What next?
skybrian 5mo ago
How do you know it’s “violent?” It might not technically be allowed but that doesn’t mean they’re doing it unsafely. There’s quite a difference between violent and illegal and they shouldn’t be confused.
vlovich123 5mo ago
A) I see no evidence this is creating death or misery. Autonomous still seems safer. B) even if in this one aspect they remain status quo, overall it would still be an improvement.
- SpicyLemonZest 5mo ago
  The source article describes an incident where a cyclist was seriously injured after Waymo's cyclist detection system failed while it was parked in a bike lane, allowing the passenger to hit her with the door. I don't think this represents some terrible sin where Waymo executives should all go to prison, but I do think we can reasonably expect and if necessary demand that Waymo take action to prevent similar incidents in the future.
  - sigmar 5mo ago
    >allowing the passenger to hit her with the door. the bar is absurdly high if we're blaming the car manufacturer for mistakes human make after the car stops
  - jmalicki 5mo ago
    If the cyclist was doored by an exiting passenger, would t that imply it should further block the bike lane to increase safety as it is not safe for a bike to pass while a passenger is exiting? If the car door opening is what injuries the cyclist it wasn't really in the bike line very far.
  - 5mo ago

teaearlgraycold 5mo ago

> the vehicles often pull into bike lanes to pick up and drop off passengers FWIW after ~150 Waymo rides I don't think I've had a car pick me up or drop me off in a bike lane. This must depend highly on exactly where you ride to/from.

coin 5mo ago

"it's too hard" should never be an excuse to break the law

jrowen 5mo ago
The argument is that "our customers expect this behavior because everyone else does it." Not that they tried to change it and failed.
- scoofy 5mo ago
  This is as unacceptable as telling people in wheelchairs “you don’t matter, our other customers prefer a bathroom you can’t fit in.”
  - jrowen 5mo ago
    Well, there are a lot of non-ADA-compliant bathrooms out there, for one reason or another. But that's up to inspectors to enforce. If they're letting it slide in human-built businesses then AI-built businesses will hew to that. It's also a lot different with a permanent installation that is verified once than this kind of tragedy-of-the-commons temporary minor abuse of public space.
    - scoofy 5mo ago
      The ADA is enforced by lawsuits — not inspectors — exactly because businesses can’t be trusted to follow the rules that most of their customers don’t like.
      - jrowen 5mo ago
        I mean, if it comes to a lawsuit, sure, but the system is designed so that permitting and inspectors catch most of it. If you're trying to build your bathroom under the radar without a permit that's an entirely different analogy. But either way, it is the responsibility of the regulatory body to enforce. As other people have noted, this is not a Waymo problem, they're just following the status quo.

bushbaba 5mo ago

The difference is that Uber/Lyft use external contractors who are liable for their driving. Waymo is directly liable for the driving as they directly own and operate the cars and the driver.

mothballed 5mo ago
Seems like a mistake. I wonder if they could farm out liability to homeless people under a financially engineered IC contract 'leasing' a locked down car or similar financial vehicle.

embedding-shape 5mo ago

I think the main context of the article is that this is in London though, where the rule is that you don't do that, and Waymo somehow seem to think that it should be OK anyways: > The Google-owned company, which officially launched its self-driving fleet in London earlier this month, has told cycling campaigners that it is “normal practice” for their taxis to veer into and block cycle lanes > According to the Highway Code, motorists “must not drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a solid white line during its times of operation” or block a bike lane marked by a broken white line “unless it is unavoidable”. Better would be for Waymo to adapt themselves to the locale and instead program it to find safer pickup/dropoff points, rather than blocking and endangering bike traffic.

svat 5mo ago
Yes but if you read the article closely, what it's saying is that Waymo, which launched in London earlier this month, told cycling campaigners in San Francisco that it is normal practice (and this is according to the campaigners, not a direct statement from Waymo). The article has a lot of useful information and context, but the headline framing is misleading IMO. The article at least does not suggest any data on whether this is actually happening in London. The closest it gets is "remains to be seen": > “Waymo claims they’re far safer in the US than traditional taxi services. But whether that is still the case on London’s infamously complex, congested and contested streets, remains to be seen.”
Jensson 5mo ago
It says that you are allowed to drop off passengers in bike lanes. "Advisory and mandatory cycle lanes, marked by a painted line, can be entered into by taxis and PHVs for pick-up and drop-off at the kerb edge" https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/walking-and-cycling-changes-on-tooley-street/widgets/25156/faqs#question7474 https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/walking-and-cycling-changes-o...