7 ms·

This is why I'm confused when people say it isn't ready to replace most of the programmer workforce.

lwansbrough 6mo ago
For me, I'll do the engineering work of designing a system, then give it the specific designs and constraints. I'll let it plan out the implementation, then I give it notes if it varies in ways I didn't expect. Once we agree on a solution, that's when I set it free. The frontier models usually do a pretty good job with this work flow at this point.
- m3kw9 6mo ago
  That’s vibe coding and you won’t read more than 20% of the code written that way. You really can’t build complex software that way
  - allajfjwbwkwja 6mo ago
    At least he gets to enjoy doing the remaining 80% of the work in a lovely codebase with foundations written by an LLM.
YesBox 6mo ago
Heh, people like to have someone else to blame.
danparsonson 6mo ago
Yeah that describes most legacy codebases I've worked on XD
Foobar8568 6mo ago
LLM code is higher quality than any codes I have seen in my 20 years in F500. So yeah you need to "guide" it, and ensure that it will not bypass all the security guidance for ex...But at least you are in control, although the cognitive load is much higher as well than just "blind trust of what is delivered". But I can see the carnage with offshoring+LLM, or "most employees", including so call software engineer + LLM.
- thesz 6mo ago
  > LLM code is higher quality than any codes I have seen in my 20 years in F500. "Any codes"?
  - Implicated 6mo ago
    You'll find, at times, that those communicating in a language that's not their primary language will tend to deviate from what one whose it was their primary language might expect. If that's obvious to you than you're just being rude. If it's not obvious to you, then you'll also find this is a common deviance (plural 'code') from those who come from a particular primary language's region. Edit; This got me thinking - what is the grammar/rule around what gets pluralized and what doesn't? How does one know that "code" can refer to a single line of code, a whole file of code, a project, or even the entirety of all code your eyes have ever seen without having to have an s tacked on to the end of it?
    - tsimionescu 6mo ago
      "Codes" as a way to refer to programs/libraries is actually common usage in academia and scientific programming, even by native English speakers. I believe, but am not sure, that it may just be relatively old jargon, before the use of "programs" became more common in the industry. As for the grammar rule, it's the question of whether a word is countable or uncountable. In common industry usage, "code" is an uncountable noun, just like "flour" in cooking (you say 2 lines of code, 1 pound of flour). It's actually pretty common for the same word to have both countable and uncountable versions, with different, though related, meanings. Typically the uncountable version is used with a measure of quantity, while the countable version denotes different kinds (flours - different types of flour; peoples - different groups of people).
      - Implicated 6mo ago
        > Typically the uncountable version is used with a measure of quantity, while the countable version denotes different kinds (flours - different types of flour; peoples - different groups of people). This was very helpful, thank you! (I had just gotten off the phone with Claude learning about countable and uncountable nouns but those additional details you provided should prove quite valuable)
iLoveOncall 6mo ago
Really? Because this perfectly explains why it will never replace them: it needs an exact language listing everything required to function as you expect it. You need code to get it to generate proper code.
- abm53 6mo ago
  I think GP was a joke about the ability of a typical programmer. I certainly read it as one and found it funny.
empath75 6mo ago
If you a) know what you are doing and b) know what an llm is capable of doing, c) can manage multiple llm agents at a time, you can be unbelievably productive. Those skills I think are less common than people assume. You need to be technical, have good communication skills, have big picture vision, be organized, etc. If you are a staff level engineer, you basically feel like you don’t need anyone else. OTOH i have been seeing even fairly technical engineering managers struggle because they can’t get the LLMs to execute because they don’t know how to ask it what to do.
- awinter-py 6mo ago
  it's like that '11 rules for showrunning' doc where you need to operate at a level where you understand the product being made, and the people making it, and their capabilities, in order to make things come out well without touching them directly. (https://okbjgm.weebly.com/uploads/3/1/5/0/31506003/11_laws_of_showrunning_nice_version.pdf https://okbjgm.weebly.com/uploads/3/1/5/0/31506003/11_laws_o...) if you can do every job + parallelize + read fast, and you are only limited by the time it takes to type, claude is remarkable. I'm not superhuman in those ways but in the small domains where I am it has helped a lot; in other domains it has ramped me to 'working prototype' 10x faster than I could have alone, but the quality of output seems questionable and I'm not smart enough to improve it
- jurgenburgen 6mo ago
  > can manage multiple llm agents at a time How is that supposed to work? Humans are notoriously poor at multi-tasking. If you spend all day context switching between agents you’re going to have a bad time.
  - empath75 6mo ago
    I deployed a whole fleet of agents working Jira tickets and PRs a couple of weeks ago. You manage them the way you manage people.
sonofhans 6mo ago
I love that you’re getting straightforward replies to this absolutely sick burn. The blade is so sharp that some people aren’t even feeling it.
jaredklewis 6mo ago
This comment is why I read HN

For me, I'll do the engineering work of designing a system, then give it the specific designs and constraints. I'll let it plan out the implementation, then I give it notes if it varies in ways I didn't expect. Once we agree on a solution, that's when I set it free. The frontier models usually do a pretty good job with this work flow at this point.

m3kw9 6mo ago
That’s vibe coding and you won’t read more than 20% of the code written that way. You really can’t build complex software that way
- allajfjwbwkwja 6mo ago
  At least he gets to enjoy doing the remaining 80% of the work in a lovely codebase with foundations written by an LLM.

YesBox 6mo ago

Heh, people like to have someone else to blame.

danparsonson 6mo ago

Yeah that describes most legacy codebases I've worked on XD

Foobar8568 6mo ago

LLM code is higher quality than any codes I have seen in my 20 years in F500. So yeah you need to "guide" it, and ensure that it will not bypass all the security guidance for ex...But at least you are in control, although the cognitive load is much higher as well than just "blind trust of what is delivered". But I can see the carnage with offshoring+LLM, or "most employees", including so call software engineer + LLM.

thesz 6mo ago
> LLM code is higher quality than any codes I have seen in my 20 years in F500. "Any codes"?
- Implicated 6mo ago
  You'll find, at times, that those communicating in a language that's not their primary language will tend to deviate from what one whose it was their primary language might expect. If that's obvious to you than you're just being rude. If it's not obvious to you, then you'll also find this is a common deviance (plural 'code') from those who come from a particular primary language's region. Edit; This got me thinking - what is the grammar/rule around what gets pluralized and what doesn't? How does one know that "code" can refer to a single line of code, a whole file of code, a project, or even the entirety of all code your eyes have ever seen without having to have an s tacked on to the end of it?
  - tsimionescu 6mo ago
    "Codes" as a way to refer to programs/libraries is actually common usage in academia and scientific programming, even by native English speakers. I believe, but am not sure, that it may just be relatively old jargon, before the use of "programs" became more common in the industry. As for the grammar rule, it's the question of whether a word is countable or uncountable. In common industry usage, "code" is an uncountable noun, just like "flour" in cooking (you say 2 lines of code, 1 pound of flour). It's actually pretty common for the same word to have both countable and uncountable versions, with different, though related, meanings. Typically the uncountable version is used with a measure of quantity, while the countable version denotes different kinds (flours - different types of flour; peoples - different groups of people).
    - Implicated 6mo ago
      > Typically the uncountable version is used with a measure of quantity, while the countable version denotes different kinds (flours - different types of flour; peoples - different groups of people). This was very helpful, thank you! (I had just gotten off the phone with Claude learning about countable and uncountable nouns but those additional details you provided should prove quite valuable)

iLoveOncall 6mo ago

Really? Because this perfectly explains why it will never replace them: it needs an exact language listing everything required to function as you expect it. You need code to get it to generate proper code.

abm53 6mo ago
I think GP was a joke about the ability of a typical programmer. I certainly read it as one and found it funny.

empath75 6mo ago

If you a) know what you are doing and b) know what an llm is capable of doing, c) can manage multiple llm agents at a time, you can be unbelievably productive. Those skills I think are less common than people assume. You need to be technical, have good communication skills, have big picture vision, be organized, etc. If you are a staff level engineer, you basically feel like you don’t need anyone else. OTOH i have been seeing even fairly technical engineering managers struggle because they can’t get the LLMs to execute because they don’t know how to ask it what to do.

awinter-py 6mo ago
it's like that '11 rules for showrunning' doc where you need to operate at a level where you understand the product being made, and the people making it, and their capabilities, in order to make things come out well without touching them directly. (https://okbjgm.weebly.com/uploads/3/1/5/0/31506003/11_laws_of_showrunning_nice_version.pdf https://okbjgm.weebly.com/uploads/3/1/5/0/31506003/11_laws_o...) if you can do every job + parallelize + read fast, and you are only limited by the time it takes to type, claude is remarkable. I'm not superhuman in those ways but in the small domains where I am it has helped a lot; in other domains it has ramped me to 'working prototype' 10x faster than I could have alone, but the quality of output seems questionable and I'm not smart enough to improve it
jurgenburgen 6mo ago
> can manage multiple llm agents at a time How is that supposed to work? Humans are notoriously poor at multi-tasking. If you spend all day context switching between agents you’re going to have a bad time.
- empath75 6mo ago
  I deployed a whole fleet of agents working Jira tickets and PRs a couple of weeks ago. You manage them the way you manage people.

sonofhans 6mo ago

I love that you’re getting straightforward replies to this absolutely sick burn. The blade is so sharp that some people aren’t even feeling it.

jaredklewis 6mo ago

This comment is why I read HN