7 ms·

You're not alone, Kraig911. It's very hard to be a parent in modern society. My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero init

You're not alone, Kraig911. It's very hard to be a parent in modern society. My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way. They say they do, but they rely on us to take the initiative and make social things happen. After dozens of rejections or silence from dozens of them, it's rejection fatigue with the friends...unless they also have kids, in which case we play DnD together when the kids go to bed. Going out to eat? Going on vacations? Sleeping? Your own health? Your finances? Say goodbye to all of that for 5+ years if you have kids, even more if you have a special needs child. And despite all that, we love them and we want to have them, and probably the vast majority would do so again. And we will have our children to keep us young-at-heart, learning, active, and to help us in old age. Many of our child-free friends are going to go through a lot of loneliness when they're old, while we'll have the vibrancy of a family life.

crystal_revenge 7mo ago
> Many of our child-free friends are going to go through a lot of loneliness when they're old I've seen this "kids are insurance against loneliness" logic repeated often, but I don't believe this bares out in reality. I personally know plenty of child-free older couples who remain quite happy and social. I also know plenty of parents whose kids don't speak to them anymore or whose children have lives on the other side of the country/world. Anecdotally the loneliest older people I know are ones who have put it upon their children to keep themselves from loneliness. > And despite all that, we love them and we want to have them As a parent I always find it funny that we need to add this to every statement of frustration of family life (I'm not critiquing you, I also say this every time I mention any frustration about parenting). It is worth recognizing that saying the contrary is fundamentally taboo. I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted"
- fusslo 7mo ago
  My mothers' friends have to fund vacations for their adult children and grand children in order to spend time with them. They wont let her stay at their home. My mother was giddy when my father died; so I have strong boundaries in our relationship. My brother moved to colorado after the service and never returned. I'm not convinced having children is the answer alone. (I say as a childless 35yo)
  - lostlogin 7mo ago
    > They wont let her stay at their home. There are many reasons this could be the case. The internet (and Reddit in particular) is abound with AITA type discussions around boundaries within families.
  - rootusrootus 7mo ago
    Being a parent is orthogonal to being someone people want to spend time with. Unless I knew for sure I was not in the latter group, I wouldn’t use it as a justification for not having kids.
- wisemang 7mo ago
  Indeed. There was a CBC radio episode last year that had parents discussing regrets. It felt weird to hear people saying these things out loud. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/9.6661746 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/9.6661746
- koakuma-chan 7mo ago
  So why do you have children? Can't synthesize a reason?
  - lucyjojo 7mo ago
    have kids because i wanted to. and life is beautiful.
- mothballed 7mo ago
  >I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted" Because there's no point in thinking about it. Your wife will ask if you want to leave, your children will hate you, and society will hate you, it will make you feel depressed, and meanwhile it won't accomplish anything. It's a dialogue only for yourself, once you acknowledge that, it becomes far less challenging to deal with and you can move forward with dealing with challenges in solvable ways.
- iugtmkbdfil834 7mo ago
  << I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted" You can absolutely think it as long as it stops there. There is a reason. At that point in the game, your needs and wants are supposed to be subordinate to those of the kids' long term survival. I could maybe understand this sentiment, oh 50 years ago, when you maybe could plausibly claim you had no idea that child rearing is not exactly easy, but unless a person is almost completely detached from society, it is near impossible to miss the "pregnancy will ruin your life" propaganda. Consequences. They exist. Some are life altering and expected to last a long time.
  - crystal_revenge 7mo ago
    This is a hilariously narrow view of family life. Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between living a life you feel is solely about "paying consequences" or "completely abandoning all responsibility" (which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former) But I do appreciate you providing an object lesson in just how taboo it is to even entertain the thought publicly!
    - iugtmkbdfil834 7mo ago
      You can entertain it. You just did. But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point. << This is a hilariously narrow view of family life. Quite the contrary, it allows for a very broad range of outcomes, because it deals with reality of the human condition. << which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former Everything always is. Why, tomorrow I could quit my job and start a bar in Hawaii. As arguments go, this one was pretty weak. << Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between Why am I getting this feeling that you completely misread what I wrote.
      - rc5150 7mo ago
        "But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point." that's the exact reasoning why parents who complain about how hard it is to be a parent get no sympathy from you. You blew a load in somebody (or had a load blown into you) and another human popped out. That's a choice you made for yourself, nobody forced you to, and there is a big giant swath of people out there who couldn't care less.
- jujube3 7mo ago
  Being able to hook up with random strangers on apps might be fun in your 20s and 30s. When you're old and wrinkly, it's not going to be the same. I hate to say it, but this is especially true for women entering their twilight years. A lot of childless people in our generation are headed to a very sad and lonely future. COVID was exceptionally hard on these people. A lot of the weirdness of the COVID years was just people going crazy in isolation. Trading random stocks, or ordering crazy nonsense off of Amazon. Being alone is literally psychological abuse and a lot of them were subjected to it for months at a time.
  - S_Bear 7mo ago
    And wife and I are both old and wrinkly and happily child free. Childfree people aren't just hedonists.
- tuesdaynight 7mo ago
  About your first point, I understand why it happens, but I get frustrated at these debates nowadays. Both sides cannot talk about their experiences without having to add something that invalidates the other side choice. They cannot fathom that the other side may prefer the disadvantages of their choice instead of the disadvantages of yours. Maybe it's the human condition to try to point out how the other side will regret their choices to validate our life decisions
  - jonmb 7mo ago
    Well said. I appreciate people on both sides that can simply acknowledge having kids is great for some people, and not having them is great for others, and the world is big enough for all of us.
echelon 7mo ago
It's not that being a parent is harder - it's actually easier (excluding the post-WWII American boom years which were a fluke). It's that the floor of being single has risen to stratospheric highs. Being single used to be: boring (no internet, tv, constant dopamine drip. Having kids was an escape from mundane boredom.) Being single used to be: lonely (now we have dating and hookup apps, online games, tons of in-person events - cities are filled with concerts and music festivals, you name it, more Michelin Star restaurants than anyone could visit, etc. etc.) Being a woman used to be: limited choice (now we fortunately have tons of options for women - careers, etc. They can enjoy the same freedoms, fun, and personal investment as men.) Not to mention that parents have all kinds of new social stigmas. Having children used to be: free labor, send them off to do whatever (now you'd be accused of child abuse) Basically, the problem is single life is too good now. We have smartphones, internet, and the economy revolves around the single experience. The minute you have kids, you lose access to the exciting single life that the modern society has built itself around and catered itself to. Society glorifies single life, and the signalling is so strong you know you'll lose it if you have kids. It's not like you have time anyway with the doomscrolling and dopamine addiction.
- estearum 7mo ago
  > It's not that being a parent is harder - it's actually easier (excluding the post-WWII American boom years which were a fluke). Why would it be easier today? You used to just open your door and go let your kids run around and hope they're back before dinner. Absolutely nothing like today's ultracompetitive, ultra-regimented world.
  - iugtmkbdfil834 7mo ago
    This. I know me and all my peers roamed the neighborhood and my wife's life was not that different despite being born on different continents. Doing the same now risks a visit from state child neglect referral, which is enough to give most a pause. Parents seem to get all the risk and less benefits, while getting the stink eye when kid is not behaving properly. In short, I am entirely confused on what would be easier today. If anything, things have gotten exponentially worse.. if you care enough to do it right.
HelloMcFly 7mo ago
> My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way I completely believe that’s been your experience, but want to highlight that his is a difficult asymmetry in these friendships. I in no way mean to imply that the below is the experience your friends had with you, just that the challenges are not one-way. In my own circle, my wife and I have often felt like it was our friends with kids who vanished. We knew they were busy, we kept extending invites or asking for time. Things often didn't work especially as new parents are figuring their lives out, things are changing all the time, etc. We'd meet up here and there, but it was - necessarily - always on their terms. And so of course, our outreach tapered down incrementally but consistently. But I do wonder: do they feel we detached from them, or do they have any inkling that we feel they detached from us? We've discussed it with one couple who we were always closer to, but it doesn't feel an appropriate topic to resurface uninvited at any given moment.
- fleeting900 7mo ago
  Speaking from the other side, but having been on your side for most of my 20s and 30s and felt exactly how you do, they probably do feel you detached from them. Their lives fundamentally changed to the extent that as you say, any gathering necessarily must be on terms that allow them to parent. And the level of last-minute cancellations and apologies increase. And on top of that, they’re just not prioritising reaching out to you. Mainly because parenting occupies 25 hours of most days and they’re exhausted, but they’re also probably assuming that any activity in reach for them, like simply getting coffee at a playground while they try to make sure their kid doesn’t eat too much sand, is not your idea of a fun time. So your outreach tapered down in response, but that is ultimately your choice. The alternative requires you to quite selflessly keep up the outreach and be OK with a lower hit rate, and lean into the fact that you have far, far greater flexibility to meet on their terms than they do to meet on yours. Not doing that is not an unreasonable choice, but they probably miss you and want you to be part of their kids lives. Anyway, thanks for sharing this point of view. It’s a hard situation.
  - HelloMcFly 7mo ago
pino83 7mo ago
> You're not alone, Kraig911. It's very hard to be a parent in modern society. My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way. Similar to what I wrote in the other reply: How far went _your_ initiative to stay in actual contact with them, in a way it's not a boring duty call, but something _actually_ nice? If I have friends with children, sure I'm also interested in them. But if it turns out that these friends have no desire to spend time with _me_ anymore - without any kids involved - and they mostly expect from me that I constantly want to see the kids and "help in any way", well, where do I profit from that friendship?? It often gets quite asymmetrical and boring.
- tasuki 7mo ago
  > But if it turns out that these friends have no desire to spend time with _me_ anymore - without any kids involved See the problem is the kids. You can't quite make them go away that easily. My guess would be your friends would love to spend some time with you but can't, because logistics. > where do I profit from that friendship?? It often gets quite asymmetrical and boring. Friendships are not for profit. If you want profit, start a business.
  - pino83 7mo ago
    > See the problem is the kids. You can't quite make them go away that easily. You can't, sure. You shouldn't at least. But what does it mean to me? It leads to the fact that the friendship is pointless. So why should I take a lot of initiative, when I don't get anything back anymore? For a reason that they've actively decided for (typically), btw. > Friendships are not for profit. If you want profit, start a business. I'm not talking about commercial/monetary/material profits. I'm talking about profits in terms of social lives. If my wording is unfortunate, I hope that it's still clear what I mean. One important (not the only one) currency in that regard is: Timeslots in the calendar. PS: If the other side shows at least some remote awareness of the situation and indicates a little goodwill, it's already a different thing. In my personal experience, even that isn't common, though.
S_Bear 7mo ago
I cut my parents out of my life as soon as I was able. Depending on the 'vibrancy of family life' when you're old is often a bad gamble.

crystal_revenge 7mo ago

> Many of our child-free friends are going to go through a lot of loneliness when they're old I've seen this "kids are insurance against loneliness" logic repeated often, but I don't believe this bares out in reality. I personally know plenty of child-free older couples who remain quite happy and social. I also know plenty of parents whose kids don't speak to them anymore or whose children have lives on the other side of the country/world. Anecdotally the loneliest older people I know are ones who have put it upon their children to keep themselves from loneliness. > And despite all that, we love them and we want to have them As a parent I always find it funny that we need to add this to every statement of frustration of family life (I'm not critiquing you, I also say this every time I mention any frustration about parenting). It is worth recognizing that saying the contrary is fundamentally taboo. I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted"

fusslo 7mo ago
My mothers' friends have to fund vacations for their adult children and grand children in order to spend time with them. They wont let her stay at their home. My mother was giddy when my father died; so I have strong boundaries in our relationship. My brother moved to colorado after the service and never returned. I'm not convinced having children is the answer alone. (I say as a childless 35yo)
- lostlogin 7mo ago
  > They wont let her stay at their home. There are many reasons this could be the case. The internet (and Reddit in particular) is abound with AITA type discussions around boundaries within families.
- rootusrootus 7mo ago
  Being a parent is orthogonal to being someone people want to spend time with. Unless I knew for sure I was not in the latter group, I wouldn’t use it as a justification for not having kids.
wisemang 7mo ago
Indeed. There was a CBC radio episode last year that had parents discussing regrets. It felt weird to hear people saying these things out loud. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/9.6661746 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/9.6661746
koakuma-chan 7mo ago
So why do you have children? Can't synthesize a reason?
- lucyjojo 7mo ago
  have kids because i wanted to. and life is beautiful.
mothballed 7mo ago
>I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted" Because there's no point in thinking about it. Your wife will ask if you want to leave, your children will hate you, and society will hate you, it will make you feel depressed, and meanwhile it won't accomplish anything. It's a dialogue only for yourself, once you acknowledge that, it becomes far less challenging to deal with and you can move forward with dealing with challenges in solvable ways.
iugtmkbdfil834 7mo ago
<< I find this to be another under-discussed challenging of parenting: you can never even entertain the idea that "maybe this wasn't what I wanted" You can absolutely think it as long as it stops there. There is a reason. At that point in the game, your needs and wants are supposed to be subordinate to those of the kids' long term survival. I could maybe understand this sentiment, oh 50 years ago, when you maybe could plausibly claim you had no idea that child rearing is not exactly easy, but unless a person is almost completely detached from society, it is near impossible to miss the "pregnancy will ruin your life" propaganda. Consequences. They exist. Some are life altering and expected to last a long time.
- crystal_revenge 7mo ago
  This is a hilariously narrow view of family life. Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between living a life you feel is solely about "paying consequences" or "completely abandoning all responsibility" (which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former) But I do appreciate you providing an object lesson in just how taboo it is to even entertain the thought publicly!
  - iugtmkbdfil834 7mo ago
    You can entertain it. You just did. But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point. << This is a hilariously narrow view of family life. Quite the contrary, it allows for a very broad range of outcomes, because it deals with reality of the human condition. << which, btw, is still an option. Not great, but neither is the former Everything always is. Why, tomorrow I could quit my job and start a bar in Hawaii. As arguments go, this one was pretty weak. << Life is a lot more complicated and there's essentially limitless possibility between Why am I getting this feeling that you completely misread what I wrote.
    - rc5150 7mo ago
      "But don't expect standing ovation is my very subtle point." that's the exact reasoning why parents who complain about how hard it is to be a parent get no sympathy from you. You blew a load in somebody (or had a load blown into you) and another human popped out. That's a choice you made for yourself, nobody forced you to, and there is a big giant swath of people out there who couldn't care less.
jujube3 7mo ago
Being able to hook up with random strangers on apps might be fun in your 20s and 30s. When you're old and wrinkly, it's not going to be the same. I hate to say it, but this is especially true for women entering their twilight years. A lot of childless people in our generation are headed to a very sad and lonely future. COVID was exceptionally hard on these people. A lot of the weirdness of the COVID years was just people going crazy in isolation. Trading random stocks, or ordering crazy nonsense off of Amazon. Being alone is literally psychological abuse and a lot of them were subjected to it for months at a time.
- S_Bear 7mo ago
  And wife and I are both old and wrinkly and happily child free. Childfree people aren't just hedonists.
tuesdaynight 7mo ago
About your first point, I understand why it happens, but I get frustrated at these debates nowadays. Both sides cannot talk about their experiences without having to add something that invalidates the other side choice. They cannot fathom that the other side may prefer the disadvantages of their choice instead of the disadvantages of yours. Maybe it's the human condition to try to point out how the other side will regret their choices to validate our life decisions
- jonmb 7mo ago
  Well said. I appreciate people on both sides that can simply acknowledge having kids is great for some people, and not having them is great for others, and the world is big enough for all of us.

echelon 7mo ago

It's not that being a parent is harder - it's actually easier (excluding the post-WWII American boom years which were a fluke). It's that the floor of being single has risen to stratospheric highs. Being single used to be: boring (no internet, tv, constant dopamine drip. Having kids was an escape from mundane boredom.) Being single used to be: lonely (now we have dating and hookup apps, online games, tons of in-person events - cities are filled with concerts and music festivals, you name it, more Michelin Star restaurants than anyone could visit, etc. etc.) Being a woman used to be: limited choice (now we fortunately have tons of options for women - careers, etc. They can enjoy the same freedoms, fun, and personal investment as men.) Not to mention that parents have all kinds of new social stigmas. Having children used to be: free labor, send them off to do whatever (now you'd be accused of child abuse) Basically, the problem is single life is too good now. We have smartphones, internet, and the economy revolves around the single experience. The minute you have kids, you lose access to the exciting single life that the modern society has built itself around and catered itself to. Society glorifies single life, and the signalling is so strong you know you'll lose it if you have kids. It's not like you have time anyway with the doomscrolling and dopamine addiction.

estearum 7mo ago
> It's not that being a parent is harder - it's actually easier (excluding the post-WWII American boom years which were a fluke). Why would it be easier today? You used to just open your door and go let your kids run around and hope they're back before dinner. Absolutely nothing like today's ultracompetitive, ultra-regimented world.
- iugtmkbdfil834 7mo ago
  This. I know me and all my peers roamed the neighborhood and my wife's life was not that different despite being born on different continents. Doing the same now risks a visit from state child neglect referral, which is enough to give most a pause. Parents seem to get all the risk and less benefits, while getting the stink eye when kid is not behaving properly. In short, I am entirely confused on what would be easier today. If anything, things have gotten exponentially worse.. if you care enough to do it right.

HelloMcFly 7mo ago

> My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way I completely believe that’s been your experience, but want to highlight that his is a difficult asymmetry in these friendships. I in no way mean to imply that the below is the experience your friends had with you, just that the challenges are not one-way. In my own circle, my wife and I have often felt like it was our friends with kids who vanished. We knew they were busy, we kept extending invites or asking for time. Things often didn't work especially as new parents are figuring their lives out, things are changing all the time, etc. We'd meet up here and there, but it was - necessarily - always on their terms. And so of course, our outreach tapered down incrementally but consistently. But I do wonder: do they feel we detached from them, or do they have any inkling that we feel they detached from us? We've discussed it with one couple who we were always closer to, but it doesn't feel an appropriate topic to resurface uninvited at any given moment.

fleeting900 7mo ago
Speaking from the other side, but having been on your side for most of my 20s and 30s and felt exactly how you do, they probably do feel you detached from them. Their lives fundamentally changed to the extent that as you say, any gathering necessarily must be on terms that allow them to parent. And the level of last-minute cancellations and apologies increase. And on top of that, they’re just not prioritising reaching out to you. Mainly because parenting occupies 25 hours of most days and they’re exhausted, but they’re also probably assuming that any activity in reach for them, like simply getting coffee at a playground while they try to make sure their kid doesn’t eat too much sand, is not your idea of a fun time. So your outreach tapered down in response, but that is ultimately your choice. The alternative requires you to quite selflessly keep up the outreach and be OK with a lower hit rate, and lean into the fact that you have far, far greater flexibility to meet on their terms than they do to meet on yours. Not doing that is not an unreasonable choice, but they probably miss you and want you to be part of their kids lives. Anyway, thanks for sharing this point of view. It’s a hard situation.
- HelloMcFly 7mo ago

pino83 7mo ago

> You're not alone, Kraig911. It's very hard to be a parent in modern society. My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way. Similar to what I wrote in the other reply: How far went _your_ initiative to stay in actual contact with them, in a way it's not a boring duty call, but something _actually_ nice? If I have friends with children, sure I'm also interested in them. But if it turns out that these friends have no desire to spend time with _me_ anymore - without any kids involved - and they mostly expect from me that I constantly want to see the kids and "help in any way", well, where do I profit from that friendship?? It often gets quite asymmetrical and boring.

tasuki 7mo ago
> But if it turns out that these friends have no desire to spend time with _me_ anymore - without any kids involved See the problem is the kids. You can't quite make them go away that easily. My guess would be your friends would love to spend some time with you but can't, because logistics. > where do I profit from that friendship?? It often gets quite asymmetrical and boring. Friendships are not for profit. If you want profit, start a business.
- pino83 7mo ago
  > See the problem is the kids. You can't quite make them go away that easily. You can't, sure. You shouldn't at least. But what does it mean to me? It leads to the fact that the friendship is pointless. So why should I take a lot of initiative, when I don't get anything back anymore? For a reason that they've actively decided for (typically), btw. > Friendships are not for profit. If you want profit, start a business. I'm not talking about commercial/monetary/material profits. I'm talking about profits in terms of social lives. If my wording is unfortunate, I hope that it's still clear what I mean. One important (not the only one) currency in that regard is: Timeslots in the calendar. PS: If the other side shows at least some remote awareness of the situation and indicates a little goodwill, it's already a different thing. In my personal experience, even that isn't common, though.

S_Bear 7mo ago

I cut my parents out of my life as soon as I was able. Depending on the 'vibrancy of family life' when you're old is often a bad gamble.