10 ms·

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. Fran

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965

chii 8mo ago
So why didn't this happen with electricity, water and food, but would with thinking capacity?
- tomnipotent 8mo ago
  > electricity, water and food Wars are frequently fought of these three things, and there's no shortage of examples of the humans controlling these resources lording over those that did not.
- adastra22 8mo ago
  It did. Look around you.
  - Scrapemist 8mo ago
    Having to pay for utilities you mean?
    - cryptonector 8mo ago
      No, being beholden to a payments and banking system that can cancel you at any time, for any reason, with little hope for redress.
      - StefanBatory 8mo ago
        Because in the past you weren't beholden to payments?
        j16sdiz 8mo ago
        That you can't transfer large sum of money because money laundering rule. and you can't break it into smaller pieces either because that is called "structuring" and is a crime?
        chii 8mo ago
        > you can't transfer large sum of money because money laundering rule when did that happen? I can transfer as large an amount, provided i can prove the providence of said money wasn't from crime.
        adastra22 8mo ago
        He is meaning “money” = cash, and in practice he is correct. The mere possession of large amount of cash is a crime - a crime charged against the money itself in a bizarre twist of the law to end run constitutional concerns - and one which year by year it is getting harder to fight.
        cryptonector 8mo ago
        In the pre-banking era you could get robbed, killed, taxed to death, made to fight in a war, etc. That's all still true, but now most of your resources (savings) will be stuck in a place where there is no need for violence to cause you to lose all of it. The way we normally deal with all these problems as a society is to apply force (via police, courts) to ensure that everyone has certain 'rights'. The problem today is that while you have certain rights, like fairly strong rights to private property interests in real estate and such, we generally have very weak private property rights in financial properties. This is a problem world-wide. We need to fix this in our countries.
    - datsci_est_2015 8mo ago
      Gains from efficiency are experienced by labor in chunks, mostly due to great strife or revolutions (40 hour work week, child labor laws, etc.). Gains in efficiency experienced by capital are immediate and continuously accruing.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- shaky-carrousel 8mo ago
  Oh, because if the electric company banned you for trying to recharge a dildo they'd be sued to oblivion.
- gregoriol 8mo ago
  Try to get banned from any of these, or from the banking system, and find out
  - mrkeen 8mo ago
    Not a hypothetical https://lavialibera.it/en-schede-2447-francesca_albanese_under_us_sanctions_banca_etica_cannot_open_the_account_but_asks_politics_for_a_c https://lavialibera.it/en-schede-2447-francesca_albanese_und...
- mrkeen 8mo ago
  > food Can you sell or share farm-saved seed? "It is illegal to sell, buy, barter or share farm-saved seed," warns Sam. [1] Can feed grain be sown? No – it is against the law to use any bought-in grain to establish a crop. [1] FTC sues John Deere over farmers' right to repair tractors The lawsuit, which Deere called "meritless," accuses the company of withholding access to its technology and best repair tools and of maintaining monopoly power over many repairs. Deere also reaps additional profits from selling parts, the complaint alleges, as authorized dealers tend to sell pricey Deere-branded parts for their repairs rather than generic alternatives. [2] [1] https://www.fwi.co.uk/arable/the-dos-and-donts-of-farm-saved-seed https://www.fwi.co.uk/arable/the-dos-and-donts-of-farm-saved... [2] https://www.npr.org/2025/01/15/nx-s1-5260895/john-deere-ftc-lawsuit-right-to-repair-tractors https://www.npr.org/2025/01/15/nx-s1-5260895/john-deere-ftc-...
- Cthulhu_ 8mo ago
  These are regulated by governments that, at least for now, are still working for the people. They're some of the first that get attacked and taken away when said government fails though, or when another government invades. (ex: Palestine got their utilities and food cut off so that thousands starved, Ukraine's infrastructure is under attack so that thousands will die from exposure, and that's after they went for their food exports, starving more that people that depended on it)
- midtake 8mo ago
  What do you mean? This is very much true. We are economically compelled to buy food from supermarkets, for instance, because hunting and fishing have become regulated, niche activities. Compared to someone from the 1600s who could scoop a salmon out of the river with a bucket, we are quite oppressed.
  - kuerbel 8mo ago
    On the flip side, fishing quotas are the reason there are some fish left. However you are free to grow your own vegetables.
    - amiga386 8mo ago
      ... provided you own land that the government allows for agricultural use. And most people can't afford to own enough land to be self-sufficient. So you're not free to grow your own vegetables either; just like fishing, farming is regulated to manage limited resources. Things get ugly fast when you start raising pigs in your city apartment, or start polluting with pesticide runoff, or start diverting your neighbour's water supply...
      - galleywest200 8mo ago
        >.. provided you own land that the government allows for agricultural use Gardens are a thing, and you do not need your house to be on agricultural land to grow a garden, at least in my state.
        amiga386 8mo ago
        You can grow some amount of produce, if you have a garden, but a lot of people don't have their own garden, and if they do it's quite small. To be entirely self-sufficient, you need quite a large area of land just to grow enough food for the entire year. Most people don't have that, and can't afford that, hence why they take the route of earning money some other way, and using the money to buy food made by others, from supermarkets. They can supplement their diet with home-grown fruit and veg, but few can sustain their family on home-grown produce.
- dragonwriter 8mo ago
  It... has, historically, in many different ways happened with food, particularly.
- snowmobile 8mo ago
  > How is thinking different from electricity? ...
- GeoAtreides 8mo ago
  Funny enough Herbert does address this EXACT point, he calls it hydraulic despotism
- jfyi 8mo ago
  Ask Ukraine about Holodomor.
leoh 8mo ago
Prophetic

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965

chii 8mo ago

So why didn't this happen with electricity, water and food, but would with thinking capacity?

tomnipotent 8mo ago
> electricity, water and food Wars are frequently fought of these three things, and there's no shortage of examples of the humans controlling these resources lording over those that did not.
adastra22 8mo ago
It did. Look around you.
- Scrapemist 8mo ago
  Having to pay for utilities you mean?
  - cryptonector 8mo ago
    No, being beholden to a payments and banking system that can cancel you at any time, for any reason, with little hope for redress.
    - StefanBatory 8mo ago
      Because in the past you weren't beholden to payments?
      - j16sdiz 8mo ago
        That you can't transfer large sum of money because money laundering rule. and you can't break it into smaller pieces either because that is called "structuring" and is a crime?
        chii 8mo ago
        > you can't transfer large sum of money because money laundering rule when did that happen? I can transfer as large an amount, provided i can prove the providence of said money wasn't from crime.
        adastra22 8mo ago
        He is meaning “money” = cash, and in practice he is correct. The mere possession of large amount of cash is a crime - a crime charged against the money itself in a bizarre twist of the law to end run constitutional concerns - and one which year by year it is getting harder to fight.
      - cryptonector 8mo ago
        In the pre-banking era you could get robbed, killed, taxed to death, made to fight in a war, etc. That's all still true, but now most of your resources (savings) will be stuck in a place where there is no need for violence to cause you to lose all of it. The way we normally deal with all these problems as a society is to apply force (via police, courts) to ensure that everyone has certain 'rights'. The problem today is that while you have certain rights, like fairly strong rights to private property interests in real estate and such, we generally have very weak private property rights in financial properties. This is a problem world-wide. We need to fix this in our countries.
  - datsci_est_2015 8mo ago
    Gains from efficiency are experienced by labor in chunks, mostly due to great strife or revolutions (40 hour work week, child labor laws, etc.). Gains in efficiency experienced by capital are immediate and continuously accruing.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
shaky-carrousel 8mo ago
Oh, because if the electric company banned you for trying to recharge a dildo they'd be sued to oblivion.
gregoriol 8mo ago
Try to get banned from any of these, or from the banking system, and find out
- mrkeen 8mo ago
  Not a hypothetical https://lavialibera.it/en-schede-2447-francesca_albanese_under_us_sanctions_banca_etica_cannot_open_the_account_but_asks_politics_for_a_c https://lavialibera.it/en-schede-2447-francesca_albanese_und...
mrkeen 8mo ago
> food Can you sell or share farm-saved seed? "It is illegal to sell, buy, barter or share farm-saved seed," warns Sam. [1] Can feed grain be sown? No – it is against the law to use any bought-in grain to establish a crop. [1] FTC sues John Deere over farmers' right to repair tractors The lawsuit, which Deere called "meritless," accuses the company of withholding access to its technology and best repair tools and of maintaining monopoly power over many repairs. Deere also reaps additional profits from selling parts, the complaint alleges, as authorized dealers tend to sell pricey Deere-branded parts for their repairs rather than generic alternatives. [2] [1] https://www.fwi.co.uk/arable/the-dos-and-donts-of-farm-saved-seed https://www.fwi.co.uk/arable/the-dos-and-donts-of-farm-saved... [2] https://www.npr.org/2025/01/15/nx-s1-5260895/john-deere-ftc-lawsuit-right-to-repair-tractors https://www.npr.org/2025/01/15/nx-s1-5260895/john-deere-ftc-...
Cthulhu_ 8mo ago
These are regulated by governments that, at least for now, are still working for the people. They're some of the first that get attacked and taken away when said government fails though, or when another government invades. (ex: Palestine got their utilities and food cut off so that thousands starved, Ukraine's infrastructure is under attack so that thousands will die from exposure, and that's after they went for their food exports, starving more that people that depended on it)
midtake 8mo ago
What do you mean? This is very much true. We are economically compelled to buy food from supermarkets, for instance, because hunting and fishing have become regulated, niche activities. Compared to someone from the 1600s who could scoop a salmon out of the river with a bucket, we are quite oppressed.
- kuerbel 8mo ago
  On the flip side, fishing quotas are the reason there are some fish left. However you are free to grow your own vegetables.
  - amiga386 8mo ago
    ... provided you own land that the government allows for agricultural use. And most people can't afford to own enough land to be self-sufficient. So you're not free to grow your own vegetables either; just like fishing, farming is regulated to manage limited resources. Things get ugly fast when you start raising pigs in your city apartment, or start polluting with pesticide runoff, or start diverting your neighbour's water supply...
    - galleywest200 8mo ago
      >.. provided you own land that the government allows for agricultural use Gardens are a thing, and you do not need your house to be on agricultural land to grow a garden, at least in my state.
      - amiga386 8mo ago
        You can grow some amount of produce, if you have a garden, but a lot of people don't have their own garden, and if they do it's quite small. To be entirely self-sufficient, you need quite a large area of land just to grow enough food for the entire year. Most people don't have that, and can't afford that, hence why they take the route of earning money some other way, and using the money to buy food made by others, from supermarkets. They can supplement their diet with home-grown fruit and veg, but few can sustain their family on home-grown produce.
dragonwriter 8mo ago
It... has, historically, in many different ways happened with food, particularly.
snowmobile 8mo ago
> How is thinking different from electricity? ...
GeoAtreides 8mo ago
Funny enough Herbert does address this EXACT point, he calls it hydraulic despotism
jfyi 8mo ago
Ask Ukraine about Holodomor.

leoh 8mo ago

Prophetic