9 ms·

I don't think AI is the cause, it's merely the mechanism that is speeding up what has already been happening. Social media was already isolating people. It is

by 6DM 8mo ago

I don't think AI is the cause, it's merely the mechanism that is speeding up what has already been happening. Social media was already isolating people. It is being sped up by the use of AI bots (see dead internet theory). These bots are being used to create chaos in society for political purposes, but overall it's increasingly radicalizing people and as a result further isolating everyone. AI isn't eroding college institutions, they were already becoming a money grab and a glorified jobs program. Interpersonal relationships (i.e. connections) are still present, I don't see how AI changes that in this scenario. I am not a fan of how AI is shaping our society, but I don't place blame on it for these instances. It is in my opinion that AI is speeding up these aspects. The article does highlight one thing that I do attribute to AI and that is the lack of critical thinking. People are thinking less with the use of AI. Instead of spending time evaluating, exploring and trying to think creatively. We are collectively offloading that to AI.

echelon 8mo ago
100% correct in the first part, though I'd like to think there's a bimodal effect with AI users and usage. Hard working expert users, leveraging AI as an exoskeleton and who carefully review the outputs, are getting way more done and are stronger humans. This is true with code, writing, and media. People using AI as an easy button are becoming weaker. They're becoming less involved, less attentive, weaker critical thinkers. I have to think that over some time span this is going to matter immensely. Expert AI users are going to displace non-AI users, and poor AI users are going to be filtered at the bottom. So long as these systems require humans, anyway. Personally speaking: My output in code has easily doubled. I carefully review everything and still write most stuff by hand. I'm a serious engineer who built and maintained billion dollar transaction volume systems. Distributed systems, active active, five+ nines SLA. I'm finding these tools immensely valuable. My output in design is 100% net new. I wasn't able to do this before. Now I can spin up websites and marketing graphics. That's insane. I made films and media the old fashioned way as a hobby. Now I'm making lots of it and constantly. It's 30x'd my output. I'm also making 3D characters and rigging them for previz and as stand-ins. I could never do that before either. I'm still not using LLMs to help my writing, but eventually I might. I do use it as a thesaurus occasionally or to look up better idioms on rare occasion.
- nathan_compton 8mo ago
  I have observed this with students. Some use AI to really extend their capabilities and learn more, others become lazy and end up learning less than if they hadn't used AI.
nautilus12 8mo ago
I don't think this argument makes much sense. If you are running down hill towards a cliff then saying that adding a cart to speed up the process doesn't give the cart moral blameworthiness is an unhelpful observation. You can still chose to stop running down the hill or to not get on the cart.
- sodapopcan 8mo ago
  Exactly! Was going to make a similar comment if I didn't already see one. People keep saying things like this and drives me fuckin' nuts. It's not that there are no positives but I don't see how the positives outweigh the negatives.
greenavocado 8mo ago
Dead internet theory original post: https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/dead-internet-theory-most-of-the-internet-is-fake.3011/ https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/dead-internet-...
- mock-possum 8mo ago
  Man I had forgotten how batshit conspiracy theory that was
Angostura 8mo ago
I rather disagree with this position. To risk an analogy, if I throw petrol onto an already smouldering pile of leaves, I may mot have ‘caused’ the forest fire, but I have accelerated it so rapidly that the situation becomes unrecognisable. There may already have been cracks in the edifice, but they were fixable. AI takes a wrecking ball to the whole structure
- basilgohar 8mo ago
  I agree and disagree with parts of what you said. AI may have caused a distinct trajectory of the problem, but the old system was already broken and collapsing. If the building falls over or collapses in place doesn't change that the building was already at its end. I think the fact that AI is allowed to go as far as it has is part of the same issue, namely, our profit-at-all-costs methodology of late-stage capitalism. This has lead to the accelerated destruction of many institutions. AI is just one of those tools that lets us sink more and more resources into the grifting faster. (Edit: Fixing typos.)
- booleandilemma 8mo ago
  I agree with this. We've made existing problems 100x worse overnight. I just read the curl project is discontinuing bug bounties. We're losing so much with the rise of AI.
  - arcfour 8mo ago
    That seems a bit fatalistic, "we have lost so much because curl discontinued bug bounties". That's unfortunate, but it's very minor in the grand scheme of things. Also, the fault there lies squarely with charlatans who have been asked/told not to submit "AI slop" bug bounties and yet continue to do so anyway, not with the AI tools used to generate them. Indeed, intelligent researchers have used AI to find legitimate security issues (I recall a story last month on HN about a valid bug being found and disclosed intelligently with AI in curl!). Many tools can be used irresponsibly. Knives can be used to kill someone, or to cook dinner. Cars can take you to work, or take someone's life. AI can be used to generate garbage, or for legitimate security research. Don't blame the tool, blame the user of it.
jrjeksjd8d 8mo ago
Capitalism is destroying institutions. Any new technology must be employed in service of "number go up". In this system externalities have to be priced in with taxes, but it's cheaper to buy off legislators than to actually consider the externalities. This is how we get food that has fewer nutrients but ships better, free next-day delivery of plastic trash from across the world that doesn't work, schools that exist to extract money rather than teach, social media that exists primarily to shove ads in your face and trick you into spending more time on it. In the next 4 years we will see the end of the American experiment, as shareholder capitalism completely consumes itself and produces an economy that can only extort and exploit but not make anything of value.
- jongjong 8mo ago
  It's not capitalism, it's the monetary system that's the problem. It's not a level playing field. Capitalism requires a fair monetary system as a precondition. Though I can agree that communism would be better than whatever perverse system we have now.
  - throwway120385 8mo ago
    I think you're both right. Capitalism is an important part of a liberal society. But when we let private institutions become all-powerful then they can erode our freedom too. The problem isn't government or enterprise, it's the idea that only one of these things should be paramount. We need government to do unprofitable but necessary things and we need enterprise to pursue risky things. And we need government to regulate enterprise and enterprise to hold government accountable. You can name a lot of symptoms of the problem but at its heart there's a lack of accountability in any of our power structures whether they be corporate or government.
    - jongjong 8mo ago
      I disagree with the idea that regulations work. Just consider forever chemicals like phthalates... Known endocrine disruptors. They're everywhere disrupting our hormones and health. Carcinogens are everywhere. How is regulation really working? What works is the threat of punishment and full liability as opposed to limited liability. Regulations just raise entry barriers and stifle competition which makes the system less fair. It's like trying to prevent a crime before it happens; makes no sense. If liability is limited it means that somebody is not being held accountable for some portion of the damage that they're doing. Limited liability just externalizes the surplus liability to society... I think capitalism can work if operating on a level monetary playing field within simple guardrails but without regulations. We could have wealth tax above a certain high amount to prevent political power imbalance.
breppp 8mo ago
[flagged]
- raw_anon_1111 8mo ago
  A government related alignment may lead to increased truth?? Have you been paying attention in the last year where the government is cleansing government websites of any facts that don’t support its narrative
  - breppp 8mo ago
    Yes, I believe the reason we have got to this point is the destruction of institutions such as the press. Historically the press had pushed narratives controlled by state elites who also had a vested interest in the state wellbeing. Today these are pushed by foreign entities or the more extreme the more engagement. That's why conspiracy theories replaced established truths, the populist left believes in anti-state slogans such as "defund the police" and the populist right wants to destroy the supreme court AI alignment might return the elites controlled narratives which were apparently crucial for democracy
    - raw_anon_1111 8mo ago
      You realize you are being part of the problem that fell for the same talking points you accuse others of right? The “leftists” were arguing to demilitarize the police and spend money on mental health programs and when someone is having a mental health crisis, send someone trained to help the person instead of trigger happy untrained police who don’t know how to de escalate
      - breppp 8mo ago
        It is the same thing, it's taking institutions of the democratic state and dismantling them exactly like trump's attack on the supreme court which could also be explained with excuses such as "a non elected institution is trying to curb the will of the people", and that's just the top off my head
palmotea 8mo ago
> I don't think AI is the cause, it's merely the mechanism that is speeding up what has already been happening. I think the technical term is "throwing gas on the fire." It's usually considered a really bad thing to do. > I am not a fan of how AI is shaping our society, but I don't place blame on it for these instances. It is in my opinion that AI is speeding up these aspects. If someone throws gas on a fire, you can totally blame them for the fire getting out of control. After all, they made it much worse! Like: "we used to have smouldering brush fire that we could put out, but since you dumped all that gas on it, now we will die because we have a forest fire raging all around us."
jongjong 8mo ago
Yes of course AI is just a symptom. The cause is the fiat monetary system. In all history, no fiat monetary system has ever lasted. There have been hundreds. They always fail eventually and lead to the collapse of nations and empires.
godelski 8mo ago
While I agree with a lot of what you said, your comment implies catalysts and accelerants don't matter. The roots of the problem are very real and very complex but forcing them to be addressed quickly throws people into panic mode and frankly that leads to sloppy solutions that are going to cause the cycle to repeat (though will temporarily solve some problems, and this is far better than nothing). > We are collectively offloading that to AI. Frankly, this is happening because so many are already in that panicked stressed mode (due to many factors, not just social media). It's well know people can't think critically under high stress. AI isn't the cause of that stress but it sure is amplifying many of them
pyeri 8mo ago
If bots are being used to create chaos in society, it really isn't possible that the platforms themselves are just innocent bystanders here. It is technically possible and quite easy for the platforms to block bots if they really wanted to, in fact it's actually in their best interest to have human only organic activity as it increases the platform's credibility and reduces network cost. If they're still letting bots operate and actually post content on their platforms, they're likely in cahoots with the politicians.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
anonymars 8mo ago
Honestly, I know I'm going to sound off my rocker but thinking of e.g. Mass Effect or The Matrix, are we watching ourselves getting evolved/replaced in real time? All of existence has been a to-and-fro of larger organisms emerging by connecting and subsuming smaller ones. Organelles, cells, organisms... Are we creating the instruments of our own ascension (fancy calculators) or are we doomed to watch AI and the internet manipulate and supersede us?
johnnyanmac 8mo ago
>I am not a fan of how AI is shaping our society, but I don't place blame on it for these instances. It is in my opinion that AI is speeding up these aspects. I'll use a rather extreme example here, but this sounds a bit like "Heroin addiction is just speeding up aspects that society already does. It's so easy to get addicted to smoking cigarettes". Sometimes the catalyst is the problem, even if it's not the only problem. In this case I think placing some guardrail on both social media and AI is worthwhile.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]

by 6DM 8mo ago

echelon 8mo ago

100% correct in the first part, though I'd like to think there's a bimodal effect with AI users and usage. Hard working expert users, leveraging AI as an exoskeleton and who carefully review the outputs, are getting way more done and are stronger humans. This is true with code, writing, and media. People using AI as an easy button are becoming weaker. They're becoming less involved, less attentive, weaker critical thinkers. I have to think that over some time span this is going to matter immensely. Expert AI users are going to displace non-AI users, and poor AI users are going to be filtered at the bottom. So long as these systems require humans, anyway. Personally speaking: My output in code has easily doubled. I carefully review everything and still write most stuff by hand. I'm a serious engineer who built and maintained billion dollar transaction volume systems. Distributed systems, active active, five+ nines SLA. I'm finding these tools immensely valuable. My output in design is 100% net new. I wasn't able to do this before. Now I can spin up websites and marketing graphics. That's insane. I made films and media the old fashioned way as a hobby. Now I'm making lots of it and constantly. It's 30x'd my output. I'm also making 3D characters and rigging them for previz and as stand-ins. I could never do that before either. I'm still not using LLMs to help my writing, but eventually I might. I do use it as a thesaurus occasionally or to look up better idioms on rare occasion.

nathan_compton 8mo ago
I have observed this with students. Some use AI to really extend their capabilities and learn more, others become lazy and end up learning less than if they hadn't used AI.

nautilus12 8mo ago

I don't think this argument makes much sense. If you are running down hill towards a cliff then saying that adding a cart to speed up the process doesn't give the cart moral blameworthiness is an unhelpful observation. You can still chose to stop running down the hill or to not get on the cart.

sodapopcan 8mo ago
Exactly! Was going to make a similar comment if I didn't already see one. People keep saying things like this and drives me fuckin' nuts. It's not that there are no positives but I don't see how the positives outweigh the negatives.

greenavocado 8mo ago

Dead internet theory original post: https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/dead-internet-theory-most-of-the-internet-is-fake.3011/ https://forum.agoraroad.com/index.php?threads/dead-internet-...

mock-possum 8mo ago
Man I had forgotten how batshit conspiracy theory that was

Angostura 8mo ago

I rather disagree with this position. To risk an analogy, if I throw petrol onto an already smouldering pile of leaves, I may mot have ‘caused’ the forest fire, but I have accelerated it so rapidly that the situation becomes unrecognisable. There may already have been cracks in the edifice, but they were fixable. AI takes a wrecking ball to the whole structure

basilgohar 8mo ago
I agree and disagree with parts of what you said. AI may have caused a distinct trajectory of the problem, but the old system was already broken and collapsing. If the building falls over or collapses in place doesn't change that the building was already at its end. I think the fact that AI is allowed to go as far as it has is part of the same issue, namely, our profit-at-all-costs methodology of late-stage capitalism. This has lead to the accelerated destruction of many institutions. AI is just one of those tools that lets us sink more and more resources into the grifting faster. (Edit: Fixing typos.)
booleandilemma 8mo ago
I agree with this. We've made existing problems 100x worse overnight. I just read the curl project is discontinuing bug bounties. We're losing so much with the rise of AI.
- arcfour 8mo ago
  That seems a bit fatalistic, "we have lost so much because curl discontinued bug bounties". That's unfortunate, but it's very minor in the grand scheme of things. Also, the fault there lies squarely with charlatans who have been asked/told not to submit "AI slop" bug bounties and yet continue to do so anyway, not with the AI tools used to generate them. Indeed, intelligent researchers have used AI to find legitimate security issues (I recall a story last month on HN about a valid bug being found and disclosed intelligently with AI in curl!). Many tools can be used irresponsibly. Knives can be used to kill someone, or to cook dinner. Cars can take you to work, or take someone's life. AI can be used to generate garbage, or for legitimate security research. Don't blame the tool, blame the user of it.

jrjeksjd8d 8mo ago

Capitalism is destroying institutions. Any new technology must be employed in service of "number go up". In this system externalities have to be priced in with taxes, but it's cheaper to buy off legislators than to actually consider the externalities. This is how we get food that has fewer nutrients but ships better, free next-day delivery of plastic trash from across the world that doesn't work, schools that exist to extract money rather than teach, social media that exists primarily to shove ads in your face and trick you into spending more time on it. In the next 4 years we will see the end of the American experiment, as shareholder capitalism completely consumes itself and produces an economy that can only extort and exploit but not make anything of value.

jongjong 8mo ago
It's not capitalism, it's the monetary system that's the problem. It's not a level playing field. Capitalism requires a fair monetary system as a precondition. Though I can agree that communism would be better than whatever perverse system we have now.
- throwway120385 8mo ago
  I think you're both right. Capitalism is an important part of a liberal society. But when we let private institutions become all-powerful then they can erode our freedom too. The problem isn't government or enterprise, it's the idea that only one of these things should be paramount. We need government to do unprofitable but necessary things and we need enterprise to pursue risky things. And we need government to regulate enterprise and enterprise to hold government accountable. You can name a lot of symptoms of the problem but at its heart there's a lack of accountability in any of our power structures whether they be corporate or government.
  - jongjong 8mo ago
    I disagree with the idea that regulations work. Just consider forever chemicals like phthalates... Known endocrine disruptors. They're everywhere disrupting our hormones and health. Carcinogens are everywhere. How is regulation really working? What works is the threat of punishment and full liability as opposed to limited liability. Regulations just raise entry barriers and stifle competition which makes the system less fair. It's like trying to prevent a crime before it happens; makes no sense. If liability is limited it means that somebody is not being held accountable for some portion of the damage that they're doing. Limited liability just externalizes the surplus liability to society... I think capitalism can work if operating on a level monetary playing field within simple guardrails but without regulations. We could have wealth tax above a certain high amount to prevent political power imbalance.

breppp 8mo ago

[flagged]

raw_anon_1111 8mo ago
A government related alignment may lead to increased truth?? Have you been paying attention in the last year where the government is cleansing government websites of any facts that don’t support its narrative
- breppp 8mo ago
  Yes, I believe the reason we have got to this point is the destruction of institutions such as the press. Historically the press had pushed narratives controlled by state elites who also had a vested interest in the state wellbeing. Today these are pushed by foreign entities or the more extreme the more engagement. That's why conspiracy theories replaced established truths, the populist left believes in anti-state slogans such as "defund the police" and the populist right wants to destroy the supreme court AI alignment might return the elites controlled narratives which were apparently crucial for democracy
  - raw_anon_1111 8mo ago
    You realize you are being part of the problem that fell for the same talking points you accuse others of right? The “leftists” were arguing to demilitarize the police and spend money on mental health programs and when someone is having a mental health crisis, send someone trained to help the person instead of trigger happy untrained police who don’t know how to de escalate
    - breppp 8mo ago
      It is the same thing, it's taking institutions of the democratic state and dismantling them exactly like trump's attack on the supreme court which could also be explained with excuses such as "a non elected institution is trying to curb the will of the people", and that's just the top off my head

palmotea 8mo ago

> I don't think AI is the cause, it's merely the mechanism that is speeding up what has already been happening. I think the technical term is "throwing gas on the fire." It's usually considered a really bad thing to do. > I am not a fan of how AI is shaping our society, but I don't place blame on it for these instances. It is in my opinion that AI is speeding up these aspects. If someone throws gas on a fire, you can totally blame them for the fire getting out of control. After all, they made it much worse! Like: "we used to have smouldering brush fire that we could put out, but since you dumped all that gas on it, now we will die because we have a forest fire raging all around us."

jongjong 8mo ago

Yes of course AI is just a symptom. The cause is the fiat monetary system. In all history, no fiat monetary system has ever lasted. There have been hundreds. They always fail eventually and lead to the collapse of nations and empires.

godelski 8mo ago

While I agree with a lot of what you said, your comment implies catalysts and accelerants don't matter. The roots of the problem are very real and very complex but forcing them to be addressed quickly throws people into panic mode and frankly that leads to sloppy solutions that are going to cause the cycle to repeat (though will temporarily solve some problems, and this is far better than nothing). > We are collectively offloading that to AI. Frankly, this is happening because so many are already in that panicked stressed mode (due to many factors, not just social media). It's well know people can't think critically under high stress. AI isn't the cause of that stress but it sure is amplifying many of them

pyeri 8mo ago

If bots are being used to create chaos in society, it really isn't possible that the platforms themselves are just innocent bystanders here. It is technically possible and quite easy for the platforms to block bots if they really wanted to, in fact it's actually in their best interest to have human only organic activity as it increases the platform's credibility and reduces network cost. If they're still letting bots operate and actually post content on their platforms, they're likely in cahoots with the politicians.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

anonymars 8mo ago

Honestly, I know I'm going to sound off my rocker but thinking of e.g. Mass Effect or The Matrix, are we watching ourselves getting evolved/replaced in real time? All of existence has been a to-and-fro of larger organisms emerging by connecting and subsuming smaller ones. Organelles, cells, organisms... Are we creating the instruments of our own ascension (fancy calculators) or are we doomed to watch AI and the internet manipulate and supersede us?

johnnyanmac 8mo ago

>I am not a fan of how AI is shaping our society, but I don't place blame on it for these instances. It is in my opinion that AI is speeding up these aspects. I'll use a rather extreme example here, but this sounds a bit like "Heroin addiction is just speeding up aspects that society already does. It's so easy to get addicted to smoking cigarettes". Sometimes the catalyst is the problem, even if it's not the only problem. In this case I think placing some guardrail on both social media and AI is worthwhile.

deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]