6 ms·
I can't help but think this is going to end so poorly for the innocent men, women, and children in Venezuela. I feel for them. While Maduro seems to not be love
by cols 9mo ago
I can't help but think this is going to end so poorly for the innocent men, women, and children in Venezuela. I feel for them. While Maduro seems to not be loved, these periods of violent transition can result in horrid outcomes for the local populace. I can only hope my fellow Americans start to see the light and vote the current administration out of office. I'm not hopeful.
- OCASMv2 9mo agoMaduro and Chavez before him are the horrid outcomes.
- Jolter 9mo agoChavez was the result of democratic elections, before he grabbed dictatorial powers.
- OCASMv2 9mo agoYes, let's pretend this didn't happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_1992_Venezuelan_coup_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_1992_Venezuelan_coup_...
- Jolter 9mo agoI didn’t pretend that. Still, he was elected and the 1998 election is largely uncontested as far as I’m aware.
- Rover222 9mo agoAnd the election he stole last year?
- riazrizvi 9mo agoI don’t see that at all. Lots of good things will come from this IMO. The old wet-kneed approach to shenanigans going on in our own backyard is a disastrous message to people around the world. Just as a resurgently effective law enforcement body can restore a local community that has gone to the dogs, so too it works at an international level. The paradoxical thing about these actions though, is that when they are run by humble mission-oriented and very effective people, they quickly disappear from the public consciousness. So we are all biased to when it goes wrong, ie to when we have incompetent leadership at the helm.
- cols 9mo agoGood point. I could be wrong. I hope you are right.
- throwaway1389z 9mo agoYes, because that is exactly what happened in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Libya, Syria, and on and on and on and on.
- gretch 9mo agoYou made the exact point of the parent comment. Everyone remembers the bad ones only. What about Germany and Japan after WWII? What about South Korea?
- throwaway1389z 9mo agoThe intervention in those countries wasn't explicitly for oil. And do you wonder why do you have to go so far back?
- gretch 9mo ago> And do you wonder why do you have to go so far back? I'm wondering why you don't think they count.
- horns4lyfe 9mo agoDoes no one remember when Obama did this for the exact same reason in Lybia? He wasn’t as dumb about it, but the outcome will be the same.
- armenarmen 9mo agoWhile I agree with the sentiment, Maduro’s fate, for the time being, seems much better than Gaddafi’s. And while increased chaos in the region is not unlikely, I don’t foresee open air slave markets in SA at least
- SanjayMehta 9mo agoBecause the oligarchy running the show behind the scenes is the same.
- concinds 9mo agoLibya wasn’t for oil, intervention was approved by the full UN Security Council, it was motivated by stopping crimes against civilians committed by the regime, and the intervention ended immediately after the regime fell, instead of “running things” and taking the oil like Trump is doing. You’re rewriting history.
- perihelions 9mo agoThat's the false history of the felon Nicolas Sarkozy, who is going to prison for the crimes he did in Libya for his personal enrichment [0]. The reason France and its crook leader invaded Libya was, according to public reports[1], because they had negotiated back-room deals with anti-Qaddafi rebels for oil. 35% of Libya's oil production in exchange for French support. Literally a war for oil. Qaddafi's atrocities were real, but they were never the motivation of the French-lead bombing of Libya. That was a false rationalization made up to manufacture public consent. Manufacture consent for a failed intervention, that left Libya worse off than it had ever been. > "was approved by the full UN Security Council" Whose members actually knew about the corrupt oil deal[2], and chose to go along with the fraud, lying to their own people. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_financing_in_the_2007_French_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_financing_in_the_2007_F... ("Libyan financing in the 2007 French presidential election") [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/01/libya-oil https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/01/libya-oil ("The new Tripoli government has denied the existence of a reported secret deal by which French companies would control more than a third of Libya's oil production in return for Paris's support for the revolution") [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/libyan-oil-gold-and-qaddafi-the-strange-email-sidney-blumenthal-sent-hillary-clinton-in-2011/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/libyan-oil-gold-and-qaddafi-... ("Libyan Oil, Gold, and Qaddafi: The Strange Email Sidney Blumenthal Sent Hillary Clinton In 2011")
- 0xDEAFBEAD 9mo agoPeople forget that Iraq was a key wedge issue which allowed Trump to gain mindshare within the GOP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ThZcq1oJQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ThZcq1oJQ A fairly optimistic way to spin this situation is as follows. Either it somehow works out for Venezuela, in which case we effectively helped millions of people Homer Simpson style. Or, more likely, failure disgraces Trump the same way it disgraced GWB. Then (fingers crossed) we elect a humbler, more realistic leader who works to rebuild the country we wrecked, and we can move on from the Trump era.
- microtonal 9mo agoWhy would Trump allow a peaceful transfer of power? Jan 6 happened and it failed because the first Trump administration still had people who cared about the rule of law (e.g. Pence). I think the only hope is that the guy is old and unhealthy, in contrast to e.g. when Putin or Orban grabbed power. And it is possible that the GOP will fracture over fights between who see themselves as his successor. If this doesn't happen, I don't have much hope for the US as a democracy.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 9mo agoI'm not sure he has enough support in the deep state to pull it off.
- sivakon 9mo agoMaduro was handing out guns to civilians but people here thinking he was not loved.
- Rover222 9mo agoThis comment is so out of touch with the reality of Venezuelans. They are crying tears of joy. This is a society that knows what it wants, knows how to function as a democracy, but has not been able to for decades.
- Bender 9mo agoThey are crying tears of joy. That pretty much sums it up. I think Zack covered it well too. [1] I do not understand what benefit there was to a dictator remaining in place and why so many on HN support him. Over a third of Venezuelans fled that country and lost everything to escape tyranny. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_x9aWccFCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_x9aWccFCE [video][52m][language]
- Rover222 9mo agoExactly. As if leaving Maduro in power is somehow better for Venezuelans than an external intervention. Things could not be worse than they have been.
- integralid 9mo ago>Things could not be worse than they have been. Things can always get worse. The GP didn't say changing Maduro to other president is bad, but that "periods of violent transition" can have dire consequences for the regular people. And US seems to be in it for the money, not to liberate the downtrodden. I wish them peace and prosperity, though.
- Rover222 9mo agoI wish them peace and prosperity as well. Everyone does. It’s been 25 years of hell and it was just going to continue as such.
- ajjahs 9mo ago[dead]
- diedyesterday 9mo agoYou obviously seem to have no idea how mafia-style dictatorships like those of Iran, Russian and Venezuela work. No fault of you. Most people don't. And even their own citizens come to the realization after a long time living under them; partly because they get caught in the constant propaganda campaign which is one hallmark of these regimes. They always live in the propaganda mode.