7 ms·

I can supply my own anecdata here. I recently went through 6 weeks of PT for injured tendons / tendinitis in my arms with 0 results. The therapist suggested w

I can supply my own anecdata here. I recently went through 6 weeks of PT for injured tendons / tendinitis in my arms with 0 results. The therapist suggested we try dry needling + electric stimulation for another 6 weeks. So we did that and I recovered 90% in the second 6 weeks of therapy. There were side effects but they were minimal and completely gone now. It looked a little like this except on my arms: https://youtube.com/shorts/pTEPMgDdy2A?si=MSx7YnmUbApsigWe https://youtube.com/shorts/pTEPMgDdy2A?si=MSx7YnmUbApsigWe I was skeptical but sold on the benefits and relieved to have an effective therapy option to fall back on when it happens again as it does every couple years. Unfortunately, my insurance doesn’t pay for it.

simmerup 11mo ago
WHat were the side effects?
- glitchc 11mo ago
  I've had electro-acupuncture to as part of my recovery from shoulder surgery. One possible side-effect is that nerves can occasionally misfire or auto-fire. It could manifest itself as a tick or a twitch, where a specific muscle fires on its own without any stimulus (or the wrong stimulus). It goes away with extra physical training. I guess it is to be expected as the needle does cause some minor physical damage on insertion and removal.
froobius 11mo ago
Without a twin with the exact same injury and no intervention, to compare with, we don't know from this whether it was just the six extra weeks of healing that made the difference.
- fluoridation 11mo ago
  I mean, GP did open up by saying it was an anecdote, not that it was evidence that electrotherapy works.
  - froobius 11mo ago
    Yes but some anecdotes are closer to evidence than others. And people seem to be treating the above anecdote like it is evidence. Which we both agree it isn't. It isn't convincing given the time frame / lack of comparison.
    - simmerup 11mo ago
      People are adults and can be willing to take chances on anecdotes instead of waiting 30 years for science to maybe fund some studies that end up just as murky
      - deleted 11mo ago
        [deleted]
      - froobius 11mo ago
        Sure, I don't disagree with that. Although, in addition to labelling something as an anecdote, it's also useful to flag the confounding factors.
      - benterix 11mo ago
        My friend had a kid with a bad eczema. She tried everything. Desperate, she took her to one of these charlatans. He asked the girl to stand on a copper plate. After a few days the eczema disappeared. Now my friend totally believes in all this stuff.
        simmerup 11mo ago
        The risk to reward ratio there is off the charts though.
        rogerrogerr 11mo ago
        I mean, if I didn’t have anything else I was trying that could plausibly explain it, that’d be really hard to resist accepting as the cause. Totally understand it.
- nickff 11mo ago
  Even with a twin, you still wouldn’t “know”, because there might have been a difference in either their injury, their ability to heal (people can heal at different rates for many non-genetic reasons), or other, even ‘random’ factors. There is a well-known case study where a man ‘cracked’ each joint in one hand every day, and never ‘cracked’ any joint in the other hand for many years, to see whether it caused arthritis. He didn’t get arthritis in either hand. The only thing you can take away from that is that cracking the joints doesn’t necessarily cause arthritis for him. The person posted an anecdote; you don’t have to rely on in, but your dismissal is shallow and unhelpful.
  - im3w1l 11mo ago
    Imo that study puts an upper bound on how harmful cracking your joints can be.
  - selcuka 11mo ago
    This is easier to test than arthritis. A doctor can make incisions on both arms of the same person at the exact same depth and length, then apply electricity to one of the wounds and monitor healing time.
  - autoexec 11mo ago
    > The only thing you can take away from that is that cracking the joints doesn’t necessarily cause arthritis for him. It also tells us that cracking the joints doesn't appear to cause arthritis for everybody. If you're a knuckle cracker there's hope.
    - Arch-TK 11mo ago
      It tells you that with a sample size of 1. Maybe the person has a genetic mutation that protects against arthritis. Anecdotes aren't useless, but be very careful of _any_ conclusion you draw from them.
  - froobius 11mo ago
    So if you say something is an anecdote, then that anecdote is immune to any discussion or analysis? How about the idea that some anecdotes are better than others. E.g. "Anecdotal, but I took paracetamol and found it wasn't helpful for my pain. So I don't think it works." There's an anecdote for you, maybe you should stop taking paracetamol now. By your logic no one can discuss, analyse, or point out it any potential issues with it. And btw my stance is that the electrotherapy is interesting and plausibly could help. But tendonitis issues can heal with 6 weeks of basically rest, and that should be acknowledged in the discussion. (12 weeks in total, including the 6 weeks with a PT.)
- b112 11mo ago
  I do wonder if the first 6 weeks did the work, and the results appears in parallel with the alternate therapy. Of course, this sort of conversation is a prelude to "let's try alternate therapy first, for science!" with volunteers, so there is benefit.
- aklemm 11mo ago
  Indeed, the takeaway I get from this is how we tend to underestimate how long healing takes. People expect major injuries to be healed in 6 weeks, but it often takes that long to simply turn the corner toward full healing.
stronglikedan 11mo ago
> try dry needling Yeah, that's a "no" from me dawg. My PT stuck the needle in, and I was fine with that. Then he moved it a little, and I turned pale as a ghost and started sweating. Same thing happened when I had my nerve conduction study - never again. Needles going in and out is fine. Needles moving around under my skin ain't gonna happen any more. (Except at the dentist, but that's what the laughing gas is for!)
- drjasonharrison 11mo ago
  My experience with dry needling was just in and out, no movement laterally or in depth after insertion. I'm sorry you experienced this.
  - adastra22 11mo ago
    The whole point of the electro therapy is to make the muscle move though, so this is effectively the same (Galilean relativity) as moving the needle, right?
- bwoah 11mo ago
  I had the same thing happen once, and it was as fascinating as it was unsettling. Very slight movement of one needle in what seemed like a pretty inconsequential part of my body produced a near-instantaneous full-body reaction involving many systems.
  - fair_enough 11mo ago
    That's the magic of action potentials. As sodium ions (+1 charge) propagate, they dissipate throughout the cytosol and sometimes leak out of the cell membrane, but they also trigger their own influx of regenerative current by opening voltage-gated ion channels on the cell membrane. Think of it as a "signal repeater". As long as the initial stimulus is strong enough to trigger an action potential, the signal propagates all the way from the nerve ending to the central nervous system, and whatever response the CNS cooks up always makes it all the way to all the muscles it intends to trigger. Stated another way, the peripheral and central nervous system have enough of these signal repeaters for any signal to travel anywhere.
eth0up 11mo ago
Do you have any opinion on tens units? I have found them ineffective, but perhaps one can be modified? If you happen to be aware of a diy poor man's hack, maybe point me yonder. I gots lots o' problems. I'm also interested in zapping me 'ead, but that's more complicated and... seemingly expensive.
naasking 11mo ago
Tendons take a long time to heal, much longer than skeletal muscle damage. I'm sure electric stimulation helped, but it could have just taken 12 weeks for the tendons to recover.
ThePowerOfFuet 11mo ago
Here's that YouTube link, but with playback controls and without the tracking: https://youtube.com/watch?v=pTEPMgDdy2A https://youtube.com/watch?v=pTEPMgDdy2A
p1esk 11mo ago
I had the same problem with my elbow, electrotherapy did not help. Turned out it was systemic inflammation in my body that was preventing it from healing. Change of diet fixed it.
- ojo-rojo 11mo ago
  I'm interested in what you changed in your diet that helped. Would you be open to sharing? (I'm vegetarian, and eat a lot of salty and sugary foods I'm not too proud of, and would love to learn what works for other people.)
  - jimkri 11mo ago
    Something that has really helped with inflammation and improved my diet is a Spirulina and Chlorella algae supplement. I take it with Metamucil to help with absorption in the intestines as well. If you use the powder version, Metamucil covers up the umami taste, but the tablets are tasteless. Here are some studies to back it up: - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8212205/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8212205/ - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3136577/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3136577/ - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jff.2025.106796 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jff.2025.106796 This is what I buy from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FAB10ZI?th=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FAB10ZI?th=1
    - IndySun 11mo ago
      Do you know why taking Metamucil (or similar) helps with absorption?
      - jimkri 11mo ago
        This is from some research that shows spirulina can absorb toxins, and then when I take Metamucil, it helps to slow my body's processing of the supplement. What I have noticed is that the increase in nutrients will go through me super fast since I have a lower fiber diet, but when I have taken it with Metamucil, the fiber increase really slows down my bodily function. I figured if the algae is moving more slowly, it should also be able to have a higher absorption rate since it stays in my body longer. - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32749124/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32749124/ - This research paper talks about how spirulina has been shown to help with Heavy-Metal Toxicity. It's such a powerful supplement, and really interesting to learn about.

simmerup 11mo ago

WHat were the side effects?

glitchc 11mo ago
I've had electro-acupuncture to as part of my recovery from shoulder surgery. One possible side-effect is that nerves can occasionally misfire or auto-fire. It could manifest itself as a tick or a twitch, where a specific muscle fires on its own without any stimulus (or the wrong stimulus). It goes away with extra physical training. I guess it is to be expected as the needle does cause some minor physical damage on insertion and removal.

froobius 11mo ago

Without a twin with the exact same injury and no intervention, to compare with, we don't know from this whether it was just the six extra weeks of healing that made the difference.

fluoridation 11mo ago
I mean, GP did open up by saying it was an anecdote, not that it was evidence that electrotherapy works.
- froobius 11mo ago
  Yes but some anecdotes are closer to evidence than others. And people seem to be treating the above anecdote like it is evidence. Which we both agree it isn't. It isn't convincing given the time frame / lack of comparison.
  - simmerup 11mo ago
    People are adults and can be willing to take chances on anecdotes instead of waiting 30 years for science to maybe fund some studies that end up just as murky
    - deleted 11mo ago
      [deleted]
    - froobius 11mo ago
      Sure, I don't disagree with that. Although, in addition to labelling something as an anecdote, it's also useful to flag the confounding factors.
    - benterix 11mo ago
      My friend had a kid with a bad eczema. She tried everything. Desperate, she took her to one of these charlatans. He asked the girl to stand on a copper plate. After a few days the eczema disappeared. Now my friend totally believes in all this stuff.
      - simmerup 11mo ago
        The risk to reward ratio there is off the charts though.
      - rogerrogerr 11mo ago
        I mean, if I didn’t have anything else I was trying that could plausibly explain it, that’d be really hard to resist accepting as the cause. Totally understand it.
nickff 11mo ago
Even with a twin, you still wouldn’t “know”, because there might have been a difference in either their injury, their ability to heal (people can heal at different rates for many non-genetic reasons), or other, even ‘random’ factors. There is a well-known case study where a man ‘cracked’ each joint in one hand every day, and never ‘cracked’ any joint in the other hand for many years, to see whether it caused arthritis. He didn’t get arthritis in either hand. The only thing you can take away from that is that cracking the joints doesn’t necessarily cause arthritis for him. The person posted an anecdote; you don’t have to rely on in, but your dismissal is shallow and unhelpful.
- im3w1l 11mo ago
  Imo that study puts an upper bound on how harmful cracking your joints can be.
- selcuka 11mo ago
  This is easier to test than arthritis. A doctor can make incisions on both arms of the same person at the exact same depth and length, then apply electricity to one of the wounds and monitor healing time.
- autoexec 11mo ago
  > The only thing you can take away from that is that cracking the joints doesn’t necessarily cause arthritis for him. It also tells us that cracking the joints doesn't appear to cause arthritis for everybody. If you're a knuckle cracker there's hope.
  - Arch-TK 11mo ago
    It tells you that with a sample size of 1. Maybe the person has a genetic mutation that protects against arthritis. Anecdotes aren't useless, but be very careful of _any_ conclusion you draw from them.
- froobius 11mo ago
  So if you say something is an anecdote, then that anecdote is immune to any discussion or analysis? How about the idea that some anecdotes are better than others. E.g. "Anecdotal, but I took paracetamol and found it wasn't helpful for my pain. So I don't think it works." There's an anecdote for you, maybe you should stop taking paracetamol now. By your logic no one can discuss, analyse, or point out it any potential issues with it. And btw my stance is that the electrotherapy is interesting and plausibly could help. But tendonitis issues can heal with 6 weeks of basically rest, and that should be acknowledged in the discussion. (12 weeks in total, including the 6 weeks with a PT.)
b112 11mo ago
I do wonder if the first 6 weeks did the work, and the results appears in parallel with the alternate therapy. Of course, this sort of conversation is a prelude to "let's try alternate therapy first, for science!" with volunteers, so there is benefit.
aklemm 11mo ago
Indeed, the takeaway I get from this is how we tend to underestimate how long healing takes. People expect major injuries to be healed in 6 weeks, but it often takes that long to simply turn the corner toward full healing.

stronglikedan 11mo ago

> try dry needling Yeah, that's a "no" from me dawg. My PT stuck the needle in, and I was fine with that. Then he moved it a little, and I turned pale as a ghost and started sweating. Same thing happened when I had my nerve conduction study - never again. Needles going in and out is fine. Needles moving around under my skin ain't gonna happen any more. (Except at the dentist, but that's what the laughing gas is for!)

drjasonharrison 11mo ago
My experience with dry needling was just in and out, no movement laterally or in depth after insertion. I'm sorry you experienced this.
- adastra22 11mo ago
  The whole point of the electro therapy is to make the muscle move though, so this is effectively the same (Galilean relativity) as moving the needle, right?
bwoah 11mo ago
I had the same thing happen once, and it was as fascinating as it was unsettling. Very slight movement of one needle in what seemed like a pretty inconsequential part of my body produced a near-instantaneous full-body reaction involving many systems.
- fair_enough 11mo ago
  That's the magic of action potentials. As sodium ions (+1 charge) propagate, they dissipate throughout the cytosol and sometimes leak out of the cell membrane, but they also trigger their own influx of regenerative current by opening voltage-gated ion channels on the cell membrane. Think of it as a "signal repeater". As long as the initial stimulus is strong enough to trigger an action potential, the signal propagates all the way from the nerve ending to the central nervous system, and whatever response the CNS cooks up always makes it all the way to all the muscles it intends to trigger. Stated another way, the peripheral and central nervous system have enough of these signal repeaters for any signal to travel anywhere.

eth0up 11mo ago

Do you have any opinion on tens units? I have found them ineffective, but perhaps one can be modified? If you happen to be aware of a diy poor man's hack, maybe point me yonder. I gots lots o' problems. I'm also interested in zapping me 'ead, but that's more complicated and... seemingly expensive.

naasking 11mo ago

Tendons take a long time to heal, much longer than skeletal muscle damage. I'm sure electric stimulation helped, but it could have just taken 12 weeks for the tendons to recover.

ThePowerOfFuet 11mo ago

Here's that YouTube link, but with playback controls and without the tracking: https://youtube.com/watch?v=pTEPMgDdy2A https://youtube.com/watch?v=pTEPMgDdy2A

p1esk 11mo ago

I had the same problem with my elbow, electrotherapy did not help. Turned out it was systemic inflammation in my body that was preventing it from healing. Change of diet fixed it.

ojo-rojo 11mo ago
I'm interested in what you changed in your diet that helped. Would you be open to sharing? (I'm vegetarian, and eat a lot of salty and sugary foods I'm not too proud of, and would love to learn what works for other people.)
- jimkri 11mo ago
  Something that has really helped with inflammation and improved my diet is a Spirulina and Chlorella algae supplement. I take it with Metamucil to help with absorption in the intestines as well. If you use the powder version, Metamucil covers up the umami taste, but the tablets are tasteless. Here are some studies to back it up: - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8212205/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8212205/ - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3136577/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3136577/ - https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jff.2025.106796 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jff.2025.106796 This is what I buy from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FAB10ZI?th=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FAB10ZI?th=1
  - IndySun 11mo ago
    Do you know why taking Metamucil (or similar) helps with absorption?
    - jimkri 11mo ago
      This is from some research that shows spirulina can absorb toxins, and then when I take Metamucil, it helps to slow my body's processing of the supplement. What I have noticed is that the increase in nutrients will go through me super fast since I have a lower fiber diet, but when I have taken it with Metamucil, the fiber increase really slows down my bodily function. I figured if the algae is moving more slowly, it should also be able to have a higher absorption rate since it stays in my body longer. - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32749124/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32749124/ - This research paper talks about how spirulina has been shown to help with Heavy-Metal Toxicity. It's such a powerful supplement, and really interesting to learn about.