11 ms·

DeepMind was founded and is still headquartered in London.

logifail 1y ago
"DeepMind Technologies Limited, trading as Google DeepMind or simply DeepMind, is a British–American artificial intelligence research laboratory which serves as a subsidiary of Alphabet Inc. Founded in the UK in 2010, it was acquired by Google in 2014 and merged with Google AI's Google Brain division to become Google DeepMind in April 2023" Q: Is the HQ nominally being in London at all relevant given it was acquired by Alphabet/Google? I'm sure the accountants have the tax status all sorted by now...
- eab- 1y ago
  a lot of the researchers are still in london
  - logifail 1y ago
    I understand that iPhones are assembled in China, India and Vietnam. Would those countries issue press releases on "their leadership in iPhones"?
    - vouwfietsman 1y ago
      China, India and Vietnam absolutely lead in manufacturing iphones, yes.
      - logifail 1y ago
        in manufacturing <-- did you notice this bit? :) I was responding to the quote from Dame Wendy Hall claiming that that UK [has] "international leadership in AI"
    - cma 1y ago
      But in this case Deepmind's assembly (plugging in datacenter cables, etc.) is largely done in the US.
    - LeifCarrotson 1y ago
      I'm sure representatives of those countries love to say so, especially when talking to third parties about their expertise in manufacturing: "Yes, here in Zhengzhou, CN we're leaders in electronics manufacturing - the iPhone is assembled here at Foxconn!" However, Apple (headquartered in the US) loves to issue press releases describing how their products are "Designed by Apple in California[, USA]" even though a lot of work in the manufacturing, the software, and the design of subcomponents (or major components, I don't know how Apple is organized internally) are done in China, India and Vietnam as you listed. I'd argue that in the same way that Shenzen and Zhengzhou are leaders in electronics assembly because the bulk of the iPhone and other products are built there, regardless of the location of the headquarters of Apple, so to can London claim to be a leader in AI because the researchers for DeepMind are located in London, regardless of who owns the DeepMind brand. Buying a thing from another country doesn't make your location a leader in that thing.
      - logifail 1y ago
        > "we're leaders in electronics manufacturing" The UK wasn't claiming to be "leaders _in manufacturing_", they were claiming "international leadership in AI". As I said elsewhere in the thread, citation needed...
        atq2119 1y ago
        What you're replying to is an analogy, that you seem to completely fail to understand.
      - astrange 1y ago
        Apple's manufacturers don't do any of the work on the software or design. They don't even manufacture the highest value-add components; those are mostly done in Taiwan and Korea.
  - firefax 1y ago
    Also in general Google satellite offices often house the engineers of acquired startups who don't want to move to the mothership. It's not their primary purpose but it's one of the things they use them for.
    - logifail 1y ago
      > in general Google satellite offices often house the engineers of acquired startups who don't want to move to the mothership Would it be unfair to ask if (in this instance the UK's) satellite country taxpayers are subsidising corporate offices when the overall structures are arranged such that any overall corporation tax payable will be paid in the lowest-possible jurisdiction? See - for instance - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republi...
- shkkmo 1y ago
  It's not just the HQ, the only AI researcher I know personally is an American who moved to London to work on AI with DeepMind well after the acquisition.
  - logifail 1y ago
    The registered HQ and a large research center are in London, but ownership, executive control, substantial staffing, a big fraction of the training/serving compute, and the commercialization pathway run through Alphabet's U.S. operations, so the work is, in practical and legal senses, U.S.-based... See also https://gwern.net/doc/reinforcement-learning/deepmind/2019-deepmind-fullaccounts.pdf https://gwern.net/doc/reinforcement-learning/deepmind/2019-d... "As part of a wider group reorganisation, the Company distributed intellectual property assets which had a nil book value to another group undertaking on 31 October 2019." Honestly, claiming DeepMind is still some scrappy London-based startup is quite unfortunate :/
    - homefree 1y ago
      +1 Europe (especially) and the UK largely don't matter - it's a battle between the US and China, the gap will only grow wider and faster than it already has (and it's already getting really noticeable). I attribute it mostly to a cultural problem and I don't think they can fix their politics from the downward spiral they're on. It's why they have a number that rounds to zero of billion dollar software companies and why all their ambitious people do their best to get to the US.
    - klelatti 1y ago
      > The registered HQ and a large research center are in London ... > so the work is, in practical and legal senses, U.S.-based... These two statements literally contradict each other in both cases.
      - logifail 1y ago
        > These two statements literally contradict each other in both cases Welcome to how multinational corporate entities structure their tax affairs! You might like to start by reading https://taxjustice.net/2024/11/06/corporate-tax-haven-index-indicator-deep-dive-royalties-and-services/ https://taxjustice.net/2024/11/06/corporate-tax-haven-index-... although there are many others....

"DeepMind Technologies Limited, trading as Google DeepMind or simply DeepMind, is a British–American artificial intelligence research laboratory which serves as a subsidiary of Alphabet Inc. Founded in the UK in 2010, it was acquired by Google in 2014 and merged with Google AI's Google Brain division to become Google DeepMind in April 2023" Q: Is the HQ nominally being in London at all relevant given it was acquired by Alphabet/Google? I'm sure the accountants have the tax status all sorted by now...

eab- 1y ago
a lot of the researchers are still in london
- logifail 1y ago
  I understand that iPhones are assembled in China, India and Vietnam. Would those countries issue press releases on "their leadership in iPhones"?
  - vouwfietsman 1y ago
    China, India and Vietnam absolutely lead in manufacturing iphones, yes.
    - logifail 1y ago
      in manufacturing <-- did you notice this bit? :) I was responding to the quote from Dame Wendy Hall claiming that that UK [has] "international leadership in AI"
  - cma 1y ago
    But in this case Deepmind's assembly (plugging in datacenter cables, etc.) is largely done in the US.
  - LeifCarrotson 1y ago
    I'm sure representatives of those countries love to say so, especially when talking to third parties about their expertise in manufacturing: "Yes, here in Zhengzhou, CN we're leaders in electronics manufacturing - the iPhone is assembled here at Foxconn!" However, Apple (headquartered in the US) loves to issue press releases describing how their products are "Designed by Apple in California[, USA]" even though a lot of work in the manufacturing, the software, and the design of subcomponents (or major components, I don't know how Apple is organized internally) are done in China, India and Vietnam as you listed. I'd argue that in the same way that Shenzen and Zhengzhou are leaders in electronics assembly because the bulk of the iPhone and other products are built there, regardless of the location of the headquarters of Apple, so to can London claim to be a leader in AI because the researchers for DeepMind are located in London, regardless of who owns the DeepMind brand. Buying a thing from another country doesn't make your location a leader in that thing.
    - logifail 1y ago
      > "we're leaders in electronics manufacturing" The UK wasn't claiming to be "leaders _in manufacturing_", they were claiming "international leadership in AI". As I said elsewhere in the thread, citation needed...
      - atq2119 1y ago
        What you're replying to is an analogy, that you seem to completely fail to understand.
    - astrange 1y ago
      Apple's manufacturers don't do any of the work on the software or design. They don't even manufacture the highest value-add components; those are mostly done in Taiwan and Korea.
- firefax 1y ago
  Also in general Google satellite offices often house the engineers of acquired startups who don't want to move to the mothership. It's not their primary purpose but it's one of the things they use them for.
  - logifail 1y ago
    > in general Google satellite offices often house the engineers of acquired startups who don't want to move to the mothership Would it be unfair to ask if (in this instance the UK's) satellite country taxpayers are subsidising corporate offices when the overall structures are arranged such that any overall corporation tax payable will be paid in the lowest-possible jurisdiction? See - for instance - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republi...
shkkmo 1y ago
It's not just the HQ, the only AI researcher I know personally is an American who moved to London to work on AI with DeepMind well after the acquisition.
- logifail 1y ago
  The registered HQ and a large research center are in London, but ownership, executive control, substantial staffing, a big fraction of the training/serving compute, and the commercialization pathway run through Alphabet's U.S. operations, so the work is, in practical and legal senses, U.S.-based... See also https://gwern.net/doc/reinforcement-learning/deepmind/2019-deepmind-fullaccounts.pdf https://gwern.net/doc/reinforcement-learning/deepmind/2019-d... "As part of a wider group reorganisation, the Company distributed intellectual property assets which had a nil book value to another group undertaking on 31 October 2019." Honestly, claiming DeepMind is still some scrappy London-based startup is quite unfortunate :/
  - homefree 1y ago
    +1 Europe (especially) and the UK largely don't matter - it's a battle between the US and China, the gap will only grow wider and faster than it already has (and it's already getting really noticeable). I attribute it mostly to a cultural problem and I don't think they can fix their politics from the downward spiral they're on. It's why they have a number that rounds to zero of billion dollar software companies and why all their ambitious people do their best to get to the US.
  - klelatti 1y ago
    > The registered HQ and a large research center are in London ... > so the work is, in practical and legal senses, U.S.-based... These two statements literally contradict each other in both cases.
    - logifail 1y ago
      > These two statements literally contradict each other in both cases Welcome to how multinational corporate entities structure their tax affairs! You might like to start by reading https://taxjustice.net/2024/11/06/corporate-tax-haven-index-indicator-deep-dive-royalties-and-services/ https://taxjustice.net/2024/11/06/corporate-tax-haven-index-... although there are many others....