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What this shows to me, as someone who has committed some of the unholy crimes above, is that people want their system, however esoteric, to come naturally to th

What this shows to me, as someone who has committed some of the unholy crimes above, is that people want their system, however esoteric, to come naturally to them. I think reading docs, understanding a new system which someone else has designed, and fitting one's brain into _their_ organisational structure is the hard part. Harder than designing one's own system. It's the reason many don't stick with an off-the-shelf app. Including Org mode.

fmbb 1y ago
Also, if you are a developer by trade a lot of these features are quick and easy to implement.
- barbazoo 1y ago
  And might even be fun to implement and maintain.
  - benreesman 1y ago
    I think we have a winner. This sort of personal toolsmithing is fun, and you can try out some new programming language or whatever. We all love a good excuse to build something small-to-medium sized for our own perfect "tailor fit" preferences. All the excuses about other tools not being adequate are just what we need to say to ourselves to justify the time ;)
    - jama211 1y ago
      This starts to sound like something someone might waste time building instead of actually being productive…
      - barbazoo 1y ago
        In terms of earning money, but surely that's not what's it's all about, is it?
        jack_pp 1y ago
        in terms of actually building something useful
        mewpmewp2 1y ago
        Does everything you build must be useful? What if it's just really fun?
        walt_grata 1y ago
        Define useful and who it has to be useful to? If building it helps me improve my craft, let's me decompress and have so fun. That's useful
        MrGilbert 1y ago
        If the tool brings you (you, as in: the one building it) joy and gives you a chance to let your mind float, then yes, it is useful. Just not for others. And that's fine.
- russellbeattie 1y ago
  Exactly. Most people wish they could customize their Todo app or system to their specific preference or need, but have no way of making it happen. Devs can, so they do. What's interesting is AI is going to change this. Entering a prompt for an app that has all the features you want is already pretty trivial, and will only get better.
  - skydhash 1y ago
    Which is why everyone likes spreadsheets. You learn a few formula and styling rules, and you’ve got a hammer for every nail that’s been bothering you (if it was actually a screw…shrugs).
potatolicious 1y ago
The term that comes to mind, and one of my favorite concepts, is "progressive disclosure", which is a concept we really ought to be more mindful of. One of the perks of just-a-text-file-with-a-bunch-of-addons is that it enables progressive disclosure - it takes no learning curve to just get in and use the tool on a basic level, but additional complexity (and power) can be introduced over time. The problem with a purpose-built app is that there's a minimum level of new concepts to learn before the tool is even minimally useful, and that's a barrier to adoption. A good example of this in action is something like Markdown. It's just text and will show up fine without you learning anything, but as you pick up more syntax it builds on top - and if you learn some markup syntax but not others, it doesn't prevent you from using the subset you know. There is a clear path to adding new knowledge and ability.
- datameta 1y ago
  Right, instead of fomo over not using the extra features of utilizing the right flow - people tend to experience the want/need to incrementally increase complexity when using roll-your-own software
- BrtByte 1y ago
  Markdown is a perfect analogy
Aurornis 1y ago
> What this shows to me, as someone who has committed some of the unholy crimes above, is that people want their system, however esoteric, to come naturally to them I think this is a vocal minority. Outside of internet comment sections, most everyone I know doesn’t care that much about their todo list software. The most productive people I ever worked with all had really minimal productivity software. For one person it was a Google doc with nested lists. I know several people who preferred physical sticky notes or 3x5 note cards. A lot of the people I’ve worked with who built elaborate productivity systems and custom software weren’t all that productive. They seemingly spent as much time doing productivity rituals and rearranging their productivity software stack as they did doing actual work. I count the really heavy Notion users in this category because I’ve recently been pulling my hair out dealing with a couple PMs who think “reorganizing Notion” and adding more rules for Notion is a good use of their time each week. The most extreme example I remember was the eccentric coworker who was building an AI-powered productivity tool that was supposed to optimize his todo lists and schedule them according to his daily rhythms. He spent so much time working on it that our manager had to remind him daily to stay on track with his real work. He was obsessed with “productivity tooling” but the productivity was secondary. Not everyone is like this, but it happens a lot.
- kilroy123 1y ago
  I strongly agree. I think it's a form of procrastinating. I read about all these complex systems for notes and second brains and whatnot. All procrastinating imho.
  - spaceisballer 1y ago
    That’s been my personal experience. Spend plenty of time looking at all kind of options to optimize my ir my teams workflow. Then just fallback on pen and paper or some very simple excel spreadsheet. Something thinking about being more productive makes you feel productive.
    - 9dev 1y ago
      Sounds similar to playing video games: the rules are simple, so once you understand them, you can feel mighty and powerful simply by accomplishing banal tasks. Makes for a great dopamine rush.
miroljub 1y ago
The whole point of org-mode is that it's so malleable, that you can extend it to be whatever you want it to be, much easier than writing your own, ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of org-mode.
- reddit_clone 1y ago
  Org-mode is the most appropriate answer. It is as simple or as sophisticated as we want it to be. Obviously one needs to be an Emacs user first
  - jorvi 1y ago
    > Obviously one needs to be an Emacs user first This makes it so infuriating that the top comment on Todo systems is almost invariably "just org-mode lol". Same as remote editing "just TRAMP lol". I am not going to completely change my editor and rebuild two decades of optimization just to use two Emacs tools. On-topic: TickTick or Todoist with a slimmed-down "Getting Things Done" system works really well. Almost no learning curve, and you get to free up so much mental bandwidth vis a vis remembering things and prioritizing things. And you don't have to do hamfisted tricks to make a 'simple' .txt system work. Bliss.
    - spauldo 1y ago
      Agreed on TRAMP. It's great and all, but not worth abandoning your toolong. org-mode though... It's called Emacs' killer app for a reason. Even if I only used Emacs for org-mode it'd be worth it. And I don't even use the productivity features.
    - eadmund 1y ago
      > I am not going to completely change my editor and rebuild two decades of optimization just to use two Emacs tools. Change your editor and rebuild two decades of optimisation in order to use Emacs, two Emacs tools, and also every other Emacs tool out there. Org Mode, TRAMP, Magit, gptel, eglot, flycheck, elfeed, ERC, Emms, EWW … there are a ton of reasons to use Emacs. Or you can keep using less-capable systems and being annoyed when folks recommend that you upgrade.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
j45 1y ago
Systems you design yourself for yourself naturally will come easier to us.
docmars 1y ago
Yep, at the risk of repeating what you said: I think this is why so many project management / todo apps exist with their own flavor of the very basics. It's a reflection of those wishes that feel natural to us individually, and it just so happens many of these apps mesh well with our model of thinking and organizing. This is also why it's so difficult to get teams on the same page about project management in their respective workplaces.
cwnyth 1y ago
I think in part because larger systems aren't typically custom made to the user's exact workflow (especially because users don't typically have one single workflow anyway!). So not only do I have to get into someone else's mind, but it feels ill-fitted to my own mind. Thus, it's also more inefficient.
nottorp 1y ago
When you start structuring your TODO list, you will miss adding stuff that isn't easy to fit into the structure to said list. And possibly regret it 3 months later...
basch 1y ago
What I gather is people really like the blank whiteboard. There’s something about Notepad and Excel, the freedom, the linitlessness, of having a blank canvas and being able to do anything. Todo software is too opinionated. It’s not flexible enough to allow you to break rules. You can’t move things around in a way that allows you to control visual white space between entries. Everything “is something” (a task, an event) vs just being (text.)
cjonas 1y ago
Ya, I don't need my todo list to have "docs" at all.
conception 1y ago
Note taking and task management are two things which everyone has a slightly different style and need. There is no one size fits all and in a group someone will always find some aspect lacking.

fmbb 1y ago

Also, if you are a developer by trade a lot of these features are quick and easy to implement.

barbazoo 1y ago
And might even be fun to implement and maintain.
- benreesman 1y ago
  I think we have a winner. This sort of personal toolsmithing is fun, and you can try out some new programming language or whatever. We all love a good excuse to build something small-to-medium sized for our own perfect "tailor fit" preferences. All the excuses about other tools not being adequate are just what we need to say to ourselves to justify the time ;)
  - jama211 1y ago
    This starts to sound like something someone might waste time building instead of actually being productive…
    - barbazoo 1y ago
      In terms of earning money, but surely that's not what's it's all about, is it?
      - jack_pp 1y ago
        in terms of actually building something useful
        mewpmewp2 1y ago
        Does everything you build must be useful? What if it's just really fun?
        walt_grata 1y ago
        Define useful and who it has to be useful to? If building it helps me improve my craft, let's me decompress and have so fun. That's useful
        MrGilbert 1y ago
        If the tool brings you (you, as in: the one building it) joy and gives you a chance to let your mind float, then yes, it is useful. Just not for others. And that's fine.
russellbeattie 1y ago
Exactly. Most people wish they could customize their Todo app or system to their specific preference or need, but have no way of making it happen. Devs can, so they do. What's interesting is AI is going to change this. Entering a prompt for an app that has all the features you want is already pretty trivial, and will only get better.
- skydhash 1y ago
  Which is why everyone likes spreadsheets. You learn a few formula and styling rules, and you’ve got a hammer for every nail that’s been bothering you (if it was actually a screw…shrugs).

potatolicious 1y ago

The term that comes to mind, and one of my favorite concepts, is "progressive disclosure", which is a concept we really ought to be more mindful of. One of the perks of just-a-text-file-with-a-bunch-of-addons is that it enables progressive disclosure - it takes no learning curve to just get in and use the tool on a basic level, but additional complexity (and power) can be introduced over time. The problem with a purpose-built app is that there's a minimum level of new concepts to learn before the tool is even minimally useful, and that's a barrier to adoption. A good example of this in action is something like Markdown. It's just text and will show up fine without you learning anything, but as you pick up more syntax it builds on top - and if you learn some markup syntax but not others, it doesn't prevent you from using the subset you know. There is a clear path to adding new knowledge and ability.

datameta 1y ago
Right, instead of fomo over not using the extra features of utilizing the right flow - people tend to experience the want/need to incrementally increase complexity when using roll-your-own software
BrtByte 1y ago
Markdown is a perfect analogy

Aurornis 1y ago

> What this shows to me, as someone who has committed some of the unholy crimes above, is that people want their system, however esoteric, to come naturally to them I think this is a vocal minority. Outside of internet comment sections, most everyone I know doesn’t care that much about their todo list software. The most productive people I ever worked with all had really minimal productivity software. For one person it was a Google doc with nested lists. I know several people who preferred physical sticky notes or 3x5 note cards. A lot of the people I’ve worked with who built elaborate productivity systems and custom software weren’t all that productive. They seemingly spent as much time doing productivity rituals and rearranging their productivity software stack as they did doing actual work. I count the really heavy Notion users in this category because I’ve recently been pulling my hair out dealing with a couple PMs who think “reorganizing Notion” and adding more rules for Notion is a good use of their time each week. The most extreme example I remember was the eccentric coworker who was building an AI-powered productivity tool that was supposed to optimize his todo lists and schedule them according to his daily rhythms. He spent so much time working on it that our manager had to remind him daily to stay on track with his real work. He was obsessed with “productivity tooling” but the productivity was secondary. Not everyone is like this, but it happens a lot.

kilroy123 1y ago
I strongly agree. I think it's a form of procrastinating. I read about all these complex systems for notes and second brains and whatnot. All procrastinating imho.
- spaceisballer 1y ago
  That’s been my personal experience. Spend plenty of time looking at all kind of options to optimize my ir my teams workflow. Then just fallback on pen and paper or some very simple excel spreadsheet. Something thinking about being more productive makes you feel productive.
  - 9dev 1y ago
    Sounds similar to playing video games: the rules are simple, so once you understand them, you can feel mighty and powerful simply by accomplishing banal tasks. Makes for a great dopamine rush.

miroljub 1y ago

The whole point of org-mode is that it's so malleable, that you can extend it to be whatever you want it to be, much easier than writing your own, ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of org-mode.

reddit_clone 1y ago
Org-mode is the most appropriate answer. It is as simple or as sophisticated as we want it to be. Obviously one needs to be an Emacs user first
- jorvi 1y ago
  > Obviously one needs to be an Emacs user first This makes it so infuriating that the top comment on Todo systems is almost invariably "just org-mode lol". Same as remote editing "just TRAMP lol". I am not going to completely change my editor and rebuild two decades of optimization just to use two Emacs tools. On-topic: TickTick or Todoist with a slimmed-down "Getting Things Done" system works really well. Almost no learning curve, and you get to free up so much mental bandwidth vis a vis remembering things and prioritizing things. And you don't have to do hamfisted tricks to make a 'simple' .txt system work. Bliss.
  - spauldo 1y ago
    Agreed on TRAMP. It's great and all, but not worth abandoning your toolong. org-mode though... It's called Emacs' killer app for a reason. Even if I only used Emacs for org-mode it'd be worth it. And I don't even use the productivity features.
  - eadmund 1y ago
    > I am not going to completely change my editor and rebuild two decades of optimization just to use two Emacs tools. Change your editor and rebuild two decades of optimisation in order to use Emacs, two Emacs tools, and also every other Emacs tool out there. Org Mode, TRAMP, Magit, gptel, eglot, flycheck, elfeed, ERC, Emms, EWW … there are a ton of reasons to use Emacs. Or you can keep using less-capable systems and being annoyed when folks recommend that you upgrade.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

j45 1y ago

Systems you design yourself for yourself naturally will come easier to us.

docmars 1y ago

Yep, at the risk of repeating what you said: I think this is why so many project management / todo apps exist with their own flavor of the very basics. It's a reflection of those wishes that feel natural to us individually, and it just so happens many of these apps mesh well with our model of thinking and organizing. This is also why it's so difficult to get teams on the same page about project management in their respective workplaces.

cwnyth 1y ago

I think in part because larger systems aren't typically custom made to the user's exact workflow (especially because users don't typically have one single workflow anyway!). So not only do I have to get into someone else's mind, but it feels ill-fitted to my own mind. Thus, it's also more inefficient.

nottorp 1y ago

When you start structuring your TODO list, you will miss adding stuff that isn't easy to fit into the structure to said list. And possibly regret it 3 months later...

basch 1y ago

What I gather is people really like the blank whiteboard. There’s something about Notepad and Excel, the freedom, the linitlessness, of having a blank canvas and being able to do anything. Todo software is too opinionated. It’s not flexible enough to allow you to break rules. You can’t move things around in a way that allows you to control visual white space between entries. Everything “is something” (a task, an event) vs just being (text.)

cjonas 1y ago

Ya, I don't need my todo list to have "docs" at all.

conception 1y ago

Note taking and task management are two things which everyone has a slightly different style and need. There is no one size fits all and in a group someone will always find some aspect lacking.