6 ms·

if the issue was just using the trademark and likeness, why not just remove those issues of contention, and keep the site up and running under a different domai

if the issue was just using the trademark and likeness, why not just remove those issues of contention, and keep the site up and running under a different domain? it wasn't mentioned that they had an issue with the data scraping.

lafond 1y ago
Author here! After receiving the C&D, the method with which I was getting the data was removed/patched (which I'm now noticing was not mentioned in the blog post...) I did ask them if there was any thing I could to keep it up and never received a response, and rather than playing a cat & mouse game of "now you don't have our branding, but you are scraping are data so here's another C&D" I just took it down :)
- xyst 1y ago
  Probably because of you, the legal dogs hired by Waffle House probably updated their ToS to include "unauthorized scraping"
  - dylan604 1y ago
    If the WH legal dogs needed this as an the impetus for that change in 2020s, then they aren't very good legal dogs. ToS updates are pretty common, and if some one didn't like scraping, you'd think that unauthorized text would be added some time ago. It's not like scraping is a new thing. If they are savvy legal teams, this should pretty much be boiler plate language. Only neophyte legal teams would not expect scraping as something to expend ink.
  - edm0nd 1y ago
    its still okay to break websites ToS and AUP though.
  - bicx 1y ago
    As long as you didn’t actively agree to anything, you are not held to the Terms of Service for a public website. There are restrictions on what you can do with the data, mostly around direct competition with the source (I’m not a lawyer, so DYOR). The average scraping volume from Google and AI companies would make an indie site’s scraping volume look minuscule. Check out this wild case to see how far you can go with scraping and remain legal. It’s surprising. https://techcrunch.com/2024/02/26/meta-drops-lawsuit-against-web-scraping-firm-bright-data-that-sold-millions-of-instagram-records/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/02/26/meta-drops-lawsuit-against...
- AStonesThrow 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - recursive 1y ago
    What a cool and interesting collection of facts! Have you found any problems?
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- jeron 1y ago
  this is a bummer - scraping is one thing but this was free marketing for them. If only they put their marketing department in front of their legal department (assuming they have a marketing department)
  - itishappy 1y ago
    No guarantee that such marketing will be good, however.
    - jjmarr 1y ago
      "Waffle House is so reliably open that FEMA uses it to measure hurricane devastation" is a great piece of marketing. If you're tired, hung over, or really hungry, you can always stumble into a Waffle House at any time and get something to eat. If you can't, there are bigger problems in your life (hurricane, zombies, tornadoes).
      - itishappy 1y ago
        In situations like this I always think to myself "what would Reddit say?" Then I get a bit depressed.
      - tpmoney 1y ago
        It doesn't take much for that to become "TIL Waffle House's owners are so greedy they force their employees to work even during a natural disaster when other businesses are closed". No it's pretty obvious why Waffle House would want to stay far away from this sort of publicity and have very tight control on anything said about it, especially if that publicity looks like it comes from them or is in any way endorsed by them.
        devilbunny 1y ago
        Except for the long list of stories that have detailed how they actually do this - they have special disaster teams that fly or drive in for the purpose. And where do all the power and other utility linemen eat between their triple-pay shifts in a disaster area? At Waffle House, because it’s always open.
- sdenton4 1y ago
  I believe scraping is generally ok - there's actual trademark law about trademarks, which is why you got a c+d about trademark usage, instead of a general 'stop what you're doing we don't like it' c+d. A good point of comparison is steam db (and other similar sites), which uses Steam public info to triangulate market info that isn't immediately apparent. https://steamdb.info/ https://steamdb.info/
  - jjmarr 1y ago
    The first sentence on SteamDB is: > This third-party website gives you better insight into the Steam platform and everything in its database. It clearly states that it's not affiliated with Steam and is a separate organization. There's also a further disclaimer in the footer of the page. In contrast, the "Waffle House Index" had the Waffle House logo at the top of the page, with zero explanation or elaboration on who created the website.
    - sdenton4 1y ago
      Yeah, exactly - fix the trademark problem by not using the logo and starting clearly who you are, and then go to town...
  - lurkshark 1y ago
    Unfortunately Craigslist pushed a precedent that puts scraping into risky territory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craigslist_Inc._v._3Taps_Inc https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craigslist_Inc._v._3Taps_Inc. Obviously this was a much different circumstance than a not-for-profit side project but still something to keep in mind.
    - cinntaile 1y ago
      All the AI companies are doing it so it must be fine. Right?
      - genewitch 1y ago
        Right, unironically.
foobarchu 1y ago
How would that work? The point of waffle house index is the association with waffle house. Without that, you have a unitless statistic unless you assume every visitor is already in the know.

lafond 1y ago

Author here! After receiving the C&D, the method with which I was getting the data was removed/patched (which I'm now noticing was not mentioned in the blog post...) I did ask them if there was any thing I could to keep it up and never received a response, and rather than playing a cat & mouse game of "now you don't have our branding, but you are scraping are data so here's another C&D" I just took it down :)

xyst 1y ago
Probably because of you, the legal dogs hired by Waffle House probably updated their ToS to include "unauthorized scraping"
- dylan604 1y ago
  If the WH legal dogs needed this as an the impetus for that change in 2020s, then they aren't very good legal dogs. ToS updates are pretty common, and if some one didn't like scraping, you'd think that unauthorized text would be added some time ago. It's not like scraping is a new thing. If they are savvy legal teams, this should pretty much be boiler plate language. Only neophyte legal teams would not expect scraping as something to expend ink.
- edm0nd 1y ago
  its still okay to break websites ToS and AUP though.
- bicx 1y ago
  As long as you didn’t actively agree to anything, you are not held to the Terms of Service for a public website. There are restrictions on what you can do with the data, mostly around direct competition with the source (I’m not a lawyer, so DYOR). The average scraping volume from Google and AI companies would make an indie site’s scraping volume look minuscule. Check out this wild case to see how far you can go with scraping and remain legal. It’s surprising. https://techcrunch.com/2024/02/26/meta-drops-lawsuit-against-web-scraping-firm-bright-data-that-sold-millions-of-instagram-records/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/02/26/meta-drops-lawsuit-against...
AStonesThrow 1y ago
[flagged]
- recursive 1y ago
  What a cool and interesting collection of facts! Have you found any problems?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
jeron 1y ago
this is a bummer - scraping is one thing but this was free marketing for them. If only they put their marketing department in front of their legal department (assuming they have a marketing department)
- itishappy 1y ago
  No guarantee that such marketing will be good, however.
  - jjmarr 1y ago
    "Waffle House is so reliably open that FEMA uses it to measure hurricane devastation" is a great piece of marketing. If you're tired, hung over, or really hungry, you can always stumble into a Waffle House at any time and get something to eat. If you can't, there are bigger problems in your life (hurricane, zombies, tornadoes).
    - itishappy 1y ago
      In situations like this I always think to myself "what would Reddit say?" Then I get a bit depressed.
    - tpmoney 1y ago
      It doesn't take much for that to become "TIL Waffle House's owners are so greedy they force their employees to work even during a natural disaster when other businesses are closed". No it's pretty obvious why Waffle House would want to stay far away from this sort of publicity and have very tight control on anything said about it, especially if that publicity looks like it comes from them or is in any way endorsed by them.
      - devilbunny 1y ago
        Except for the long list of stories that have detailed how they actually do this - they have special disaster teams that fly or drive in for the purpose. And where do all the power and other utility linemen eat between their triple-pay shifts in a disaster area? At Waffle House, because it’s always open.
sdenton4 1y ago
I believe scraping is generally ok - there's actual trademark law about trademarks, which is why you got a c+d about trademark usage, instead of a general 'stop what you're doing we don't like it' c+d. A good point of comparison is steam db (and other similar sites), which uses Steam public info to triangulate market info that isn't immediately apparent. https://steamdb.info/ https://steamdb.info/
- jjmarr 1y ago
  The first sentence on SteamDB is: > This third-party website gives you better insight into the Steam platform and everything in its database. It clearly states that it's not affiliated with Steam and is a separate organization. There's also a further disclaimer in the footer of the page. In contrast, the "Waffle House Index" had the Waffle House logo at the top of the page, with zero explanation or elaboration on who created the website.
  - sdenton4 1y ago
    Yeah, exactly - fix the trademark problem by not using the logo and starting clearly who you are, and then go to town...
- lurkshark 1y ago
  Unfortunately Craigslist pushed a precedent that puts scraping into risky territory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craigslist_Inc._v._3Taps_Inc https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craigslist_Inc._v._3Taps_Inc. Obviously this was a much different circumstance than a not-for-profit side project but still something to keep in mind.
  - cinntaile 1y ago
    All the AI companies are doing it so it must be fine. Right?
    - genewitch 1y ago
      Right, unironically.

foobarchu 1y ago

How would that work? The point of waffle house index is the association with waffle house. Without that, you have a unitless statistic unless you assume every visitor is already in the know.