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I generally drive at or below the speed limit. This is to reduce fuel and improve safety. On a multiple lane road, I'm nearly always on the right (slow) lane.

I generally drive at or below the speed limit. This is to reduce fuel and improve safety. On a multiple lane road, I'm nearly always on the right (slow) lane. Unfortunately, this safety measure is usually torpedoed by other drivers. People (usually driving a 'light truck' (an SUV or pickup)) will drive at a single car length behind me. Even on multi-lane roads. If I had to slam on my brakes, I'd be at risk in my sedan. I absolutely would support wide proliferation of speed cameras. It would be easy, profitable, promote safety, and we could do it today. It would take zero extra policing (in fact, it'd probably reduce workload on police). I acknowledge that you can fight this kicking and screaming with speed enforcement measures—but I think there's two things that are causing people to drive faster: Wide, straight, flat roads that allow no speed reference, and large sealed vehicles that reduces perceived speed. Change these, and I think that will be a great step to reducing "pedestrian fatalities" (or to call it like it is: people getting murdered due to carelessness and impatience).

nradov 1y ago
People who drive below the posted speed limit (road boulders) are a menace. They increase the risk to everyone else as other drivers try to get around them.
- benabbott 1y ago
  Might I direct you to the text on the sign, Speed "Limit"? The ones causing danger are the drivers attempting to pass dangerously, not the person driving slowly. Do cyclists cause danger by using roadways? Or is it the people driving multiple-ton vehicles?
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    If you can't understand the subtle, but still fairly obvious and unmistakeable difference between being a net increase in danger/problem potential without a) breaking the rules b) personally increasing your own financial liability for any bad outcomes you probably ought not to be driving. There's a reason tractors get triangles and oversize stuff gets highly visible signs.
  - zdragnar 1y ago
    If you are driving slower than other traffic, under the speed limit, and there is not a weather condition or a road impediment, that is also illegal in most (or all?) states. > Do cyclists cause danger by using roadways? They are also expected to move with traffic if they are taking up a lane. This is among the reasons non-motorized vehicles are not allowed on freeways. Anyone moving slower than expected are intrinsically an impediment and a hazard, just the same as anyone speeding or otherwise driving recklessly.
    - californical 1y ago
      Just to be clear - your statements about the law are all completely untrue, except for some states having a few specific highways with a “minimum speed”. For example, a highway near me says “left lane minimum speed 45mph” - where the speed of the road is 65. Unless you can find some laws that specify that driving below the speed limit is illegal?
      - nradov 1y ago
        Many states have laws against obstructing traffic. Most of them don't mention a specific minimum speed so enforcement is largely at the discretion of law enforcement officers. Personally I would like to see strict enforcement of those laws with tickets given out to anyone who intentionally impedes the flow of traffic.
        potato3732842 1y ago
        They should use the same fine schedule as speeding. It ought to be just as lucrative for a cop to nab someone who's unreasonably stopping at a merge as it is to nab someone who's going a few over.
        californical 1y ago
        Obstructing traffic is very different than “driving more slowly than the person behind you wants”. Obstructing means blocking, not making them wait 30 seconds for a good chance to go around. If you are moving a large item that is fragile, are you allowed to go 35mph in a 45mph zone to reduce the risk of damaging the fragile item? Or is that illegal too? Or what if one of your passengers gets car sick easily? In fact, there are some winding mountain roads in California where the speed limit is 55, but if you go that fast, you’re suicidal because there are no guard rails and very sharp turns. Occasionally, someone mildly suicidal will come up behind you. Is it illegal to drive 15mph in that 55 zone? Safety is prioritized above speed, suggesting otherwise is unhinged and antisocial.
  - rcoveson 1y ago
    Assigning blame doesn't do anything for safety, even if you're right. Where I live, by far the safest thing to do is to drive ~4 mph over the limit on all non-residential roads. If you drive below or even right at the limit, you will be tailgated or passed with far greater frequency. That behavior is out of your control, at least on the road. You can push for more consistent enforcement while you're not driving (I'm inclined to do so myself), but while you're behind the wheel, the only behavior you can change is your own.
    - tshaddox 1y ago
      > Assigning blame doesn't do anything for safety, even if you're right. It's reasonable to talk about which party should be the one to change their behavior, and that's essentially the same thing as assigning blame.
      - rcoveson 1y ago
        No disagreement here, but where the literal rubber hits the road, you still have to decide how to act when the ambient semi-aggressive driving population continues to behave in the way that they do. Will you blamelessly be road raged at 50-100% more often than a more moderate driver (who drives at the most popular speed, though it may be over the limit) just because if an accident does happen it will be the road rager's fault? It's a very frustrating social problem. Obviously we can't let ourselves be held collectively hostage by bad actors in all situations. But I would still predict that there are some situations where the bad actor population is so large and "mildly-bad" that indefinitely giving in to their implicit demands is the right game theoretic choice.
        tshaddox 1y ago
        > But I would still predict that there are some situations where the bad actor population is so large and "mildly-bad" that indefinitely giving in to their implicit demands is the right game theoretic choice. Game theory is quite a big thing, that's for sure. And it's no surprise that actors will tend towards these situations where you're tempted to think "eh, letting them do this bad thing with impunity feels like the right game theoretic choice, because it's right at the limit of not being bad enough to illicit a response." And yet, there's a reason for things like territorial behavior in the animal kingdom, where an animal will defend minor territory disputes at great personal cost even when the cost of losing a small amount of territory seems much smaller.
  - cameldrv 1y ago
    Above the limit, I agree that people speeding bear primary responsibility, although if you're not going the limit in the left lane, you are creating an obstacle for sure. If you're going significantly below the limit though, what's the reason? The whole point of a car is to get you from point A to point B quickly.
- andyjohnson0 1y ago
  > People who drive below the posted speed limit are a menace Its the speed limit. Its not the speed that everyone has to drive at in all circumstances and conditions.
- like_any_other 1y ago
  Is everyone in the US expected to drive at least the speed limit on motorways? Here in Europe, there are always vehicles going slower - buses, trucks, vans, or just older cars or drivers not in a hurry. If the limit is 130 km/h, you routinely encounter vehicles going 90-110. The menace are drivers not adjusting to the realities of the road.
  - ty6853 1y ago
    A large part of the US depends on 2 lane highways on which overtaking slow vehicles can be a dangerous proposition even when done legally.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - spogbiper 1y ago
    it really depends on what part of the country and the type of road and even the time of day if I were to go even the posted speed limit during my morning commute, I would be causing a hazard. it's 5-10 over just to be safely part of the flow same road in the evening and doing the limit or even a bit under is safe imho, the dangerous drivers are those who for whatever reason do not base their speed on the flow of traffic around them
    - Toutouxc 1y ago
      Wow, that sounds like a toxic environment. I'm also in Europe and here it's completely normal to drive the speed limit. The motorway speed limit in my country is 130 km/h (81 mph). I drive an EV, so I usually stay around 110 km/h (68 mph) for efficiency, which is still faster than all trucks (limited at 90 km/h (56 mph)) and quite a few passenger cars and vans. Most cars drive a bit faster than me (at or around the speed limit) and very few drive faster than the limit (mostly the usual suspects, german luxury cars or sports cars). I honestly can't imagine being forced to break the law every day just to get to work safely.
      - 1y ago
- javcasas 1y ago
  Everyone that drives slower than me is a slowpoke, everyone that drives faster than me is a maniac. Nah dude, your intolerance is the menace here.
- renewiltord 1y ago
  Not in the right lane. On expressways that lane (at least here in California) is most likely to have semi-trailer trucks going their max speed of 55 mph. A 55 mph driver will be right at home in that lane.
- AStonesThrow 1y ago
  In my city I sometimes hire a scooter-share. These electric scooters can go up to 17mph. It is perfectly legal for me to drive in a traffic lane. It may be OK to drive on the sidewalk, with significant restrictions. But it is usually not. I typically opt to drive in traffic: the limit is going to be around 35mph. You can perhaps predict the sort of reactions I endure from motorists when I’m hogging their precious lanes at ½ their speed. Would you believe spitting in my face? Nevertheless, I persist carefully, because I’m right, and I drive with scrupulous safety, and I hope and pray that others follow my lead, because electric scooters at 17mph on the sidewalk is fucking dangerous to pedestrian me at all other times.
sokoloff 1y ago
Assuming no weather, your driving below the speed limit on an expressway is almost surely working against your stated goal of improving road safety.
- bluGill 1y ago
  The autobahn proves consistently that speed variation is not itself a problem.
  - randerson 1y ago
    If anything, the Autobahn proves that the system works when everyone respects the rules and each other, all cars undergo regular roadworthy inspections, driver training is rigorous, and the road is designed for speed variation. In the US, none of that is the case.
    - zahlman 1y ago
      What does "designing a road for speed variation" look like?
      - analog31 1y ago
        Much less overall traffic, in my view.
      - sokoloff 1y ago
        Having rigorous enforcement of minimum radius in curves*, preserving more available cornering/braking traction and wide lanes, providing for better sightlines ahead (for faster traffic) and behind (for slower traffic contemplating pulling out to pass even slower traffic). * - I did an internship for Mercedes in the early 90s and we had testing access to a section of ex-A8 near Stuttgart that was retired because it didn't meet the modern autobahn requirements and so had been replaced with a re-routed A8. To my American college-student mind that seemed incredibly wasteful, but it sure was convenient for our testing. I can't find it now on Google maps, but it's been 30 years so may have been demolished by now. Edit: There's a hiking area called "Alte A8" which is probably it/related: https://maps.app.goo.gl/1SyBPKNie1x13AYy8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/1SyBPKNie1x13AYy8
YZF 1y ago
I think this is great as long as the speed limits are set correctly. What I worry would happen is that the speed limits would intentionally be set low to maximize revenue from the speed enforcement system. On my way to work there is a long stretch of road with great visibility, two lanes in each direction, physical separation between directions, very wide shoulders with virtually zero pedestrian traffic, but the speed limit is 50km/hr. Nobody drives 50 on that road. The traffic generally flows at 70. Similarly there are many semi-industrial areas with wide roads, no traffic, few pedestrians with a 50km/hr limit. We also have highways with 80km/hr limits where traffic generally flows (safely) at 90-100. Guess what, all those places are where police hangs out looking for speeders. Contrast that with small streets in dense urban or suburban areas where despite the limit being 50 most people drive closer to 40. Or when it's foggy or raining heavily and you want to drive slower on the highway than the speed limit. That said there is a question of balancing the somewhat improved safety of lower speeds to the improved efficiency of driving a bit faster. I'm not sure how you balance that. There are other options like moving people to mass transit or closing some city streets to car traffic completely.
paddy_m 1y ago
What does require in person enforcement is making sure license plates aren't obscured, defaced, or removed. The left in this country needs to reconcile that enforcement of laws is a good thing. Matthew Yglessias talks about this a lot. This requires the most enforcement in front of NYC precincts. I truly don't know how such a corrupt organization could be reformed. https://x.com/hashtag/CriminalMischief https://x.com/hashtag/CriminalMischief https://x.com/GershKuntzman https://x.com/GershKuntzman

nradov 1y ago

People who drive below the posted speed limit (road boulders) are a menace. They increase the risk to everyone else as other drivers try to get around them.

benabbott 1y ago
Might I direct you to the text on the sign, Speed "Limit"? The ones causing danger are the drivers attempting to pass dangerously, not the person driving slowly. Do cyclists cause danger by using roadways? Or is it the people driving multiple-ton vehicles?
- potato3732842 1y ago
  If you can't understand the subtle, but still fairly obvious and unmistakeable difference between being a net increase in danger/problem potential without a) breaking the rules b) personally increasing your own financial liability for any bad outcomes you probably ought not to be driving. There's a reason tractors get triangles and oversize stuff gets highly visible signs.
- zdragnar 1y ago
  If you are driving slower than other traffic, under the speed limit, and there is not a weather condition or a road impediment, that is also illegal in most (or all?) states. > Do cyclists cause danger by using roadways? They are also expected to move with traffic if they are taking up a lane. This is among the reasons non-motorized vehicles are not allowed on freeways. Anyone moving slower than expected are intrinsically an impediment and a hazard, just the same as anyone speeding or otherwise driving recklessly.
  - californical 1y ago
    Just to be clear - your statements about the law are all completely untrue, except for some states having a few specific highways with a “minimum speed”. For example, a highway near me says “left lane minimum speed 45mph” - where the speed of the road is 65. Unless you can find some laws that specify that driving below the speed limit is illegal?
    - nradov 1y ago
      Many states have laws against obstructing traffic. Most of them don't mention a specific minimum speed so enforcement is largely at the discretion of law enforcement officers. Personally I would like to see strict enforcement of those laws with tickets given out to anyone who intentionally impedes the flow of traffic.
      - potato3732842 1y ago
        They should use the same fine schedule as speeding. It ought to be just as lucrative for a cop to nab someone who's unreasonably stopping at a merge as it is to nab someone who's going a few over.
      - californical 1y ago
        Obstructing traffic is very different than “driving more slowly than the person behind you wants”. Obstructing means blocking, not making them wait 30 seconds for a good chance to go around. If you are moving a large item that is fragile, are you allowed to go 35mph in a 45mph zone to reduce the risk of damaging the fragile item? Or is that illegal too? Or what if one of your passengers gets car sick easily? In fact, there are some winding mountain roads in California where the speed limit is 55, but if you go that fast, you’re suicidal because there are no guard rails and very sharp turns. Occasionally, someone mildly suicidal will come up behind you. Is it illegal to drive 15mph in that 55 zone? Safety is prioritized above speed, suggesting otherwise is unhinged and antisocial.
- rcoveson 1y ago
  Assigning blame doesn't do anything for safety, even if you're right. Where I live, by far the safest thing to do is to drive ~4 mph over the limit on all non-residential roads. If you drive below or even right at the limit, you will be tailgated or passed with far greater frequency. That behavior is out of your control, at least on the road. You can push for more consistent enforcement while you're not driving (I'm inclined to do so myself), but while you're behind the wheel, the only behavior you can change is your own.
  - tshaddox 1y ago
    > Assigning blame doesn't do anything for safety, even if you're right. It's reasonable to talk about which party should be the one to change their behavior, and that's essentially the same thing as assigning blame.
    - rcoveson 1y ago
      No disagreement here, but where the literal rubber hits the road, you still have to decide how to act when the ambient semi-aggressive driving population continues to behave in the way that they do. Will you blamelessly be road raged at 50-100% more often than a more moderate driver (who drives at the most popular speed, though it may be over the limit) just because if an accident does happen it will be the road rager's fault? It's a very frustrating social problem. Obviously we can't let ourselves be held collectively hostage by bad actors in all situations. But I would still predict that there are some situations where the bad actor population is so large and "mildly-bad" that indefinitely giving in to their implicit demands is the right game theoretic choice.
      - tshaddox 1y ago
        > But I would still predict that there are some situations where the bad actor population is so large and "mildly-bad" that indefinitely giving in to their implicit demands is the right game theoretic choice. Game theory is quite a big thing, that's for sure. And it's no surprise that actors will tend towards these situations where you're tempted to think "eh, letting them do this bad thing with impunity feels like the right game theoretic choice, because it's right at the limit of not being bad enough to illicit a response." And yet, there's a reason for things like territorial behavior in the animal kingdom, where an animal will defend minor territory disputes at great personal cost even when the cost of losing a small amount of territory seems much smaller.
- cameldrv 1y ago
  Above the limit, I agree that people speeding bear primary responsibility, although if you're not going the limit in the left lane, you are creating an obstacle for sure. If you're going significantly below the limit though, what's the reason? The whole point of a car is to get you from point A to point B quickly.
andyjohnson0 1y ago
> People who drive below the posted speed limit are a menace Its the speed limit. Its not the speed that everyone has to drive at in all circumstances and conditions.
like_any_other 1y ago
Is everyone in the US expected to drive at least the speed limit on motorways? Here in Europe, there are always vehicles going slower - buses, trucks, vans, or just older cars or drivers not in a hurry. If the limit is 130 km/h, you routinely encounter vehicles going 90-110. The menace are drivers not adjusting to the realities of the road.
- ty6853 1y ago
  A large part of the US depends on 2 lane highways on which overtaking slow vehicles can be a dangerous proposition even when done legally.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- spogbiper 1y ago
  it really depends on what part of the country and the type of road and even the time of day if I were to go even the posted speed limit during my morning commute, I would be causing a hazard. it's 5-10 over just to be safely part of the flow same road in the evening and doing the limit or even a bit under is safe imho, the dangerous drivers are those who for whatever reason do not base their speed on the flow of traffic around them
  - Toutouxc 1y ago
    Wow, that sounds like a toxic environment. I'm also in Europe and here it's completely normal to drive the speed limit. The motorway speed limit in my country is 130 km/h (81 mph). I drive an EV, so I usually stay around 110 km/h (68 mph) for efficiency, which is still faster than all trucks (limited at 90 km/h (56 mph)) and quite a few passenger cars and vans. Most cars drive a bit faster than me (at or around the speed limit) and very few drive faster than the limit (mostly the usual suspects, german luxury cars or sports cars). I honestly can't imagine being forced to break the law every day just to get to work safely.
    - 1y ago
javcasas 1y ago
Everyone that drives slower than me is a slowpoke, everyone that drives faster than me is a maniac. Nah dude, your intolerance is the menace here.
renewiltord 1y ago
Not in the right lane. On expressways that lane (at least here in California) is most likely to have semi-trailer trucks going their max speed of 55 mph. A 55 mph driver will be right at home in that lane.
AStonesThrow 1y ago
In my city I sometimes hire a scooter-share. These electric scooters can go up to 17mph. It is perfectly legal for me to drive in a traffic lane. It may be OK to drive on the sidewalk, with significant restrictions. But it is usually not. I typically opt to drive in traffic: the limit is going to be around 35mph. You can perhaps predict the sort of reactions I endure from motorists when I’m hogging their precious lanes at ½ their speed. Would you believe spitting in my face? Nevertheless, I persist carefully, because I’m right, and I drive with scrupulous safety, and I hope and pray that others follow my lead, because electric scooters at 17mph on the sidewalk is fucking dangerous to pedestrian me at all other times.

sokoloff 1y ago

Assuming no weather, your driving below the speed limit on an expressway is almost surely working against your stated goal of improving road safety.

bluGill 1y ago
The autobahn proves consistently that speed variation is not itself a problem.
- randerson 1y ago
  If anything, the Autobahn proves that the system works when everyone respects the rules and each other, all cars undergo regular roadworthy inspections, driver training is rigorous, and the road is designed for speed variation. In the US, none of that is the case.
  - zahlman 1y ago
    What does "designing a road for speed variation" look like?
    - analog31 1y ago
      Much less overall traffic, in my view.
    - sokoloff 1y ago
      Having rigorous enforcement of minimum radius in curves*, preserving more available cornering/braking traction and wide lanes, providing for better sightlines ahead (for faster traffic) and behind (for slower traffic contemplating pulling out to pass even slower traffic). * - I did an internship for Mercedes in the early 90s and we had testing access to a section of ex-A8 near Stuttgart that was retired because it didn't meet the modern autobahn requirements and so had been replaced with a re-routed A8. To my American college-student mind that seemed incredibly wasteful, but it sure was convenient for our testing. I can't find it now on Google maps, but it's been 30 years so may have been demolished by now. Edit: There's a hiking area called "Alte A8" which is probably it/related: https://maps.app.goo.gl/1SyBPKNie1x13AYy8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/1SyBPKNie1x13AYy8

YZF 1y ago

I think this is great as long as the speed limits are set correctly. What I worry would happen is that the speed limits would intentionally be set low to maximize revenue from the speed enforcement system. On my way to work there is a long stretch of road with great visibility, two lanes in each direction, physical separation between directions, very wide shoulders with virtually zero pedestrian traffic, but the speed limit is 50km/hr. Nobody drives 50 on that road. The traffic generally flows at 70. Similarly there are many semi-industrial areas with wide roads, no traffic, few pedestrians with a 50km/hr limit. We also have highways with 80km/hr limits where traffic generally flows (safely) at 90-100. Guess what, all those places are where police hangs out looking for speeders. Contrast that with small streets in dense urban or suburban areas where despite the limit being 50 most people drive closer to 40. Or when it's foggy or raining heavily and you want to drive slower on the highway than the speed limit. That said there is a question of balancing the somewhat improved safety of lower speeds to the improved efficiency of driving a bit faster. I'm not sure how you balance that. There are other options like moving people to mass transit or closing some city streets to car traffic completely.

paddy_m 1y ago

What does require in person enforcement is making sure license plates aren't obscured, defaced, or removed. The left in this country needs to reconcile that enforcement of laws is a good thing. Matthew Yglessias talks about this a lot. This requires the most enforcement in front of NYC precincts. I truly don't know how such a corrupt organization could be reformed. https://x.com/hashtag/CriminalMischief https://x.com/hashtag/CriminalMischief https://x.com/GershKuntzman https://x.com/GershKuntzman