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Germany says its warships were sabotaged
- rbanffy 2y agoHybrid warfare is nothing new and we’ve been seeing it clearly for the past decade, at the very least.
- glenstein 2y agoThe article suggests that this is an escalation relative to the last few years. I don't think the article is suggesting that no such thing as sabotage had ever happened previously. I also think the significance here is in the context of Russian aggression in Europe beyond Ukraine.
- rjah12 2y ago[flagged]
- rectang 2y agoWell, with the USA now distancing itself from NATO, and aligning itself with Russia more closely than at any historical moment after WWII — even sabre rattling about expansionist conquests of its own and abandoning preservation of the international order — Germany finds itself bereft of a powerful ally and with a greatly degraded deterrent against Russian aggression. It is the right moment for Russia to advance.
- zbobet2012 2y agoIt's not like sabotaging German ships will cause Germany to increase military spending or fix the Bundeswehr's comically bad procurement process so there is little risk for Russia in these actions.
- Vilian 2y agothey can piss of the population at least enough for them to support mor military funding, at is bad for russia, so why do that?
- paganel 2y ago[flagged]
- glenstein 2y agoNot meant as a reply to the commenter above but to anyone else on hn, how come there's such incredible, richly detailed comments on, say, the history of S.U.S.E. (personal stories of people who grew up with it, people who used to work directly on it etc), but with international politics it steeply goes downhill? I feel like the same minds being brought to bear on the latter subject could be similarly interesting.
- motorest 2y ago> I also think the significance here is in the context of Russian aggression in Europe beyond Ukraine. Yes, and it also frames the ramp up of Russian aggression triggered by the ongoing demolition of the US. It's the deep sea cable-cutting attacks in the Baltic, today's drone attack on Chernobyl's dome, etc. We're bound to see a ramp-up in these actions in the near future, and the only peaceful exit for this scenario is helping Ukraine win by supplying it with everything they need to win. Any other scenario will involve more wars and more war fronts.
- ltk12312 2y ago[flagged]
- motorest 2y ago> That is propaganda (...) Are you sure about that? You sound like you're either misinformed or disinformed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Estlink_2_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Estlink_2_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Lion1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Lion1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EE-S1#Cable_damage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EE-S1#Cable_damage
- fmajid 2y agoWell, they blew up an ammunition dump in the Czech Republic 10 years ago, they are sabotaging electric and fiber cables, including to a highly sensitive Norwegian air base: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_warehouse_explosions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_... https://www.thebarentsobserver.com/security/someone-cut-a-key-communications-cable-to-norwegian-air-force-base/165694 https://www.thebarentsobserver.com/security/someone-cut-a-ke...
- dylan604 2y agobut to what point? to see if they could? but if you could, why give up your "0-day"? now they know there are saboteurs beyond just suspecting or worrying about it. what did they achieve? causing the Germans to spend some money or repairs? if this was a shooting war, then okay, this is as good as a bomb as the ship is not able to join the fight. but there's not a shooting war, so what did this actually achieve? i just don't understand the point of revealing a weakness by exploiting it unnecessarily like this
- blakehawkins 2y agoYou and I do not know about what foreign intelligence knows about the imminent usage of German warships
- rich_sasha 2y agoGermany probably needs to rearm aggressively, given what Russia is doing, but doesn't have the society buy in to spend money on armed forced (or rather, doesn't have the buy in to spend less on other things). So publishing this kind of thing might mobilize the society and convince them the risks are real.
- motorest 2y ago> Germany probably needs to rearm aggressively, given what Russia is doing, but doesn't have the society buy in to spend money on armed forced (or rather, doesn't have the buy in to spend less on other things). In spite of Russia's propaganda and continuous subversion attack on Germany's political leadership, currently we're seeing polls showing around 70% supporting Germany's military aid to Ukraine. It might not be a uphill battle to have Germany's population invested in investing in their defense.
- ltk12312 2y agoOne biased ZDF poll from the German state television. Here is another (50% against): https://www.ipsos.com/de-de/jeder-zweite-deutsche-gegen-weitere-waffenlieferungen-die-ukraine https://www.ipsos.com/de-de/jeder-zweite-deutsche-gegen-weit... 50% of Ukrainians want negotiations: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-ne... The majority of comments in German newspapers is against continuing the war.
- jandrewrogers 2y agoHybrid warfare, along with gray zone, has been escalating sharply in recent years. It is a major topic of discussion in international national security circles. There is a general sense that the absence of material consequences for engaging in this activity has encouraged it.
- tw1231273 2y agoSecurity circles are not known for honesty, see e.g. the Iraq "WMD".
- oneshtein 2y agoIraq had WMD. :-/
- card_zero 2y agoI looked this up recently (because I remembered a news report from after the war which casually mentioned "and some stockpiled chemical weapons were found and destroyed", but nobody seemed to pick up on that). They had leftover chemical WMDs that were in the process of being destroyed, since before the war, but were actually still in stockpiles because destroying chemical weapons is hard and they didn't wanna.
- oneshtein 2y agoFormer Iraq general Georges Sada said in his book "Saddam's Secrets." that chemical WMD transferred to Syria few months prior to invasion. Quote: > Both Israeli and U.S. intelligence observed large truck convoys leaving Iraq and entering Syria in the weeks and months before Operation Iraqi Freedom, John Shaw, former deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, told a private conference of former weapons inspectors and intelligence experts held in Arlington, Va., in 2006. > According to Shaw, ex-Russian intelligence chief Yevgeni Primakov, a KGB general with long-standing ties to Saddam, went to Iraq in December 2002 and stayed until just before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003. > Anticipating the invasion, his job was to supervise the removal of such weapons and erase as much evidence of Russian involvement as possible. > The Russian-assisted "cleanup" operation was entrusted to a combination of GRU and Spetsnaz troops and Russian military and civilian personnel in Iraq "under the command of two experienced ex-Soviet generals, Colonel-General Vladislav Achalov and Colonel-General Igor Maltsev, both retired and posing as civilian commercial consultants."
- whythis100 2y ago[flagged]
- yakshaving_jgt 2y agohttps://archive.is/F5dbW https://archive.is/F5dbW
- jcgrillo 2y ago> German police were investigating an incident at a Hamburg shipyard where several dozen kilograms of metal shavings were dumped into a corvette-class vessel's engine system. Italics mine, and holy crap that's a lot of metal shavings.. like multiple 55gal trash cans' worth.
- D13Fd 2y ago> holy crap that’s a lot of metal shavings.. like multiple 55gal trash cans’ worth I don’t think so. A 55gal Tran can full of metal shavings is probably several hundred lbs. 2 dozen kilograms is only about 53lbs.
- hx8 2y agoIt really depends on how corse the shavings are, if you do any work to compress the metal shavings, and the density of the alloy. However I think you're right, because 53lb of steel is only about 0.1ft^3.
- jcgrillo 2y agoI assure you it isn't. I've lifted them many times. I'd say 75-100lbs is normal, depending on the distribution of metals (obviously steel is heavier than aluminum for example).
- lostlogin 2y agoThat sounds really unlikely. Is there some that is more dense?
- jcgrillo 2y agoIME they're really not all that dense. When chips come off a lathe or mill cutter they are curled and have small serrations in them where the sharp edge cracked as it was curling. So they don't pack well. Each chip takes up a large amount of 3D space and they interlock really easily--they don't slide past each other.
- 2y ago
- usaid1221746 2y ago[flagged]
- aitchnyu 2y agoTangential, Emden is the name of a warship that shelled Chennai (formerly Madras) in India, so Tamil and Malayalam languages today use the name for dominating and big.
- Reubachi 2y agoInteresting, thanks for sharing. Stupid/tangential question, would a primarily hindi speaker from the north know the origin of this particular idiom? or is it more of a southern thing?
- ttepasse 2y agoBoth the old and the current warship are named after a city in northwestern Germany. It's one of the smallest cities in Germany, though.
- labster 2y agoThis is an act of war, right? Or are we just going to let Russia get away with it again?
- shut_up_german 2y agoJust like Nord Stream. My country had no interest in pursuing investigations against our "allies". Personally, I would not like to go to war for a Business Insider article. But no one asks what the German population wants.
- smackeyacky 2y agoLike the 20th Century two world wars, the US will be late for WW3 and it'll take a much bigger act than sabotaging one German ship. But if history plays out like it usually does (which it is) it's coming.
- rectang 2y agoOn which side would the US join the fight? Its movement towards Russia and away from NATO is accelerating dramatically, and it’s not clear where the trend will stop. Culturally, the US is increasingly at odds with scolds of liberal Europe and in tune with domineering Muscovite Russia.
- UncleOxidant 2y agoIf the US sided with Russia against Europe a big chunk of the US population would oppose that. (But even staying neutral and not supporting a NATO nation should one be attacked by Russia would be a bad outcome.)
- hx8 2y agoSabotaging engines of a military ship doesn't fit with my expectations of military security. You cannot even sabotage most civilian office printers without getting past a security badge and passing through multiple security cameras.
- dralley 2y agoThis is Germany, they let themselves get a bit lax. Also it sounds like it was pre-commissioning, so it hadn't been delivered to the Navy yet.
- hx8 2y agoSo it's not the German military that had the security breach, just the German defense contractors. That's still disturbing, but much less so.
- red-iron-pine 2y agois there a difference? supply chain attacks are still attacks
- hx8 2y agoThere's a difference. Yes supply chin attacks are bad. It's worse when deployed equipment is destroyed, because it can generate holes in defense for more special ops. Sabotaging deployed equipment also reduces the ability for the military to respond to active threats. Supply chain attacks are a thorn at your side, sabotage on military bases is a direct security threat to the country.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lnsru 2y agoThere is no military security in Germany. Military hires low wage guys over “security” companies to guard their barracks and military objects. That’s shocking reality. There are no soldiers with dogs and armed G36 around. Swarms of hostile drones fly over military objects and make pictures of every detail inside. Sad reality. Sometimes I feel that the whole country is sabotaged.
- shut_up_german 2y ago"Süddeutsche Zeitung wrote that if the shavings hadn't been detected during an inspection, they would have caused significant damage to the ship." So there was no damage. How convenient indeed that there happened to be an inspection.
- mupuff1234 2y agoYou do realize that inspection of such a vessel is done on a daily basis or higher frequency, right? You don't just say yolo flip the switch and ignite the engines for a multi million dollar vessel, it's a multiple step process that contains lots of safety checks and precautions, which one of them would be visual inspection for debris.
- boomboomsubban 2y ago>You do realize that inspection of such a vessel is done on a daily basis or higher frequency, right? Do you think Russia realizes this? If it's obvious to you, it would be obvious to them.
- mupuff1234 2y agoOf course it's obvious to them, it doesn't make it any less serious. That would be like saying blowing up an airport runaway isn't serious because you can obviously tell the runaway is faulty - so no harm done!
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Vilian 2y agoErr, I would have agreed with you before this war lmao, and after learning russia military history they frequently don't inspect shit
- duxup 2y agoDo the Germans have any non verbal only steps that they can take regarding Russian?
- tw1231273 2y ago[flagged]
- 4gotunameagain 2y agoIt's funny to see how HN is immediately turning into reddit when anything goes political, with people downvoting and flagging replies they disagree with. It would for sure be a blow to Russia to repatriate all those people. But the implications of forcing people to go to war.. Germany would not do that under the current government, and they should not. Nobody should be forced to go to war.
- motorest 2y ago> (...) with people downvoting and flagging replies they disagree with. You're posting that comparison in a thread started by a freshly created troll account baiting users with conspiracy-oriented talking points. And your reaction is to wonder why the comments are down voted and flagged?
- FirmwareBurner 2y agoWhat makes you say it's a troll baiting with conspiracy? To me it seems like a valuable talking point from game theory perspective even if it's not what children would like to hear. How do you fight a war if every one of your citizens tries to seek refugee status in other countries?
- motorest 2y ago> What makes you say it's a troll baiting with conspiracy? Read the comment history. It's 3 comments long. > To me it seems like (...) To me it's obvious it's a troll account pushing conspiratorial talking points. People who see that in a post will downvote and flag a message.
- trhway 2y agoI wonder if Germany still keeps or even installs new Russian-made (hardware and software) navigation equipment - "Transas Marine" - on its Navy ships like they did 15 years ago (what a different times it were, as Russian opposition says - "vegetarian times" :)
- tw1231273 2y ago[flagged]
- ashoeafoot 2y ago[flagged]
- ivan12321 2y ago[flagged]
- oneshtein 2y agoThere are multiple ways to help Ukrainian to defend from Ivan's: donations (e.g. savelife.in.ua ), fighting with Russian fake news, direct help to heavily wounded and orphans, counter-sabotage and counter-intelligence to protect your own country from Russian influence, responsible voting, etc.
- colechristensen 2y agoIt seems like for the past few decades Americas adversaries have been very smart long-game focused leaders (Xi, Putin, bin Laden). Americas leaders… have not been. Focused on playing internal political games… poorly at best. Plain stupid (and or senile) at worst. This is not to say I support them at all, but they have been strong adversaries who are getting exactly what they wanted. Would anyone say that either of the last two presidents would be the best candidates to manage the local Walmart?
- fldskfjdslkfj 2y agoI wouldn't call Putin smart - Russia overall is a fairly failed state. They could've been in a much better position. Perhaps maybe smart in terms of satisfying his own ego.
- oneshtein 2y ago
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- mediumsmart 2y agoAnything to trigger article 5 and turn the tide
- ashoeafoot 2y ago"Is a hibryid atrack, nobody can know for sure, who did this, lets not stoop to hate crimes and point fingers on our favorite dealer." Chancellor Jonesing
- renewiltord 2y agoThe problem with these guys is that we domesticated them too much. We had to blow up their pipeline just to get them to know who the threat against them was. You have to take the horse to the water, you have to make him drink, but can he still run? Who knows.
- somat 2y agoSome context into the importance of reduction gears from the battleship New Jersey channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw-d6ymgA_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw-d6ymgA_c (Westinghouse Leasing Reduction Gears to Navy Ships: Fact or Fiction?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGLoBbTeTAs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGLoBbTeTAs (The Keys to the World's Fastest Battleship: Unlocking the Reduction Gears) The comments are full of former U.S. Navy sailors remembering how they had to have an armed guard and strip down before entering while the reductions gears were opened and being inspected.
- rixed 2y ago"Do not attribute to malice what can be explained by journalist incompetence" ?
- ashoeafoot 2y agoGood thing, that as Ukraine showed, against russia you dont need a navy. Baltic seababies for the win.
- tommiegannert 2y ago> Vice Adm. Jan Christian Kaack, the inspector of the German navy, said at a press conference on Tuesday that the damage involved "more than one unit." > The Emden is one of the five new K130 corvettes that Germany ordered for delivery in 2025 to fulfill its NATO requirements. Ugh. Could that be five damaged units? Finds metal shavings in new engine. Touts it as sabotage without explaining further. Spends the rest of the article on fear mongering. If this was an internal investigation, that would have been great. Doing a press conference about it? Sounds more like "before we investigate where it came from, should we take the opportunity to do some propaganda?" (With all the recent subsea cable issues, yeah, something is going on in these waters, but this is not a good press release.)
- motorest 2y ago> Finds metal shavings in new engine. Touts it as sabotage without explaining further. You sound very disingenuous. If you one day find a dump of metal shavings in a freshly assembled and validated engine, and the only possible and conceivable way those could be found in there is if someone goes way out of their way to purposely dump them in there, how would you have describe that?
- tommiegannert 2y agoYeah, you're right. Sorry. I forgot it was several kilograms of shavings. So not just a poorly assembled engine.
- varsketiz 2y agoWow, this comment section has quite some russian propaganda.