6 ms·

This seems to be the case for most European countries, particularly here in France. We’re experiencing stagnation, or perhaps even a decline. Launching a produc

This seems to be the case for most European countries, particularly here in France. We’re experiencing stagnation, or perhaps even a decline. Launching a product in Europe is significantly more challenging due to the market’s high fragmentation. I don’t have much hope for the future of tech companies in Europe.

tokioyoyo 2y ago
If it makes you feel better, I'm having a hard time to think of a single country with more than 10M people that doesn't have the same problem.
- alecco 2y ago
  The problem is policy is oriented to growing GDP and not GDP per capita. Large corporations benefit from GDP growth and lower wages, so they incentivize the political class to grow the population artificially (wink-wink).
  - nobodywillobsrv 2y ago
    The other problem is the welfare state or just the state. So much graft and just living off printed money. It pushes out success. What percent of the UK is effectively civil servants or people receiving benefits? What percent are net takers? A lot
    - anonymousDan 2y ago
      Why do you equate civil servants with people receiving benefits? What a load of nonsense.
    - truckerbill 2y ago
      it’s more about wealth. You need a functioning welfare state to allow people to take risks
    - youngtaff 2y ago
      Most of the benefits bill in the UK is paid to people who receive the the state pension Of the others it's split between those who don't earn enough from work i.e. their employers don't pay them enough to live on so those benefits are essentially subsidising companies And the other large chunk is people who aren't fit to work, this increased as a result of Covid but also the underfunding of health / social care by the previous government The civil service isn't that big but the largest influx of people was caused by Brexit and the need to duplicate many of the things that didn't need to be separate when part of the EU The people who've been living off printed money as those with assets, almost all the gains from the cheap money supply over the last 15 or so years has gone to the well off
    - sealeck 2y ago
      > The other problem is the welfare state or just the state. So much graft and just living off printed money. It pushes out success. I see these uninformed comments all the time, and to be they suggest that the person in question has an intense ideological bent, but an aversion to evidence. As another commenter pointed out, a large amount of UK benefits spending (~£100bn) is on the state pension (the single largest benefit). You are correct that there are a large number of economically inactive people in the UK (something like 20% of working-age people). We have had at least 50 years of government presupposing that the problem here is that these people are lazy, and a little stick will motivate them back to work. The mere fact that this has not worked (and we have tried it repeatedly) might suggest that the problem is a bit more complex than this. One issue is that the general health of the population is very poor. Unfortunately, improving this is a very hard problem. I think people underestimate just how hard. If you could solve this, you would create hundreds of billions of pounds in value (I am not underestimating). Presumably some starting points would be working out how to lower the costs of fruit and vegetables and increase the cost of ultra-processed fast food. Not sure what else helps here. I would give this a read: https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=61595 https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=61595 The other problem is that there are no jobs for the people in question, so even if they want to work (or are heavily incentivised to do so) they are not able to. The government can create some employment for these people, but a better vocational training system might help here. The graft and living off printed money I do see is mostly in housing – people in the UK love to own and rent out houses. This means that (compared to e.g. Germany/Switzerland/Austria) there are very weak protections for renters. Additionally, when house prices are really high it makes it very challenging to build industries on top of this.
      - Symbiote 2y ago
        > Presumably some starting points would be working out how to lower the costs of fruit and vegetables and increase the cost of ultra-processed fast food. Britain has implemented a sugar tax, but I despair when even a right-wing governments attempt to make walking and cycling easier falls victim to culture war nonsense.
- potatosurfer 2y ago
  Spain and other EU countries are growing but not really from technological development. https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/10/31/why-is-spains-economy-growing-faster-than-those-of-its-eurozone-peers https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/10/31/why-is-spains-e...
monero-xmr 2y ago
It’s exhausting trying to explain this to American leftists. They believe the UK / EU is rich, their healthcare is amazing and “free”, and no one has to work more than 35 hours a week. They visit London and Paris once in 10 years for vacation and think they understand the economic order.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- riffraff 2y ago
  Both things can be true: I am happy with the European welfare state and still think there are structural problems. UK and EU are rich, even if their economy is not doing great.
  - alecco 2y ago
    European corporations and political class are rich and benefit from high GDP stimulated by mass migration and foreign funds cornering the housing market. But European salaries are stagnating and job security is dropping like a stone, while the cost of living is steadily rising. And public healthcare is getting terrible with months of wait for an appointment. Spain is now used as example of a growing economy in EU but youth unemployment is high and rising and wages are peanuts compared to housing. A lot of native Spanish kids are just checking out. I guess the Spanish corporations and foreign investors are having a blast. And the boomers with their fat pensions and renting their real estate portfolio. Of note, the same is happening even in China. I feel really bad for Gen Z.
    - riffraff 2y ago
      Spain's youth unemployment halved in ten years from 57%+ to 26%. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_unemployment_in_Spain#:~:text=5%20References-,Current%20statistics,people%20in%20Spain%20were%20unemployed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_unemployment_in_Spain#.... Yes, cost of living got worse. This does not in any way make the EU poor.
- 2y ago
realusername 2y ago
I lived and worked in both countries and I feel like the UK is in a worse situation than France nowadays. It's hard to admit for French citizens but the EU significantly props up the French economy and reduces the structural issues of the country.
- sebmellen 2y ago
  EU meaning… Germany?
  - realusername 2y ago
    EU meaning the rest of the EU, Germany included but everybody else is contributing to the common market
  - ta1243 2y ago
    Germany provides about the same contribution to EU GDP as California and Texas do to the US. The top 8/51 states(+dc) generate 50% of US GDP, the top 3/27 EU generate EU. The bottom half of EU states generate just 9% of EU GDP, but then the bottom half of US states generate 14%
- iLoveOncall 2y ago
  I have also lived in both and I agree with you. The UK is a lot worse. At least France has some things going for it, healthcare is still good, unemployment benefits are good, etc. The UK has literally nothing to show for.
- alecco 2y ago
  Arguing about which sinking ship is going down faster.
  - izacus 2y ago
    When in reality neither are actually sinking.
DaedPsyker 2y ago
A few here have commented on different aspects, and they have their part to play but I agree with you, market fragmentation is the scale killer. From an outside perspective it might appear like Europe is a true single market like the US but it isn't. Scaling to a European level isn't impossible but it is difficult. Some of that will just be difficult to do anything about, language, different cultures, etc. On the political side I'm sure there is plenty more the EU can do but I don't see the will.
- James_K 2y ago
  Market fragmentation is a measurable phenomenon, as far as a language goes. The language barrier is just the cost of a translator. Is that cost prohibitively high in Europe? I hear a lot of explanations of why Europe has fewer tech companies than America, but they are almost never backed by statistics. The most obvious answer continues to be the Bretton Woods system, by which large amounts of money are funnelled into America, seemingly without reason. China inverts this flow by debasing its currency, and Europe does not.
  - sealeck 2y ago
    > The language barrier is just the cost of a translator. Is it? > Market fragmentation is a measurable phenomenon, as far as a language goes. Market fragmentation isn't about language fragmentation – the EU has no single market for services currently, which means if you want to launch a product EU-wide you are effectively launching a product in 27 different countries. There is some harmonization, but not much. If you launch a product in the US you have a large fully harmonized single market.
    - izacus 2y ago
      The most bizarre thing is that the loudest critics of EUs market fragmentation are usually the most aggressive blockers of integration that would mitigate these issues.
    - James_K 2y ago
      What exactly is the current single market for services lacking? https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/single-market/services_en https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/single-market/ser... They seem to have a lot of bases covered.
eunos 2y ago
Well specifically for engineering-related products (both software and hardware). How can you thrive and be competitive when your competitors in the far-east work for >60 hours per week with a solid ecosystem and generous support from the government? I am specifically worried about the future of European engineering, unlike US you have much smaller capitals and moats. Many of the products are sustained mainly by legacy built by your predecessors. If nothing changes then by next-generation most if not all would be devoured by chaebols, Asian Sovereign Wealth Funds, or American PEs. You'll have to work for >60 hours but they not you will enjoy the surplus. Take your poison. Quantity has a quality of its own.

tokioyoyo 2y ago

If it makes you feel better, I'm having a hard time to think of a single country with more than 10M people that doesn't have the same problem.

alecco 2y ago
The problem is policy is oriented to growing GDP and not GDP per capita. Large corporations benefit from GDP growth and lower wages, so they incentivize the political class to grow the population artificially (wink-wink).
- nobodywillobsrv 2y ago
  The other problem is the welfare state or just the state. So much graft and just living off printed money. It pushes out success. What percent of the UK is effectively civil servants or people receiving benefits? What percent are net takers? A lot
  - anonymousDan 2y ago
    Why do you equate civil servants with people receiving benefits? What a load of nonsense.
  - truckerbill 2y ago
    it’s more about wealth. You need a functioning welfare state to allow people to take risks
  - youngtaff 2y ago
    Most of the benefits bill in the UK is paid to people who receive the the state pension Of the others it's split between those who don't earn enough from work i.e. their employers don't pay them enough to live on so those benefits are essentially subsidising companies And the other large chunk is people who aren't fit to work, this increased as a result of Covid but also the underfunding of health / social care by the previous government The civil service isn't that big but the largest influx of people was caused by Brexit and the need to duplicate many of the things that didn't need to be separate when part of the EU The people who've been living off printed money as those with assets, almost all the gains from the cheap money supply over the last 15 or so years has gone to the well off
  - sealeck 2y ago
    > The other problem is the welfare state or just the state. So much graft and just living off printed money. It pushes out success. I see these uninformed comments all the time, and to be they suggest that the person in question has an intense ideological bent, but an aversion to evidence. As another commenter pointed out, a large amount of UK benefits spending (~£100bn) is on the state pension (the single largest benefit). You are correct that there are a large number of economically inactive people in the UK (something like 20% of working-age people). We have had at least 50 years of government presupposing that the problem here is that these people are lazy, and a little stick will motivate them back to work. The mere fact that this has not worked (and we have tried it repeatedly) might suggest that the problem is a bit more complex than this. One issue is that the general health of the population is very poor. Unfortunately, improving this is a very hard problem. I think people underestimate just how hard. If you could solve this, you would create hundreds of billions of pounds in value (I am not underestimating). Presumably some starting points would be working out how to lower the costs of fruit and vegetables and increase the cost of ultra-processed fast food. Not sure what else helps here. I would give this a read: https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=61595 https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=61595 The other problem is that there are no jobs for the people in question, so even if they want to work (or are heavily incentivised to do so) they are not able to. The government can create some employment for these people, but a better vocational training system might help here. The graft and living off printed money I do see is mostly in housing – people in the UK love to own and rent out houses. This means that (compared to e.g. Germany/Switzerland/Austria) there are very weak protections for renters. Additionally, when house prices are really high it makes it very challenging to build industries on top of this.
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      > Presumably some starting points would be working out how to lower the costs of fruit and vegetables and increase the cost of ultra-processed fast food. Britain has implemented a sugar tax, but I despair when even a right-wing governments attempt to make walking and cycling easier falls victim to culture war nonsense.
potatosurfer 2y ago
Spain and other EU countries are growing but not really from technological development. https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/10/31/why-is-spains-economy-growing-faster-than-those-of-its-eurozone-peers https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/10/31/why-is-spains-e...

monero-xmr 2y ago

It’s exhausting trying to explain this to American leftists. They believe the UK / EU is rich, their healthcare is amazing and “free”, and no one has to work more than 35 hours a week. They visit London and Paris once in 10 years for vacation and think they understand the economic order.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
riffraff 2y ago
Both things can be true: I am happy with the European welfare state and still think there are structural problems. UK and EU are rich, even if their economy is not doing great.
- alecco 2y ago
  European corporations and political class are rich and benefit from high GDP stimulated by mass migration and foreign funds cornering the housing market. But European salaries are stagnating and job security is dropping like a stone, while the cost of living is steadily rising. And public healthcare is getting terrible with months of wait for an appointment. Spain is now used as example of a growing economy in EU but youth unemployment is high and rising and wages are peanuts compared to housing. A lot of native Spanish kids are just checking out. I guess the Spanish corporations and foreign investors are having a blast. And the boomers with their fat pensions and renting their real estate portfolio. Of note, the same is happening even in China. I feel really bad for Gen Z.
  - riffraff 2y ago
    Spain's youth unemployment halved in ten years from 57%+ to 26%. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_unemployment_in_Spain#:~:text=5%20References-,Current%20statistics,people%20in%20Spain%20were%20unemployed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_unemployment_in_Spain#.... Yes, cost of living got worse. This does not in any way make the EU poor.
2y ago

realusername 2y ago

I lived and worked in both countries and I feel like the UK is in a worse situation than France nowadays. It's hard to admit for French citizens but the EU significantly props up the French economy and reduces the structural issues of the country.

sebmellen 2y ago
EU meaning… Germany?
- realusername 2y ago
  EU meaning the rest of the EU, Germany included but everybody else is contributing to the common market
- ta1243 2y ago
  Germany provides about the same contribution to EU GDP as California and Texas do to the US. The top 8/51 states(+dc) generate 50% of US GDP, the top 3/27 EU generate EU. The bottom half of EU states generate just 9% of EU GDP, but then the bottom half of US states generate 14%
iLoveOncall 2y ago
I have also lived in both and I agree with you. The UK is a lot worse. At least France has some things going for it, healthcare is still good, unemployment benefits are good, etc. The UK has literally nothing to show for.
alecco 2y ago
Arguing about which sinking ship is going down faster.
- izacus 2y ago
  When in reality neither are actually sinking.

DaedPsyker 2y ago

A few here have commented on different aspects, and they have their part to play but I agree with you, market fragmentation is the scale killer. From an outside perspective it might appear like Europe is a true single market like the US but it isn't. Scaling to a European level isn't impossible but it is difficult. Some of that will just be difficult to do anything about, language, different cultures, etc. On the political side I'm sure there is plenty more the EU can do but I don't see the will.

James_K 2y ago
Market fragmentation is a measurable phenomenon, as far as a language goes. The language barrier is just the cost of a translator. Is that cost prohibitively high in Europe? I hear a lot of explanations of why Europe has fewer tech companies than America, but they are almost never backed by statistics. The most obvious answer continues to be the Bretton Woods system, by which large amounts of money are funnelled into America, seemingly without reason. China inverts this flow by debasing its currency, and Europe does not.
- sealeck 2y ago
  > The language barrier is just the cost of a translator. Is it? > Market fragmentation is a measurable phenomenon, as far as a language goes. Market fragmentation isn't about language fragmentation – the EU has no single market for services currently, which means if you want to launch a product EU-wide you are effectively launching a product in 27 different countries. There is some harmonization, but not much. If you launch a product in the US you have a large fully harmonized single market.
  - izacus 2y ago
    The most bizarre thing is that the loudest critics of EUs market fragmentation are usually the most aggressive blockers of integration that would mitigate these issues.
  - James_K 2y ago
    What exactly is the current single market for services lacking? https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/single-market/services_en https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/single-market/ser... They seem to have a lot of bases covered.

eunos 2y ago

Well specifically for engineering-related products (both software and hardware). How can you thrive and be competitive when your competitors in the far-east work for >60 hours per week with a solid ecosystem and generous support from the government? I am specifically worried about the future of European engineering, unlike US you have much smaller capitals and moats. Many of the products are sustained mainly by legacy built by your predecessors. If nothing changes then by next-generation most if not all would be devoured by chaebols, Asian Sovereign Wealth Funds, or American PEs. You'll have to work for >60 hours but they not you will enjoy the surplus. Take your poison. Quantity has a quality of its own.