6 ms·

Have used it for several months as my daily OS and dropped it because of bad graphics performance (only software rendering supported, many frame drops when watc

Have used it for several months as my daily OS and dropped it because of bad graphics performance (only software rendering supported, many frame drops when watching HD videos on YT) and bad battery management. Due to software rendering the overall systems perfmance also dropped. So I cannot recommend it for people with high requirements on graphics and battery duration. Besides that it was an interesting and good experience. I think it would be good to make it possible to deactivate certain security features such as strict graphics isolation so that users can adjust their settings to their risk acceptance level. It would also be interesting to be able to optionally replace Xen with lighter isolation mechanisms, even if the user would compromise on security here too.

NegativeK 2y ago
Given the tendency for people to lower their unknowingly compromise their security for the sake of convenience, I can understand why a project wouldn't do that. Knowingly is different and is what you're requesting -- it's when someone is following some Stack Overflow post or some such and doesn't have the training (similarly with the SO commenter, potentially) to know the implications. It kind of feels like a tradeoff between protecting users who are critically in need of something like Qubes or expanding its reach to people who are less at risk and won't use it if it's too inconvenient.
Dalewyn 2y ago
>bad graphics performance (only software rendering supported, many frame drops when watching HD videos on YT) It might help if you used a computer with CPU horsepower that actually exists. And in case this sounded facetious, any reasonable CPU from the past 15 years can handle software decoding of high resolution video just fine. This all said however, if you do actually need full use of all hardware resources then being constrained to software is certainly a factor worth considering.
- crest 2y ago
  You have to do more than just decode the the video stream to display it as smoothly playing video without dropping frames or audio samples or loosing sync. It requires always scheduling the context switches correctly between different virtual machines when using Qubes OS, performing multiple copies across protection domains. Brute force helps a lot, but do you want a ≥5GHz multi-core CPU burning 150W just to watch a single video stream with maximum paranoia settings?
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    >do you want a ≥5GHz multi-core CPU burning 150W just to watch a single video stream with maximum paranoia settings? I mean, yes? We're not talking about bloat here, you're deliberately imposing significant overhead load for a specific purpose. You can't really subsequently complain about performance unless you bring sufficiently powerful hardware to compensate for that overhead.
    - psd1 2y ago
      Right, but in a discussion about Qubes, it's germane to explain why you stopped using it
- kllrnohj 2y ago
  > any reasonable CPU from the past 15 years can handle software decoding of high resolution video just fine. 4k VP9 from youtube takes my 5950x around 20-25% CPU usage to handle with hardware acceleration disabled. The fastest consumer CPU available 15 years ago could not handle that. Hell, even CPUs from 10 years ago couldn't do that. Add power & thermal limitations of a laptop CPU? Not a chance. And that's just VP9! HEVC or AV1 would really put the hurt on.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    >4k To be pedantic, OP specified "HD" which is 720p. I gave him benefit of the doubt by saying "high resolution" in my reply, but I think 4K is unreasonable given the provided context. I'd wager 1080p ("Full HD") at most. There's also the question of frame rate, though we can probably safely assume either 29.976 or 59.952 fps since it's Youtube. As an aside, software decoding performance can vary pretty significantly depending on the codec used for both encoding and decoding. Bit of a history lesson, CoreAVC was infamous for being very easy on the CPU compared to other h.264 decoders like ffmpeg.
    - irundebian 2y ago
      Correction: I think I experienced noticeable stutters with Full HD videos not with HD videos.
      - pgaddict 2y ago
        I occasionally see stutters too, even with Full HD video. Or more precisely, mplayer complained about slowness and having to drop frames. It often helped to actually give the VM more cores (not just the default 2), but sometimes it was due to some weirdo codec/quality setting, and recoding the video just solved it. Sometimes switching to vlc (from mplayer) helped. Other times it was simply due to the sys-usb vm being overloaded.
      - fsflover 2y ago
        https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/hd-video-playback-on-qubes-os-older-computers/17849/7 https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/hd-video-playback-on-qubes-os-o...
- irundebian 2y ago
  I'm using an Intel i7-8850H with 6 cores so I think it's powerful enough. It's not that I couldn't watch HD videos but I was experiencing stutters and it left me with the feeling that the CPU is insufficiently utilised.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    I certainly rescind my insufficient CPU horsepower accusation in that case. I'm not entirely familiar with Qubes's innards, but the overhead it imposes must be substantial.
Etherdrake 2y ago
QubesOS is best enjoyed with a hefty CPU, lots of SSD space and a multi-screen set-up (in my opinion). Have you tried using Freetube instead of Youtube? In my experience it works a little better.
- jwrallie 2y ago
  The most annoying issue I had was that even using mpv would lead to audio samples being dropped. I think I fixed it eventually by increasing buffer sizes, but I would expect at least audio should work out of the box.
  - orbital-decay 2y ago
    >at least audio I imagine audio and other realtime loads having problems the most on a heavily virtualized system like this.
    - pgaddict 2y ago
      Not sure what "mpv" means in this context, but this reminds me the one actual pet peeve I have with Qubes - video/audio calls just don't work for me. It either doesn't work or the audio quality is really poor. I've tried all kinds of stuff, without much success. I'm using phone/tablet as a fallback, but it's not very convenient.
      - dublinben 2y ago
        mpv is a free (as in freedom) media player for the command line. It supports a wide variety of media file formats, audio and video codecs, and subtitle types.[0] https://mpv.io/ https://mpv.io/
        pgaddict 2y ago
        Thanks for the clarification.
  - 2y ago
jwrallie 2y ago
I could tolerate no graphic acceleration and battery issues as part of the virtualization overhead, but I had issues with sleep (it would sleep and wake up perfectly only with when plugged in) and other related problems such as Windows VMs crashing when waking up from sleep. I was using it well at home but could not stand it when I travelled around with my laptop. I think Xen is mostly at fault for the issues, but I’m sure using something like KVM would be insecure, or they would have migrated already.
- dmm 2y ago
  Does sleep and wake work for you with a standard Linux distro? If so a newer kernel might help,like the kernel-latest-qubes-vm package, might help: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/managing-vm-kernels/#installing-different-kernel-using-qubes-kernel-package https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/managing-vm-kernels/#installing...
  - jwrallie 2y ago
    Yes, it works perfectly. It’s a Thinkpad X260, not exactly new hardware, and even Debian works just fine.
    - pgaddict 2y ago
      Weird. Multiple people submitted HCL for X260, and not a single one mentions issues with sleep. https://www.qubes-os.org/hcl/ https://www.qubes-os.org/hcl/ When I had similar issues in the past, I posted a question either to the mailing list or forum, and people were helpful.
- fsflover 2y ago
  > but I had issues with sleep If you choose Community-recommended hardware (https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/community-recommended-computers/5560 https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/community-recommended-computers...), sleep will work fine for you.
dmm 2y ago
> dropped it because of bad graphics performance (only software rendering supported, many frame drops when watching HD videos on YT) Around Firefox 92 or 93 the new GPU-based renderer ported from Servo was made default and performance under Qubes became much worse. Unfortunately, it seems applications increasingly assume the presence of video acceleration and don't prioritize software rendering.
- josephcsible 2y ago
  Isn't it reasonable for applications to assume that, now that virtually all hardware has it, even super-cheap computers like the Raspberry Pi?
  - Narishma 2y ago
    The hardware may be there, but not necessarily the drivers.
    - zamadatix 2y ago
      The drivers are fine for GPU accelerated rendering of the app surfaces, even on the Pi. Hell, the drivers are even there >98% of the time for accelerated decode of the video format itself to boot. Qube's unique choice in software only rendering for user applications is one born out of the isolation goals for security, not what the software/drivers/hardware could do.
      - fsflover 2y ago
        > even on the Pi Only proprietary ones, so not for everyone...
        zamadatix 2y ago
        Pi 1-3 https://docs.mesa3d.org/drivers/vc4.html https://docs.mesa3d.org/drivers/vc4.html Pi 4-5 https://docs.mesa3d.org/drivers/v3d.html https://docs.mesa3d.org/drivers/v3d.html
em3rgent0rdr 2y ago
> only software rendering supported Isn't this something GPU Virtualization is intended to solve?
samoit 2y ago
I think you do have GPU acceleration in the Dom0 but I do not remember if you can use/install programs on it, it was the "coordinator" dom.
bobertlo 2y ago
Yeah, I could not do it without other computers to use, but after a year of keeping a system running it, I find myself mostly using my other systems for specific purposes like a windows machine for gaming (no web browsing ever lol), my macbook air for printing, managing photos, doing stuff with my iOS devices, etc.
fsflover 2y ago
> dropped it because of bad graphics performance (only software rendering supported This is by design, to provide high security, which is the point of Qubes. It's planned to allow GPU for chosen, trusted VMs: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/8552 https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/8552 Alternatively, you could perform a GPU passthrough, https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/#can-i-run-applications-like-games-which-require-hardware-acceleration https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/#can-i-run-applications-like-ga...
- sureglymop 2y ago
  Your link concerning GPU pass through only links to a google groups discussion with last activity in 2020 and 2015. So.. I guess this is not possible nor recommended? I've been using vms with passed through gpu for a while and it's great but I would love to switch to qubes. I wish this was prioritized.
  - fsflover 2y ago
    It's possible and supported. Here are better links: https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/nvidia-gpu-passthrough-into-linux-hvms-for-cuda-applications/9515 https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/nvidia-gpu-passthrough-into-lin..., https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/create-a-gaming-hvm/19000 https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/create-a-gaming-hvm/19000
    - sureglymop 2y ago
      Thank you! That looks more promising.

NegativeK 2y ago

Given the tendency for people to lower their unknowingly compromise their security for the sake of convenience, I can understand why a project wouldn't do that. Knowingly is different and is what you're requesting -- it's when someone is following some Stack Overflow post or some such and doesn't have the training (similarly with the SO commenter, potentially) to know the implications. It kind of feels like a tradeoff between protecting users who are critically in need of something like Qubes or expanding its reach to people who are less at risk and won't use it if it's too inconvenient.

Dalewyn 2y ago

>bad graphics performance (only software rendering supported, many frame drops when watching HD videos on YT) It might help if you used a computer with CPU horsepower that actually exists. And in case this sounded facetious, any reasonable CPU from the past 15 years can handle software decoding of high resolution video just fine. This all said however, if you do actually need full use of all hardware resources then being constrained to software is certainly a factor worth considering.

crest 2y ago
You have to do more than just decode the the video stream to display it as smoothly playing video without dropping frames or audio samples or loosing sync. It requires always scheduling the context switches correctly between different virtual machines when using Qubes OS, performing multiple copies across protection domains. Brute force helps a lot, but do you want a ≥5GHz multi-core CPU burning 150W just to watch a single video stream with maximum paranoia settings?
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >do you want a ≥5GHz multi-core CPU burning 150W just to watch a single video stream with maximum paranoia settings? I mean, yes? We're not talking about bloat here, you're deliberately imposing significant overhead load for a specific purpose. You can't really subsequently complain about performance unless you bring sufficiently powerful hardware to compensate for that overhead.
  - psd1 2y ago
    Right, but in a discussion about Qubes, it's germane to explain why you stopped using it
kllrnohj 2y ago
> any reasonable CPU from the past 15 years can handle software decoding of high resolution video just fine. 4k VP9 from youtube takes my 5950x around 20-25% CPU usage to handle with hardware acceleration disabled. The fastest consumer CPU available 15 years ago could not handle that. Hell, even CPUs from 10 years ago couldn't do that. Add power & thermal limitations of a laptop CPU? Not a chance. And that's just VP9! HEVC or AV1 would really put the hurt on.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >4k To be pedantic, OP specified "HD" which is 720p. I gave him benefit of the doubt by saying "high resolution" in my reply, but I think 4K is unreasonable given the provided context. I'd wager 1080p ("Full HD") at most. There's also the question of frame rate, though we can probably safely assume either 29.976 or 59.952 fps since it's Youtube. As an aside, software decoding performance can vary pretty significantly depending on the codec used for both encoding and decoding. Bit of a history lesson, CoreAVC was infamous for being very easy on the CPU compared to other h.264 decoders like ffmpeg.
  - irundebian 2y ago
    Correction: I think I experienced noticeable stutters with Full HD videos not with HD videos.
    - pgaddict 2y ago
      I occasionally see stutters too, even with Full HD video. Or more precisely, mplayer complained about slowness and having to drop frames. It often helped to actually give the VM more cores (not just the default 2), but sometimes it was due to some weirdo codec/quality setting, and recoding the video just solved it. Sometimes switching to vlc (from mplayer) helped. Other times it was simply due to the sys-usb vm being overloaded.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/hd-video-playback-on-qubes-os-older-computers/17849/7 https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/hd-video-playback-on-qubes-os-o...
irundebian 2y ago
I'm using an Intel i7-8850H with 6 cores so I think it's powerful enough. It's not that I couldn't watch HD videos but I was experiencing stutters and it left me with the feeling that the CPU is insufficiently utilised.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  I certainly rescind my insufficient CPU horsepower accusation in that case. I'm not entirely familiar with Qubes's innards, but the overhead it imposes must be substantial.

Etherdrake 2y ago

QubesOS is best enjoyed with a hefty CPU, lots of SSD space and a multi-screen set-up (in my opinion). Have you tried using Freetube instead of Youtube? In my experience it works a little better.

jwrallie 2y ago
The most annoying issue I had was that even using mpv would lead to audio samples being dropped. I think I fixed it eventually by increasing buffer sizes, but I would expect at least audio should work out of the box.
- orbital-decay 2y ago
  >at least audio I imagine audio and other realtime loads having problems the most on a heavily virtualized system like this.
  - pgaddict 2y ago
    Not sure what "mpv" means in this context, but this reminds me the one actual pet peeve I have with Qubes - video/audio calls just don't work for me. It either doesn't work or the audio quality is really poor. I've tried all kinds of stuff, without much success. I'm using phone/tablet as a fallback, but it's not very convenient.
    - dublinben 2y ago
      mpv is a free (as in freedom) media player for the command line. It supports a wide variety of media file formats, audio and video codecs, and subtitle types.[0] https://mpv.io/ https://mpv.io/
      - pgaddict 2y ago
        Thanks for the clarification.
- 2y ago

jwrallie 2y ago

I could tolerate no graphic acceleration and battery issues as part of the virtualization overhead, but I had issues with sleep (it would sleep and wake up perfectly only with when plugged in) and other related problems such as Windows VMs crashing when waking up from sleep. I was using it well at home but could not stand it when I travelled around with my laptop. I think Xen is mostly at fault for the issues, but I’m sure using something like KVM would be insecure, or they would have migrated already.

dmm 2y ago
Does sleep and wake work for you with a standard Linux distro? If so a newer kernel might help,like the kernel-latest-qubes-vm package, might help: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/managing-vm-kernels/#installing-different-kernel-using-qubes-kernel-package https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/managing-vm-kernels/#installing...
- jwrallie 2y ago
  Yes, it works perfectly. It’s a Thinkpad X260, not exactly new hardware, and even Debian works just fine.
  - pgaddict 2y ago
    Weird. Multiple people submitted HCL for X260, and not a single one mentions issues with sleep. https://www.qubes-os.org/hcl/ https://www.qubes-os.org/hcl/ When I had similar issues in the past, I posted a question either to the mailing list or forum, and people were helpful.
fsflover 2y ago
> but I had issues with sleep If you choose Community-recommended hardware (https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/community-recommended-computers/5560 https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/community-recommended-computers...), sleep will work fine for you.

dmm 2y ago

> dropped it because of bad graphics performance (only software rendering supported, many frame drops when watching HD videos on YT) Around Firefox 92 or 93 the new GPU-based renderer ported from Servo was made default and performance under Qubes became much worse. Unfortunately, it seems applications increasingly assume the presence of video acceleration and don't prioritize software rendering.

josephcsible 2y ago
Isn't it reasonable for applications to assume that, now that virtually all hardware has it, even super-cheap computers like the Raspberry Pi?
- Narishma 2y ago
  The hardware may be there, but not necessarily the drivers.
  - zamadatix 2y ago
    The drivers are fine for GPU accelerated rendering of the app surfaces, even on the Pi. Hell, the drivers are even there >98% of the time for accelerated decode of the video format itself to boot. Qube's unique choice in software only rendering for user applications is one born out of the isolation goals for security, not what the software/drivers/hardware could do.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      > even on the Pi Only proprietary ones, so not for everyone...
      - zamadatix 2y ago
        Pi 1-3 https://docs.mesa3d.org/drivers/vc4.html https://docs.mesa3d.org/drivers/vc4.html Pi 4-5 https://docs.mesa3d.org/drivers/v3d.html https://docs.mesa3d.org/drivers/v3d.html

em3rgent0rdr 2y ago

> only software rendering supported Isn't this something GPU Virtualization is intended to solve?

samoit 2y ago

I think you do have GPU acceleration in the Dom0 but I do not remember if you can use/install programs on it, it was the "coordinator" dom.

bobertlo 2y ago

Yeah, I could not do it without other computers to use, but after a year of keeping a system running it, I find myself mostly using my other systems for specific purposes like a windows machine for gaming (no web browsing ever lol), my macbook air for printing, managing photos, doing stuff with my iOS devices, etc.

fsflover 2y ago

> dropped it because of bad graphics performance (only software rendering supported This is by design, to provide high security, which is the point of Qubes. It's planned to allow GPU for chosen, trusted VMs: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/8552 https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/8552 Alternatively, you could perform a GPU passthrough, https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/#can-i-run-applications-like-games-which-require-hardware-acceleration https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/#can-i-run-applications-like-ga...

sureglymop 2y ago
Your link concerning GPU pass through only links to a google groups discussion with last activity in 2020 and 2015. So.. I guess this is not possible nor recommended? I've been using vms with passed through gpu for a while and it's great but I would love to switch to qubes. I wish this was prioritized.
- fsflover 2y ago
  It's possible and supported. Here are better links: https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/nvidia-gpu-passthrough-into-linux-hvms-for-cuda-applications/9515 https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/nvidia-gpu-passthrough-into-lin..., https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/create-a-gaming-hvm/19000 https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/create-a-gaming-hvm/19000
  - sureglymop 2y ago
    Thank you! That looks more promising.