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Just be careful! In SOME jurisdictions, you can get in trouble for 'stealing' if you take back something that was stolen. Possession vs Ownership are 2 differen

Just be careful! In SOME jurisdictions, you can get in trouble for 'stealing' if you take back something that was stolen. Possession vs Ownership are 2 different things. For instance, the thief may have stolen something, sold it to someone who bought it in good-faith, and you take it back from that person, it's technically theft! File a police report, go through the right channels. If you know its yours, call the police department non-emergency and explain the situation

neilv 2y ago
This is the most useful advice: call the police non-emergency number, explain concisely, and ask them what to do. A bunch of the other suggestions, here on HN Streetwise ProTips, can get self and/or friends beaten, stabbed, and/or arrested.
- TylerE 2y ago
  No, THE most useful advice is not to take legal advice from cops.
  - neilv 2y ago
    How do you think the police will give bad advice, if you call them up and ask what to do?
    - Kinrany 2y ago
      Depends on how well they do their job, it's not hard to imagine them saying "file a report" and then ignoring it.
    - extra88 2y ago
      There are countless examples of police not knowing the law. If you talk to them in person, it should be to get an idea of what they'll do, which may or may not have something to do with what's legal. If you want legal advice, ask a lawyer with experience in the relevant area.
      - neilv 2y ago
        You don't want legal advice. You know where your stolen bike is, so you call the police. I think that's the usual process. Probably they will verify that the bike is yours, and retrieve it, or they will say that they don't have the resources. Are people imagining that the police will say that you can go take the bike, but then turn around and arrest you for theft? Of course, if the police tell you "finders keepers; it's in the Constitution", then you can seek legal advice.
        sneak 2y ago
        No. The police will offer you the option to come to the police station and fill out a report so you can get a police report number for your insurance claim. Nothing else will happen. Police don’t usually investigate petty crimes.
        michaelt 2y ago
        > Are people imagining that the police will say that you can go take the bike, but then turn around and arrest you for theft? People are imagining the police will tell you that you can't steal it back, when legally you can. After all, it's the police's job to keep the peace. And things are more peaceful if I'm not busting up thieves' hideouts all guns blazing like Rambo.
        wat10000 2y ago
        I’m also imagining the police telling you that you can do something that is actually illegal, and then you get prosecuted for it. “The cops said it was ok” may not be an adequate defense.
        TomatoCo 2y ago
        A cop telling you it's okay to do something, and then getting arrested for it, might be one of the only times you can correctly claim entrapment.
        2y ago
    - ldoughty 2y ago
      Ages ago when I tried calling the police... "We cannot answer legal questions, please seek a lawyer for advise." I don't do anything terribly interesting, so this was almost certainly not an issue actually worth paying $200 for a lawyer to answer.
    - chii 2y ago
      > How do you think the police will give bad advice the police will give you any advice, good or bad. They're not legally responsible for anything they said to you, as long as they're not telling you to commit a crime (in which case, if they did they will deny it). You can still call 'em up of course - but don't 100% just trust their words blindly.
      - toss1 2y ago
        At this point in the US, it seems we are far better off asking ChatGPT or Claude than the average police station.
- joshuahaglund 2y ago
  IDK where you live but where I am, unless it's an actively life threatening emergency, the Police will say they're busy. I watched a drunk driver try to drive away after smashing into a parked car, ripping a wheel off the parked car. The drunk driver kept trying to start his car to get away. People called the police but they said they're busy. Fortunately his car was totaled and wouldn't start either. Over an hour later someone picked him up. If they can't even bother to deal with an active drunk driver, they aren't gonna help retrieve a bike. Not saying confronting thieves is for everyone. But it's not necessarily as physical as you think.
  - happyopossum 2y ago
    Sounds like you live in a crappy big city like SF, Oakland, Santa Clara, etc. For the vast majority of people who live in reasonable cities, calling the police for something like that will get a timely response.
    - weakfish 2y ago
      Didn’t happen in the small North Carolina town that my parents live in, with a very similar situation as the parent. So truly, YMMV. Not all places can be generalized.
    - saagarjha 2y ago
      Santa Clara, population 110,000, is a big city to you?
    - bagels 2y ago
      Please tell us the magical place you live in that has friendly, helpful police with time to investigate every crime.
      - Alupis 2y ago
        Suburbs. We get 84 squad cars showing up for noise complaints... Many larger cities don't have the budget to provide adequate police coverage. So you get this sort of "best effort" response. This is made worse with recent years of "defund the police" policies creeping into some of our larger cities. It just reinforces the Pro 2A community's saying - when seconds matter, help is just minutes away.
- Thorrez 2y ago
  Someone I know's phone was stolen. He tracked it using the track my phone feature to a house, and contacted the police asking the police to help get it back. The police said no, it's too dangerous, not worth it.
- vorpalhex 2y ago
  It's probably a bad sign if you need permission from a desk clerk to get your property back. It's great that you think _someone will handle that for you_ but it is probably a fantasy. Unfortunately you will probably need to self resolve. If you think it is going to escalate to violence, bring overwhelming force.
nostromo 2y ago
I’d be curious what jurisdiction that is true. In my jurisdiction in the US it doesn’t matter if someone purchased the stolen goods or not, the goods still belong to the owner. This is sometimes called the "nemo dat" rule: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_dat_quod_non_habet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_dat_quod_non_habet The person buying the stolen goods would need to file a claim against the thief to recover their money, but the goods still belong to the original owner. And this is how it should be, since it’s added reason not to buy goods you suspect are stolen. And yes, you should always try and work with the police first and foremost.
- jorvi 2y ago
  That is probably mostly a common law thing, and as the article notes > however, in many cases, more than one innocent party is involved, making judgment difficult for courts and leading to numerous exceptions to the general rule that aim to give a degree of protection to bona fide purchasers and original owners > The person buying the stolen goods would need to file a claim against the thief to recover their money Generally as long as the purchase is made in good faith, you are wrong. It is the original owner that needs to file a claim against the thief. Obviously, what constitutes a sale in "good faith" is a rather imprecise science, although one steady element is the sales price: it needs to have been appropriate for the item. So for example a mint bicycle or antique coin should sell near sticker price.
  - nsomaru 2y ago
    The key element for a bona fide sale at common law is the buyer’s absence of knowledge of the defective title of the seller. Not sure how US courts have interpreted this requirement but that’s the onus and I believe it rests on the third party buyer (to show absence of knowledge through evidence). In that case the claim is against the thief only.
  - graemep 2y ago
    > in many cases, more than one innocent party is involved, making judgment difficult for courts and leading to numerous exceptions to the general rule that aim to give a degree of protection to bona fide purchasers and original owners The next sentence is: > The possession of the good of title will be with the original owner. So you seem to be wrong there. The innocent buyer needs to file a claim against the thief, the original owner retails their title. It is explained in more detail later on.
darreninthenet 2y ago
This wouldn't be true in the UK, you can just take it back and use reasonable (which would be very light in the circumstances) force to do so.
srockets 2y ago
The police won’t help you. It’s not their job.
- wahnfrieden 2y ago
  They will at best waste your time, and at worst they will cause you and your family harm for involving them. In Toronto even a stolen car is not enough to get their attention if you are not a high-profile business owner.
  - bagels 2y ago
    At best they will help you with stolen property, but that is rare.
    - wahnfrieden 2y ago
      Mythically rare. They're more likely to steal from you.
- happyopossum 2y ago
  Move, or elect better local politicians. Your city is broken.
  - sneak 2y ago
    Different local politicians won’t change the legal fact that the police have no obligation whatsoever to investigate or prevent crime. It’s simply not in the job description.
    - 9dev 2y ago
      Err… what is their job, then, if not investigating and preventing crime? That pet theory with the slave patrols of yours, by the way, isn’t it; that’s a hoax. The modern police in the USA and other countries stems from the British police, which did exactly what they are supposed to do, since ages.
sneak 2y ago
[flagged]
- jki275 2y ago
  Oh come on, that's not even hyperbole, it's straight out flame bait, and it's absolutely false.
  - itsanaccount 2y ago
    its not bait. for my demographics the number 1 way I die by stranger is cops. not random gangbanger, not bar fight, not mistaken identity. never ever call the police, avoid them whenever possible. the probability of death by stranger is low compared to most other causes but cops managed to beat out the competition and it just ain't worth it.
    - jki275 2y ago
      That claim is absolutely false.
    - sandblast 2y ago
      Do you have any sources to back up this claim? Genuinely curious.
      - bdowling 2y ago
        I'm curious too. I found a lot of skepticism of a similar claim. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/47754/are-one-third-of-americans-killed-by-strangers-killed-by-police https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/47754/are-one-t...
        itsanaccount 2y ago
        [flagged]
        2y ago
chii 2y ago
> it's technically theft! i hope that isn't true. A buyer of stolen goods needs to accept that a consequence of it is that they could lose possession of said good. This is why for expensive goods, you should ensure you're not buying stolen goods.
- mosselman 2y ago
  Here in the Netherlands if you purchase something and cant reasonably know that it was stolen, then you become the legal owner. It is logical that it works that way. Proving something is owned by someone else can be quite hard for certain items.
harha 2y ago
Some jurisdictions are great at protecting all the wrong people
Nakagawa835 2y ago
Helpful knowledge, thanks!
wouldbecouldbe 2y ago
the police often won't do anything
MagicMoonlight 2y ago
Please evidence this claim. I know it’s false in the UK and I’d imagine it is false in any country where the law is based on UK law. Failing to retrieve it at the time is going to mean losing it forever. If you find a crackhead with your phone and wait for someone else to retrieve it, that phone is long gone.

neilv 2y ago

This is the most useful advice: call the police non-emergency number, explain concisely, and ask them what to do. A bunch of the other suggestions, here on HN Streetwise ProTips, can get self and/or friends beaten, stabbed, and/or arrested.

TylerE 2y ago
No, THE most useful advice is not to take legal advice from cops.
- neilv 2y ago
  How do you think the police will give bad advice, if you call them up and ask what to do?
  - Kinrany 2y ago
    Depends on how well they do their job, it's not hard to imagine them saying "file a report" and then ignoring it.
  - extra88 2y ago
    There are countless examples of police not knowing the law. If you talk to them in person, it should be to get an idea of what they'll do, which may or may not have something to do with what's legal. If you want legal advice, ask a lawyer with experience in the relevant area.
    - neilv 2y ago
      You don't want legal advice. You know where your stolen bike is, so you call the police. I think that's the usual process. Probably they will verify that the bike is yours, and retrieve it, or they will say that they don't have the resources. Are people imagining that the police will say that you can go take the bike, but then turn around and arrest you for theft? Of course, if the police tell you "finders keepers; it's in the Constitution", then you can seek legal advice.
      - sneak 2y ago
        No. The police will offer you the option to come to the police station and fill out a report so you can get a police report number for your insurance claim. Nothing else will happen. Police don’t usually investigate petty crimes.
      - michaelt 2y ago
        > Are people imagining that the police will say that you can go take the bike, but then turn around and arrest you for theft? People are imagining the police will tell you that you can't steal it back, when legally you can. After all, it's the police's job to keep the peace. And things are more peaceful if I'm not busting up thieves' hideouts all guns blazing like Rambo.
        wat10000 2y ago
        I’m also imagining the police telling you that you can do something that is actually illegal, and then you get prosecuted for it. “The cops said it was ok” may not be an adequate defense.
        TomatoCo 2y ago
        A cop telling you it's okay to do something, and then getting arrested for it, might be one of the only times you can correctly claim entrapment.
        2y ago
  - ldoughty 2y ago
    Ages ago when I tried calling the police... "We cannot answer legal questions, please seek a lawyer for advise." I don't do anything terribly interesting, so this was almost certainly not an issue actually worth paying $200 for a lawyer to answer.
  - chii 2y ago
    > How do you think the police will give bad advice the police will give you any advice, good or bad. They're not legally responsible for anything they said to you, as long as they're not telling you to commit a crime (in which case, if they did they will deny it). You can still call 'em up of course - but don't 100% just trust their words blindly.
    - toss1 2y ago
      At this point in the US, it seems we are far better off asking ChatGPT or Claude than the average police station.
joshuahaglund 2y ago
IDK where you live but where I am, unless it's an actively life threatening emergency, the Police will say they're busy. I watched a drunk driver try to drive away after smashing into a parked car, ripping a wheel off the parked car. The drunk driver kept trying to start his car to get away. People called the police but they said they're busy. Fortunately his car was totaled and wouldn't start either. Over an hour later someone picked him up. If they can't even bother to deal with an active drunk driver, they aren't gonna help retrieve a bike. Not saying confronting thieves is for everyone. But it's not necessarily as physical as you think.
- happyopossum 2y ago
  Sounds like you live in a crappy big city like SF, Oakland, Santa Clara, etc. For the vast majority of people who live in reasonable cities, calling the police for something like that will get a timely response.
  - weakfish 2y ago
    Didn’t happen in the small North Carolina town that my parents live in, with a very similar situation as the parent. So truly, YMMV. Not all places can be generalized.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    Santa Clara, population 110,000, is a big city to you?
  - bagels 2y ago
    Please tell us the magical place you live in that has friendly, helpful police with time to investigate every crime.
    - Alupis 2y ago
      Suburbs. We get 84 squad cars showing up for noise complaints... Many larger cities don't have the budget to provide adequate police coverage. So you get this sort of "best effort" response. This is made worse with recent years of "defund the police" policies creeping into some of our larger cities. It just reinforces the Pro 2A community's saying - when seconds matter, help is just minutes away.
Thorrez 2y ago
Someone I know's phone was stolen. He tracked it using the track my phone feature to a house, and contacted the police asking the police to help get it back. The police said no, it's too dangerous, not worth it.
vorpalhex 2y ago
It's probably a bad sign if you need permission from a desk clerk to get your property back. It's great that you think _someone will handle that for you_ but it is probably a fantasy. Unfortunately you will probably need to self resolve. If you think it is going to escalate to violence, bring overwhelming force.

nostromo 2y ago

I’d be curious what jurisdiction that is true. In my jurisdiction in the US it doesn’t matter if someone purchased the stolen goods or not, the goods still belong to the owner. This is sometimes called the "nemo dat" rule: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_dat_quod_non_habet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_dat_quod_non_habet The person buying the stolen goods would need to file a claim against the thief to recover their money, but the goods still belong to the original owner. And this is how it should be, since it’s added reason not to buy goods you suspect are stolen. And yes, you should always try and work with the police first and foremost.

jorvi 2y ago
That is probably mostly a common law thing, and as the article notes > however, in many cases, more than one innocent party is involved, making judgment difficult for courts and leading to numerous exceptions to the general rule that aim to give a degree of protection to bona fide purchasers and original owners > The person buying the stolen goods would need to file a claim against the thief to recover their money Generally as long as the purchase is made in good faith, you are wrong. It is the original owner that needs to file a claim against the thief. Obviously, what constitutes a sale in "good faith" is a rather imprecise science, although one steady element is the sales price: it needs to have been appropriate for the item. So for example a mint bicycle or antique coin should sell near sticker price.
- nsomaru 2y ago
  The key element for a bona fide sale at common law is the buyer’s absence of knowledge of the defective title of the seller. Not sure how US courts have interpreted this requirement but that’s the onus and I believe it rests on the third party buyer (to show absence of knowledge through evidence). In that case the claim is against the thief only.
- graemep 2y ago
  > in many cases, more than one innocent party is involved, making judgment difficult for courts and leading to numerous exceptions to the general rule that aim to give a degree of protection to bona fide purchasers and original owners The next sentence is: > The possession of the good of title will be with the original owner. So you seem to be wrong there. The innocent buyer needs to file a claim against the thief, the original owner retails their title. It is explained in more detail later on.

darreninthenet 2y ago

This wouldn't be true in the UK, you can just take it back and use reasonable (which would be very light in the circumstances) force to do so.

srockets 2y ago

The police won’t help you. It’s not their job.

wahnfrieden 2y ago
They will at best waste your time, and at worst they will cause you and your family harm for involving them. In Toronto even a stolen car is not enough to get their attention if you are not a high-profile business owner.
- bagels 2y ago
  At best they will help you with stolen property, but that is rare.
  - wahnfrieden 2y ago
    Mythically rare. They're more likely to steal from you.
happyopossum 2y ago
Move, or elect better local politicians. Your city is broken.
- sneak 2y ago
  Different local politicians won’t change the legal fact that the police have no obligation whatsoever to investigate or prevent crime. It’s simply not in the job description.
  - 9dev 2y ago
    Err… what is their job, then, if not investigating and preventing crime? That pet theory with the slave patrols of yours, by the way, isn’t it; that’s a hoax. The modern police in the USA and other countries stems from the British police, which did exactly what they are supposed to do, since ages.

sneak 2y ago

[flagged]

jki275 2y ago
Oh come on, that's not even hyperbole, it's straight out flame bait, and it's absolutely false.
- itsanaccount 2y ago
  its not bait. for my demographics the number 1 way I die by stranger is cops. not random gangbanger, not bar fight, not mistaken identity. never ever call the police, avoid them whenever possible. the probability of death by stranger is low compared to most other causes but cops managed to beat out the competition and it just ain't worth it.
  - jki275 2y ago
    That claim is absolutely false.
  - sandblast 2y ago
    Do you have any sources to back up this claim? Genuinely curious.
    - bdowling 2y ago
      I'm curious too. I found a lot of skepticism of a similar claim. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/47754/are-one-third-of-americans-killed-by-strangers-killed-by-police https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/47754/are-one-t...
      - itsanaccount 2y ago
        [flagged]
        2y ago

chii 2y ago

> it's technically theft! i hope that isn't true. A buyer of stolen goods needs to accept that a consequence of it is that they could lose possession of said good. This is why for expensive goods, you should ensure you're not buying stolen goods.

mosselman 2y ago
Here in the Netherlands if you purchase something and cant reasonably know that it was stolen, then you become the legal owner. It is logical that it works that way. Proving something is owned by someone else can be quite hard for certain items.

harha 2y ago

Some jurisdictions are great at protecting all the wrong people

Nakagawa835 2y ago

Helpful knowledge, thanks!

wouldbecouldbe 2y ago

the police often won't do anything

MagicMoonlight 2y ago

Please evidence this claim. I know it’s false in the UK and I’d imagine it is false in any country where the law is based on UK law. Failing to retrieve it at the time is going to mean losing it forever. If you find a crackhead with your phone and wait for someone else to retrieve it, that phone is long gone.