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They ask on the admission form if you are a legacy, and legacy applicants answer yes because it helps them get in. So that’s very easy to track. Parents who get

They ask on the admission form if you are a legacy, and legacy applicants answer yes because it helps them get in. So that’s very easy to track. Parents who get their kids admitted by donating millions of dollars presumably get a more “white glove” service, and I don’t know if that’s tracked in the same way.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Parents who get their kids admitted by donating millions of dollars presumably get a more “white glove” service, and I don’t know if that’s tracked in the same way A lawyer for Students for Fair Admissions "quizzed [Harvard College’s long-serving Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid] on the 'Dean’s Interest List,' a special and confidential list of applicants Harvard compiles every admissions cycle. Though the University closely guards the details, applicants on that list are often related to or of interest to top donors — and court filings show list members benefit from a significantly inflated acceptance rate" [1]. [1] https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/18/day-three-harvard-admissions-trial/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/18/day-three-harv...
- slt2021 2y ago
  if a donor's kid get accepted in exchange for $10 mln donation - that funds 20 scholarships to underrepresented students - is it a good policy or not??? would you rather have no legacy admits and ZERO scholarships whatsoever ? or would you prefer to have some number of legacies + scholarships and new buildings funded from their donations ???
  - rvba 2y ago
    Zero legacies. If the university is suppised to produce good students ir shouldnt be that 1 student in 21 is a complete dud. Because that's how it works, they are duds, who cant be kicked out and they will get their diploma even if they cant read. In theory (not reality) those who finish top universities should be top people. To tell it other way: would you be happy if 1 car in 21 didn drive? Or 1 apple in 21 was poisonous? The top universities have long watered down their achivements anyway. Most is just pure nepotism.
    - slt2021 2y ago
      >>Zero legacies. state schools and community colleges do exactly that, how is that working for them? >> If the university is suppised to produce good students ir shouldnt be that 1 student in 21 is a complete dud. Because that's how it works, they are duds, who cant be kicked out and they will get their diploma even if they cant read. "complete dud" is doing a lot of work here, it is not necessarily true that legacies are dumb. Even if they are dumber than average, it doesn't mean they cannot go and achieve great things later in life. For example Malia Obama - does she deserve a harvard admission just because her father was president? or donald trump - he was admitted and graduated from wharton - does he meet criteria of "top people" ?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - rvba 2y ago
        > state schools and community colleges do exactly that, how is that working for them? It depends? For some good, for some not so good? For a multitude of reasons? One of them being "world is unfair"? Other being money? Public universities work in Europe. At least to some degree. Also, this is a philosophical question: should the top universities "manufacture" best students, or are they places where rich peoples" kids can meet each other? If you hire a programmer do you want: one who can code great, or one who played basketball with the president's kids?
    - OkayPhysicist 2y ago
      You're completely missing the point of private universities. The value proposition isn't in a better education: they offer a marginally, if it all, better education than equivalent tier public schools. What they offer is connections. Those rich kids whose parents bribed their way in? Extremely valuable connection to make. That's why private universities do the whole "eye-watering ticket price, but most students have some level of merit-based scholarship" setup. Mingling the talented and the well-connected is an extremely valuable proposition for everybody involved. If you're looking for a school made of exclusively meritocratic gifted scholars, that's what elite public schools like Cal are for. But if you want a school that creates the most opportunities for success, private schools are where that's at.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >if a donor's kid get accepted in exchange for $10 mln donation - that funds 20 scholarships to underrepresented students - is it a good policy or not??? But is that actually happening? Harvard only has around 7k undergraduates. For comparison the UC system has 230k. By all accounts ivy leagues is interested in cultivating an "elite" student body, not to grant as many students access to education as possible.
    - kenjackson 2y ago
      Is that true? Harvard could be more elite by offering no financial aid, but they swing the opposite direction.
throw4847285 2y ago
Can you believe that Jared Kushner's father only had to donate $2.5 million to get his son into Harvard? That's chump change for an institution that rich. They should have asked for more.
- Scoundreller 2y ago
  Harvard could use an international airport.
  - mauvehaus 2y ago
    The red line goes right to South Station, from which you can catch the silver line to the airport. The planes departing Logan fly right over Somerville at 60-90 second intervals when the wind is blowing the right direction. I dare say that an international airport is about the last thing Harvard needs.
    - Scoundreller 2y ago
      it's a reference to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbNdcdO3_Go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbNdcdO3_Go
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  My question is can donors buy not only admission but also grades? My guess is yes. At that point, why not just buy the degree and save everyone a lot of time? Edit: I guess, though, that the point of degrees from schools like these is not the degree, but the connections. But I'd guess those could be purchased as well.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > why not just buy the degree and save everyone a lot of time? If you do business in the Middle East, you begin to notice the kids of the elites all went to weird no-name Western schools. Turns out they want a Western degree, but don’t want to be away from the capital too long. So they find random universities who will give them a degree for, essentially, no-show remote learning classes. Win-win.
RajT88 2y ago
Checking a box is not how real power and influence works. Yes, donations are a big one. But also, those off-the-books social connections are another one (how big/common is this - we'll never know - that's the point). Making sure the college president knows who you are, and that you have 14 other family members who are alums. Oh look, my son is applying now too, just letting you know!

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Parents who get their kids admitted by donating millions of dollars presumably get a more “white glove” service, and I don’t know if that’s tracked in the same way A lawyer for Students for Fair Admissions "quizzed [Harvard College’s long-serving Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid] on the 'Dean’s Interest List,' a special and confidential list of applicants Harvard compiles every admissions cycle. Though the University closely guards the details, applicants on that list are often related to or of interest to top donors — and court filings show list members benefit from a significantly inflated acceptance rate" [1]. [1] https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/18/day-three-harvard-admissions-trial/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/18/day-three-harv...

slt2021 2y ago
if a donor's kid get accepted in exchange for $10 mln donation - that funds 20 scholarships to underrepresented students - is it a good policy or not??? would you rather have no legacy admits and ZERO scholarships whatsoever ? or would you prefer to have some number of legacies + scholarships and new buildings funded from their donations ???
- rvba 2y ago
  Zero legacies. If the university is suppised to produce good students ir shouldnt be that 1 student in 21 is a complete dud. Because that's how it works, they are duds, who cant be kicked out and they will get their diploma even if they cant read. In theory (not reality) those who finish top universities should be top people. To tell it other way: would you be happy if 1 car in 21 didn drive? Or 1 apple in 21 was poisonous? The top universities have long watered down their achivements anyway. Most is just pure nepotism.
  - slt2021 2y ago
    >>Zero legacies. state schools and community colleges do exactly that, how is that working for them? >> If the university is suppised to produce good students ir shouldnt be that 1 student in 21 is a complete dud. Because that's how it works, they are duds, who cant be kicked out and they will get their diploma even if they cant read. "complete dud" is doing a lot of work here, it is not necessarily true that legacies are dumb. Even if they are dumber than average, it doesn't mean they cannot go and achieve great things later in life. For example Malia Obama - does she deserve a harvard admission just because her father was president? or donald trump - he was admitted and graduated from wharton - does he meet criteria of "top people" ?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - rvba 2y ago
      > state schools and community colleges do exactly that, how is that working for them? It depends? For some good, for some not so good? For a multitude of reasons? One of them being "world is unfair"? Other being money? Public universities work in Europe. At least to some degree. Also, this is a philosophical question: should the top universities "manufacture" best students, or are they places where rich peoples" kids can meet each other? If you hire a programmer do you want: one who can code great, or one who played basketball with the president's kids?
  - OkayPhysicist 2y ago
    You're completely missing the point of private universities. The value proposition isn't in a better education: they offer a marginally, if it all, better education than equivalent tier public schools. What they offer is connections. Those rich kids whose parents bribed their way in? Extremely valuable connection to make. That's why private universities do the whole "eye-watering ticket price, but most students have some level of merit-based scholarship" setup. Mingling the talented and the well-connected is an extremely valuable proposition for everybody involved. If you're looking for a school made of exclusively meritocratic gifted scholars, that's what elite public schools like Cal are for. But if you want a school that creates the most opportunities for success, private schools are where that's at.
- gruez 2y ago
  >if a donor's kid get accepted in exchange for $10 mln donation - that funds 20 scholarships to underrepresented students - is it a good policy or not??? But is that actually happening? Harvard only has around 7k undergraduates. For comparison the UC system has 230k. By all accounts ivy leagues is interested in cultivating an "elite" student body, not to grant as many students access to education as possible.
  - kenjackson 2y ago
    Is that true? Harvard could be more elite by offering no financial aid, but they swing the opposite direction.

throw4847285 2y ago

Can you believe that Jared Kushner's father only had to donate $2.5 million to get his son into Harvard? That's chump change for an institution that rich. They should have asked for more.

Scoundreller 2y ago
Harvard could use an international airport.
- mauvehaus 2y ago
  The red line goes right to South Station, from which you can catch the silver line to the airport. The planes departing Logan fly right over Somerville at 60-90 second intervals when the wind is blowing the right direction. I dare say that an international airport is about the last thing Harvard needs.
  - Scoundreller 2y ago
    it's a reference to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbNdcdO3_Go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbNdcdO3_Go
SoftTalker 2y ago
My question is can donors buy not only admission but also grades? My guess is yes. At that point, why not just buy the degree and save everyone a lot of time? Edit: I guess, though, that the point of degrees from schools like these is not the degree, but the connections. But I'd guess those could be purchased as well.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > why not just buy the degree and save everyone a lot of time? If you do business in the Middle East, you begin to notice the kids of the elites all went to weird no-name Western schools. Turns out they want a Western degree, but don’t want to be away from the capital too long. So they find random universities who will give them a degree for, essentially, no-show remote learning classes. Win-win.

RajT88 2y ago

Checking a box is not how real power and influence works. Yes, donations are a big one. But also, those off-the-books social connections are another one (how big/common is this - we'll never know - that's the point). Making sure the college president knows who you are, and that you have 14 other family members who are alums. Oh look, my son is applying now too, just letting you know!