6 ms·

I understand your position in theory but feel the comparison to cannabis is a bit unfair. Most physicians will agree that cannabis is fairly harmless in adults.

I understand your position in theory but feel the comparison to cannabis is a bit unfair. Most physicians will agree that cannabis is fairly harmless in adults. Gambling, however has previously in the U.S. shown to be the leading cause of suicide attempts (20% in total) among all forms of addiction [1]. A body of evidence has also demonstrated it leads to divorce, bankruptcy, poor health and sometimes incarceration. Worth noting many of these studies centered around machine gambling and all forms of gambling are unique in terms of tendency for compulsion. Considering the landscape it is quite difficult for me to see a way of regulating out of this, not in the U.S. at least. [1] Zangeneh and Hason 2006, 191-93

nemetroid 2y ago
It’s just an example.
- MavisBacon 2y ago
  That's fair, and I really don't fundamentally disagree with what they said I just wanted to add some cultural context here. Will plead ignorance that my experience working on issues of "addiction" or compulsions outside of the U.S. is incredibly thin but, knowing how compulsion tends to play out stateside- these are my observations. I'm genuinely concerned considering how poorly we've done treating those with substance use disorder, which I think is arguably simpler than gambling addiction in some respects
  - nemetroid 2y ago
    I don't necessarily disagree, but the original comment didn't suggest that gambling and cannabis are equally harmful, or even that cannabis is harmful. The point was that policymaking seems to tend toward all-or-nothing (either fully prohibited, or anything goes), and the legalization of cannabis is a recent example of that. The goods or harms of cannabis are beside the point.
vasco 2y ago
> Most physicians will agree that cannabis is fairly harmless. If you read some papers on the subject it should be plenty apparent that it has adverse effects on the development of young adults, as well as long term use by anyone, particularly of recent high-potency strains. It's not as bad as other drugs (heroine), and it's worse than others (coffee), but it's not harmless. I'm far from being a prohibitionist, and live somewhere that has (I think) sensible policies (The Netherlands), but to simply put that it's "fairly harmless" as something most physicians agree with is not true. I'd say it's similar to alcohol in terms of its moderate use being possible in a working society - albeit with some negative outcomes for people that overdo it, or do it too early in life. Edit: there's lots of discussion below about if the studies that exist are trustworthy or not, but since anyone can google for studies, I'll leave a different recommendation to check out the r/Leaves subreddit, and read some first hand accounts of long term and heavy users. It's at least a different type of source and you can make up your own mind about what real users say about it, in case you never encountered it before.
- MavisBacon 2y ago
  edited to specify that I was addressing adult use. Agreed use in adolescence or even younger can be problematic. I also think that there isn't enough discussion around the impact of cannabis on cognition. Here in the U.S., though, as far as medical consensus there truly is not very much concern around cannabis use. A report found that there is limited evidence of the harms of cannabis, and ample evidence of medical use-cases- published by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine (NASEM) in 2017 Worth noting our current overdose crisis and general lack of health care in many parts of the country, now the under-prescription of controlled medications- which all helps shift a lot of these dynamics in a direction that might not be seen in other parts of the world.
  - svardilfari 2y ago
    I'd challenge you to read those results again. They admit to the evidence for health effects being elusive (due to limited or no robust studies), yet there is still enough evidence to summarize the following: " There is substantial evidence of a statistical association between cannabis use and: The development of schizophrenia or other psychoses, with the highest risk among the most frequent users (12-1) There is moderate evidence of a statistical association between cannabis use and: Better cognitive performance among individuals with psychotic disorders and a history of cannabis use (12-2a) Increased symptoms of mania and hypomania in individuals diagnosed with bipolar disorders (regular cannabis use) (12-4) A small increased risk for the development of depressive disorders (12-5) Increased incidence of suicidal ideation and suicide attempts with a higher incidence among heavier users (12-7a) Increased incidence of suicide completion (12-7b) Increased incidence of social anxiety disorder (regular cannabis use) (12-8b)" National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2017. The Health Effects of Cannabis and Cannabinoids: The Current State of Evidence and Recommendations for Research. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. https://doi.org/10.17226/24625 https://doi.org/10.17226/24625. I would warrant that these summaries should be a concern for anyone using cannabis and that blanket statements regarding the overall tone and summation of the report negating health effects of cannabis is somewhat misguided.
sandworm101 2y ago
>> Most physicians will agree that cannabis is fairly harmless in adults. It's a recreational drug. Unless a patient needs it to counter some other malady such as for pain relief, most doctors will say that less is better and none is best.
- cto_of_antifa 2y ago
  there's nothing inherently wrong with recreational drug use
  - FactKnower69 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - oneshtein 2y ago
      It's looks like you have wrong assumptions about liberal philosophy. In liberal philosophy, price of human life is set to infinity, thus price of life of any individual (even worthless ones) is equal to price of life of any group (even top of the top). However, unlike anarchy, any harm to human life is very costly (because value of human life is infinite!), for example: killing of someone, suicide, death because of incompetence or laziness, or self damage because of self medication, etc. are «sins» for libertarians.
      - Elinvynia 2y ago
        Libertarian != Liberal
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        oneshtein 2y ago
        Yep, my mistake. However, I disagree that HN is the libertarian site.
- 2y ago
SkyPuncher 2y ago
> most physicians will agree that cannabis is fairly harmless in adults. This isn’t a good argument. Cannabis is harmless in adults that it’s harmless in. However, there’s a percentage of the population that has strong, adverse reactions to cannabis. Some of these can be life altering, requiring treatment to correct or mitigate. The problem with cannabis is you can’t predict if any single person will be susceptible to negative outcomes until they have that negative outcome.
- MavisBacon 2y ago
  I didn’t refer to it as harmless. I referred to it as “fairly harmless”. An acknowledgment of what you are referring to. I don’t see this as terribly different than referring to cough syrup containing DXM as fairly harmless. If you are on MAOIs or have liver issues it can be quite dangerous- but for the vast majority of the population it is perfectly safe

nemetroid 2y ago

It’s just an example.

MavisBacon 2y ago
That's fair, and I really don't fundamentally disagree with what they said I just wanted to add some cultural context here. Will plead ignorance that my experience working on issues of "addiction" or compulsions outside of the U.S. is incredibly thin but, knowing how compulsion tends to play out stateside- these are my observations. I'm genuinely concerned considering how poorly we've done treating those with substance use disorder, which I think is arguably simpler than gambling addiction in some respects
- nemetroid 2y ago
  I don't necessarily disagree, but the original comment didn't suggest that gambling and cannabis are equally harmful, or even that cannabis is harmful. The point was that policymaking seems to tend toward all-or-nothing (either fully prohibited, or anything goes), and the legalization of cannabis is a recent example of that. The goods or harms of cannabis are beside the point.

vasco 2y ago

> Most physicians will agree that cannabis is fairly harmless. If you read some papers on the subject it should be plenty apparent that it has adverse effects on the development of young adults, as well as long term use by anyone, particularly of recent high-potency strains. It's not as bad as other drugs (heroine), and it's worse than others (coffee), but it's not harmless. I'm far from being a prohibitionist, and live somewhere that has (I think) sensible policies (The Netherlands), but to simply put that it's "fairly harmless" as something most physicians agree with is not true. I'd say it's similar to alcohol in terms of its moderate use being possible in a working society - albeit with some negative outcomes for people that overdo it, or do it too early in life. Edit: there's lots of discussion below about if the studies that exist are trustworthy or not, but since anyone can google for studies, I'll leave a different recommendation to check out the r/Leaves subreddit, and read some first hand accounts of long term and heavy users. It's at least a different type of source and you can make up your own mind about what real users say about it, in case you never encountered it before.

MavisBacon 2y ago
edited to specify that I was addressing adult use. Agreed use in adolescence or even younger can be problematic. I also think that there isn't enough discussion around the impact of cannabis on cognition. Here in the U.S., though, as far as medical consensus there truly is not very much concern around cannabis use. A report found that there is limited evidence of the harms of cannabis, and ample evidence of medical use-cases- published by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine (NASEM) in 2017 Worth noting our current overdose crisis and general lack of health care in many parts of the country, now the under-prescription of controlled medications- which all helps shift a lot of these dynamics in a direction that might not be seen in other parts of the world.
- svardilfari 2y ago
  I'd challenge you to read those results again. They admit to the evidence for health effects being elusive (due to limited or no robust studies), yet there is still enough evidence to summarize the following: " There is substantial evidence of a statistical association between cannabis use and: The development of schizophrenia or other psychoses, with the highest risk among the most frequent users (12-1) There is moderate evidence of a statistical association between cannabis use and: Better cognitive performance among individuals with psychotic disorders and a history of cannabis use (12-2a) Increased symptoms of mania and hypomania in individuals diagnosed with bipolar disorders (regular cannabis use) (12-4) A small increased risk for the development of depressive disorders (12-5) Increased incidence of suicidal ideation and suicide attempts with a higher incidence among heavier users (12-7a) Increased incidence of suicide completion (12-7b) Increased incidence of social anxiety disorder (regular cannabis use) (12-8b)" National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2017. The Health Effects of Cannabis and Cannabinoids: The Current State of Evidence and Recommendations for Research. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. https://doi.org/10.17226/24625 https://doi.org/10.17226/24625. I would warrant that these summaries should be a concern for anyone using cannabis and that blanket statements regarding the overall tone and summation of the report negating health effects of cannabis is somewhat misguided.

sandworm101 2y ago

>> Most physicians will agree that cannabis is fairly harmless in adults. It's a recreational drug. Unless a patient needs it to counter some other malady such as for pain relief, most doctors will say that less is better and none is best.

cto_of_antifa 2y ago
there's nothing inherently wrong with recreational drug use
- FactKnower69 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - oneshtein 2y ago
    It's looks like you have wrong assumptions about liberal philosophy. In liberal philosophy, price of human life is set to infinity, thus price of life of any individual (even worthless ones) is equal to price of life of any group (even top of the top). However, unlike anarchy, any harm to human life is very costly (because value of human life is infinite!), for example: killing of someone, suicide, death because of incompetence or laziness, or self damage because of self medication, etc. are «sins» for libertarians.
    - Elinvynia 2y ago
      Libertarian != Liberal
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - oneshtein 2y ago
        Yep, my mistake. However, I disagree that HN is the libertarian site.
2y ago

SkyPuncher 2y ago

> most physicians will agree that cannabis is fairly harmless in adults. This isn’t a good argument. Cannabis is harmless in adults that it’s harmless in. However, there’s a percentage of the population that has strong, adverse reactions to cannabis. Some of these can be life altering, requiring treatment to correct or mitigate. The problem with cannabis is you can’t predict if any single person will be susceptible to negative outcomes until they have that negative outcome.

MavisBacon 2y ago
I didn’t refer to it as harmless. I referred to it as “fairly harmless”. An acknowledgment of what you are referring to. I don’t see this as terribly different than referring to cough syrup containing DXM as fairly harmless. If you are on MAOIs or have liver issues it can be quite dangerous- but for the vast majority of the population it is perfectly safe