6 ms·

And after the years of insurance premiums going through the roof, you still consider Obamacare a success story?

tuckerman 2y ago
Not being able to exclude people because of preexisting conditions and ensuring children have access to coverage seems like a pretty big success story. Is it perfect? No, probably not. But repealing it would likely increase the budget deficit according to the CBO and put a large number of folks into a much worse situation than they are in now.
- analog31 2y ago
  Indeed, at the time it was widely understood that Obamacare was about access, not cost. This was a necessary compromise in order to placate the insurance industry. The battle over cost was left for another day.
- pton_xd 2y ago
  On the one hand, yeah of course guaranteeing coverage for children and preexisting conditions is an obvious win. And removing coverage caps. But beyond that... has average life expectancy measurably increased because of this "extra" insurance coverage? Has the number of medical-related bankruptcies measurably decreased as a result of the expanded coverage? I can't find solid data but everything I've seen suggests that those haven't really changed at all. Given that, in the grand scheme of things, has anything actually improved for us, collectively? Healthcare is much more expensive now, but maybe that would have happened regardless.
  - Tostino 2y ago
    I saw this in the thread elsewhere, but it was a great point, so I'll repeat it: https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.p https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.p... Where on the chart did Obamacare get passed / implemented? It was always about access, not cost. That pissed me off back then that single payer was not even on the table in negotiations. It was watered down to get it through, but I am still thankful that something got passed... I would still have a messed up rotator cuff from when I was 15 otherwise.
    - jackthetab 2y ago
      Your link goes to a blank page. :-?
      - BizarroLand 2y ago
        It's https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.png https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.p...
  - KetoManx64 2y ago
    One of the big consequences of government programs is the unseen costs. How many businesses never got created because of the increased burden that Obamacare placed on everyone, how many ideas never came to fruition, how many new technologies never got created? How many young entrepreneurs never took the risk that could have lead to a great new technology, found a cure for cancer, etc.?
    - mjmsmith 2y ago
      One of the big consequences of being denied health insurance is dying.
      - rapidaneurism 2y ago
        Not my Circus, as I get European 'free' coverage: is this reflected in excess death data?
      - VancouverMan 2y ago
        Problems like the need for health insurance, and the high cost of health care in general, have only arisen in the first place because unnecessary government-imposed regulation and government-imposed overhead have wiped out nearly all real competition in the health care sector, and introduced numerous other inefficiencies along the way. Artificially limiting the ability of new participants to enter the market on the supply side, for example, creates an artificially-oligopolistic environment without the natural competitive pressures that force pricing down. Even worse, this in turn results in an environment that attracts people and organizations who want to exploit these government-created inefficiencies for personal profit, rather than attracting people and organizations who want to provide higher-quality and lower-cost service than their competitors. The end result of this government intervention is artificially-high costs for abysmal service. The situation only gets worse when government tries to intervene with even more "solutions" for the problems that government itself created in the first place.
    - erehweb 2y ago
      If anything, Obamacare enables people to take entrepreneurial risk rather than have to stay with a job for otherwise-unavailable health insurance.
Cody-99 2y ago
It is objectively a success lol. The elimination of preexisting conditions and annual/lifetime coverage caps alone was huge. Not to mention the tens of millions of people who received health insurance who wouldn't have had any at all. It is insane to me you are going to sit there and try to act otherwise.
- sem000 2y ago
  Are you currently playing the premium for a family of four with a decent deductible where it doesn’t feel like you empty your pockets because you want to make sure your pain isn’t going to kill you?
  - collingreen 2y ago
    Is the implication here that if insurance is too expensive it is because of obamacare and nothing else?
    - koolba 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - nl 2y ago
        > It is because of the ACA. Linked elsewhere: https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.png https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.p... That's a pretty straight line, with no noticeable change because of ACA. > But it’s purely at the expense of the healthy subsidizing them with overly expensive policies. This is how insurance works. The US needs a proper public healthcare system. Good luck finding a way to make that happen though.
        koolba 2y ago
        > This is how insurance works. The point is not about insurance in general, it’s the isolation of the individual market from the pools of large employers. Yes the healthy will always be subsidizing the rest, but it’s a specific subset of healthy bearing that burden. It’s not the system as a whole. > The US needs a proper public healthcare system. Good luck finding a way to make that happen though. Ban corporate self insured policies so that the risk pools are unified to contain everyone. Eliminate the deduction for offering insurance. Right now the same policy is cheaper if paid by the company as its pretax dollars (vs after tax dollars for an individual policy).
pixelatedindex 2y ago
Insurance is going up across the board, it’s not a healthcare thing. Obamacare can be successful while premiums go up as well, it is not mutually exclusive.
- KetoManx64 2y ago
  How do you know that Obamacare isn't the thing that's causing insurance to go up across the board? If everyone is ensured, no matter the pre-existinf conditions, people take more risks, live more dangerously, drive a little faster, eat a bit worse, etc. Nobody ever talks about the hidden consequences of these oh so wonderful government programs.
  - test6554 2y ago
    Socialized healthcare systems tend to create stigma around peoples unhealthy choices. It no longer is harming just your health and wallet. It is costing society money. This creates an incentive to pass laws prohibiting products and lifestyles deemed unhealthy.
    - consteval 2y ago
      Privatized healthcare has the opposite incentive, whereby unhealthy choices may be ignored or even encouraged because they're a money-making opportunity.
    - KetoManx64 2y ago
      It turns into this endless cycle of "we need to ban this and ban this and ban this" and never looking at the actual cause of the problem. Just the government creating more work for itself and creating more laws to control people's actions. I think the stigma point is definitely true, but it's not doing anything to improve things. Obeise people are looked down at by society, but in the US 70% of the population is obese and the number just keeps growing. The natural incentive system is broken by government programs. Why should I bother eating healthy and limit my diet when I can just get health insurance when I get diabetes?
  - 2y ago
johnnyanmac 2y ago
Yes. Welcome to how insurance works.
whatever1 2y ago
The premiums are going up because someone has to pay for the profits of the for profit insurance companies, of the for profit hospitals etc They all have to report yoy increase of earnings right? So there enjoy your capitalistic health insurance. Which by the way dumps you once you are old, then I have to pay for you too despite the fact it is you who wanted a completely deregulated health insurance market.
VikingCoder 2y ago
Show me where on the chart PPACA came into effect. https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.png https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.p... It should be obvious, right? I don't deny that it sucks that health insurance is so expensive. Of course it sucks. And I have tons of empathy for anyone who is suffering under the expenses. But blaming our current costs on PPACA is just not supported by the evidence I'm seeing. If you have other evidence I should look at, I welcome it.
amanaplanacanal 2y ago
They were going up before the ACA. Not sure what that has to do with anything.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
drawkward 2y ago
Can you prove to me the counterfactual point: that without Obamacare, insurance premiums would have not risen?

Not being able to exclude people because of preexisting conditions and ensuring children have access to coverage seems like a pretty big success story. Is it perfect? No, probably not. But repealing it would likely increase the budget deficit according to the CBO and put a large number of folks into a much worse situation than they are in now.

analog31 2y ago
Indeed, at the time it was widely understood that Obamacare was about access, not cost. This was a necessary compromise in order to placate the insurance industry. The battle over cost was left for another day.
pton_xd 2y ago
On the one hand, yeah of course guaranteeing coverage for children and preexisting conditions is an obvious win. And removing coverage caps. But beyond that... has average life expectancy measurably increased because of this "extra" insurance coverage? Has the number of medical-related bankruptcies measurably decreased as a result of the expanded coverage? I can't find solid data but everything I've seen suggests that those haven't really changed at all. Given that, in the grand scheme of things, has anything actually improved for us, collectively? Healthcare is much more expensive now, but maybe that would have happened regardless.
- Tostino 2y ago
  I saw this in the thread elsewhere, but it was a great point, so I'll repeat it: https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.p https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.p... Where on the chart did Obamacare get passed / implemented? It was always about access, not cost. That pissed me off back then that single payer was not even on the table in negotiations. It was watered down to get it through, but I am still thankful that something got passed... I would still have a messed up rotator cuff from when I was 15 otherwise.
  - jackthetab 2y ago
    Your link goes to a blank page. :-?
    - BizarroLand 2y ago
      It's https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.png https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.p...
- KetoManx64 2y ago
  One of the big consequences of government programs is the unseen costs. How many businesses never got created because of the increased burden that Obamacare placed on everyone, how many ideas never came to fruition, how many new technologies never got created? How many young entrepreneurs never took the risk that could have lead to a great new technology, found a cure for cancer, etc.?
  - mjmsmith 2y ago
    One of the big consequences of being denied health insurance is dying.
    - rapidaneurism 2y ago
      Not my Circus, as I get European 'free' coverage: is this reflected in excess death data?
    - VancouverMan 2y ago
      Problems like the need for health insurance, and the high cost of health care in general, have only arisen in the first place because unnecessary government-imposed regulation and government-imposed overhead have wiped out nearly all real competition in the health care sector, and introduced numerous other inefficiencies along the way. Artificially limiting the ability of new participants to enter the market on the supply side, for example, creates an artificially-oligopolistic environment without the natural competitive pressures that force pricing down. Even worse, this in turn results in an environment that attracts people and organizations who want to exploit these government-created inefficiencies for personal profit, rather than attracting people and organizations who want to provide higher-quality and lower-cost service than their competitors. The end result of this government intervention is artificially-high costs for abysmal service. The situation only gets worse when government tries to intervene with even more "solutions" for the problems that government itself created in the first place.
  - erehweb 2y ago
    If anything, Obamacare enables people to take entrepreneurial risk rather than have to stay with a job for otherwise-unavailable health insurance.

Cody-99 2y ago

It is objectively a success lol. The elimination of preexisting conditions and annual/lifetime coverage caps alone was huge. Not to mention the tens of millions of people who received health insurance who wouldn't have had any at all. It is insane to me you are going to sit there and try to act otherwise.

sem000 2y ago
Are you currently playing the premium for a family of four with a decent deductible where it doesn’t feel like you empty your pockets because you want to make sure your pain isn’t going to kill you?
- collingreen 2y ago
  Is the implication here that if insurance is too expensive it is because of obamacare and nothing else?
  - koolba 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - nl 2y ago
      > It is because of the ACA. Linked elsewhere: https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.png https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.p... That's a pretty straight line, with no noticeable change because of ACA. > But it’s purely at the expense of the healthy subsidizing them with overly expensive policies. This is how insurance works. The US needs a proper public healthcare system. Good luck finding a way to make that happen though.
      - koolba 2y ago
        > This is how insurance works. The point is not about insurance in general, it’s the isolation of the individual market from the pools of large employers. Yes the healthy will always be subsidizing the rest, but it’s a specific subset of healthy bearing that burden. It’s not the system as a whole. > The US needs a proper public healthcare system. Good luck finding a way to make that happen though. Ban corporate self insured policies so that the risk pools are unified to contain everyone. Eliminate the deduction for offering insurance. Right now the same policy is cheaper if paid by the company as its pretax dollars (vs after tax dollars for an individual policy).

pixelatedindex 2y ago

Insurance is going up across the board, it’s not a healthcare thing. Obamacare can be successful while premiums go up as well, it is not mutually exclusive.

KetoManx64 2y ago
How do you know that Obamacare isn't the thing that's causing insurance to go up across the board? If everyone is ensured, no matter the pre-existinf conditions, people take more risks, live more dangerously, drive a little faster, eat a bit worse, etc. Nobody ever talks about the hidden consequences of these oh so wonderful government programs.
- test6554 2y ago
  Socialized healthcare systems tend to create stigma around peoples unhealthy choices. It no longer is harming just your health and wallet. It is costing society money. This creates an incentive to pass laws prohibiting products and lifestyles deemed unhealthy.
  - consteval 2y ago
    Privatized healthcare has the opposite incentive, whereby unhealthy choices may be ignored or even encouraged because they're a money-making opportunity.
  - KetoManx64 2y ago
    It turns into this endless cycle of "we need to ban this and ban this and ban this" and never looking at the actual cause of the problem. Just the government creating more work for itself and creating more laws to control people's actions. I think the stigma point is definitely true, but it's not doing anything to improve things. Obeise people are looked down at by society, but in the US 70% of the population is obese and the number just keeps growing. The natural incentive system is broken by government programs. Why should I bother eating healthy and limit my diet when I can just get health insurance when I get diabetes?
- 2y ago

johnnyanmac 2y ago

Yes. Welcome to how insurance works.

whatever1 2y ago

The premiums are going up because someone has to pay for the profits of the for profit insurance companies, of the for profit hospitals etc They all have to report yoy increase of earnings right? So there enjoy your capitalistic health insurance. Which by the way dumps you once you are old, then I have to pay for you too despite the fact it is you who wanted a completely deregulated health insurance market.

VikingCoder 2y ago

Show me where on the chart PPACA came into effect. https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.png https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Figure-1-12.p... It should be obvious, right? I don't deny that it sucks that health insurance is so expensive. Of course it sucks. And I have tons of empathy for anyone who is suffering under the expenses. But blaming our current costs on PPACA is just not supported by the evidence I'm seeing. If you have other evidence I should look at, I welcome it.

amanaplanacanal 2y ago

They were going up before the ACA. Not sure what that has to do with anything.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

drawkward 2y ago

Can you prove to me the counterfactual point: that without Obamacare, insurance premiums would have not risen?