6 ms·

VoRS: Vo(IP) Simple Alternative to Mumble

86 points by stargrave 2y ago

upofadown 2y ago
>...its server side is still written on Qt, which requires hundreds of megabytes of additional libraries to build it up. See: https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur
speps 2y ago
It mentions WebRTC but this project wouldn't work in browsers as it's a Go CLI tool. Is there any alternative to WebRTC nowadays? How far along is WebTransport? Anything else that could rely on older web tech?
- Karrot_Kream 2y ago
  The project just mentions WebRTC as bloated, it's not WebRTC compatible at all. WebTransport isn't there yet so browsers are hamstrung by not having access to real sockets.
  - ekr____ 2y ago
    Of course, WebTransport also isn't real sockets. It's more like WebSockets but with more modern transport semantics such as unreliable data and multiplexing without head of line blocking (as long as it's run over QUIC). For security reasons, browsers don't allow Web sites access to raw TCP or UDP sockets.
    - Karrot_Kream 2y ago
      Yeah I was being a bit sloppy equivocating the two. WebTransport gives QUIC based messaging in the browser but not TCP/UDP.
AshLeece 2y ago
Anyone able to find the source code? Can't see it listed anywhere
- subbz 2y ago
  It's here: http://www.vors.stargrave.org/Install.html http://www.vors.stargrave.org/Install.html
  - Sammi 2y ago
    I see the source is in the tar.zst file and there is documentation for uncompressing it. Only I spent minutes looking for the git repo link... There is none?
jacknews 2y ago
This is great but would need to run on windows for the typical mumble use-case of gaming. It would also be great to have this running on ESP32 or similar, so you could make dedicated IP desk intercoms - I envisage a star-trek style intercom, with each button being a channel that you can join by pushing it in (can join multiple simultaneously).
- account42 2y ago
  > This is great but would need to run on windows for the typical mumble use-case of gaming. You can game on Linux just fine.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mtndew4brkfst 2y ago
    You can certainly play a number of popular and/or high quality games on Linux, but it's hardly ubiquitous. If you're interested in a given specific game I would say your odds of it having a viable Linux experience are worse than 50/50 yet, and if it's a AAA title I'd say it's closer to 10-25% IME. If not for Valve/SteamDeck this would be even more dire, and many of those experiences are still emulation-based i.e. Proton. If you want to be able to play any given computer game being sold this year, that's only reasonably certain on Windows. Gaming is the only reason I still have a Win10 install.
    - account42 2y ago
      This is simply not true. As someone who has been gaming exclusively on Linux for over a decade I don't even bother checking for support before getting new games anymore because almost all of them just work with Wine/Proton or only need minor workarounds. The only things that do give problems (besides new releases which are promply fixes) are some multiplayer games with anti-cheat that intentionally breaks under Linux. But if you support those kinds of games then you reap what you sow. Proton is also not really magic - it's mostly just Wine + DXVK and while Valve has improved both they didn't start either of them and weren't involved before they became viable. SteamDick is entirely irrelevant here - if anything it has caused developers to not release native Linux builds because of the way Valve does certification (or unfounded fears on the devs side). > If you want to be able to play any given computer game Moving goalpoasts much? This is like saying you need to be an american in order to use computers because there are some computer models that were never exported. There are more games than you will ever be able to play which work under Linux, for any genre. For older games it is often even easier to get them to work under Wine/Proton compared to native Windows.
Karrot_Kream 2y ago
I wonder if there are plans to offer a "headless" mode where call-status is streamed to an FD instead of using a TUI. I'd love to be able to compose/wrap this tool outside of a terminal emulator. I've been idly hacking on something quite similar but using QUIC instead. One of the downsides with QUIC of course is that it assumes TLS by default which makes it inefficient for use on encrypted transports (like wireguard, zerotier, tailscale, or yggdrassil.) I'll definitely give this a go as I'm a big fan of NNCP, another project by the author.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
cies 2y ago
This is REALLY important software nowadays imho. I'm old enough to have spoken to people on analogue land lines: the sound was crisp, you could hear small background noises, you could hear someone breathe. Nowadays we usually speak to people on digital lines that are highly compressed (to the extend that is messes with the sound quality), low freq range (no bass, very high sounds) and cut up (without enough sound or when then other party makes more sound the stream is completely interrupted). And it does not have to be like this! All of this is in favour of the network operator (or centralized chat servers e.g. whatsapp) trying to save some data/money. While many of us have paid for unlimited data! On top of that much of the conversations are not properly e2e encrypted! I've used Mumble to speak to people I love over long distance and the quality is just so much better: it's like the analog experience of my childhood. Hearing ever breath, background noise and all in high quality makes all the difference some times.
- cies 2y ago
  Cool project anyone reading this may be interested in: https://github.com/Johni0702/mumble-web https://github.com/Johni0702/mumble-web I've never used it but it should make having a p2p conversation through Mumble as easy as pointing your browser to some URL. UX matters (Mumble clients, including mobile apps, are not very user friendly last time i checked: they require some level of skill to use them) Unmaintained for the last 4 years, sadly.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > I'm old enough to have spoken to people on analogue land lines: the sound was crisp You're old enough to have forgotten what land lines sounded like. They intentionally dropped frequencies from the audio signal so that they wouldn't have to carry the data contained at those frequencies. This is why nobody ever sounded like themselves over the phone.
  - cies 2y ago
    > They intentionally dropped frequencies from the audio signal so that they wouldn't have to carry the data contained at those frequencies. This is why nobody ever sounded like themselves over the phone. I remember switching from early GSM phone to a landline because I like to hear my love breathe
uyzstvqs 2y ago
> users tend to complain about [Mumble's] newer client versions quality and convenience. I have never heard anyone complain about Mumble's UX. Especially not that it has gotten worse. Or it's resource usage, which is practically unnoticeable on any average system sold past 2005. It's the best-in-class and has only gotten better.
- thfuran 2y ago
  And even if I had, I'm quite sure they wouldn't have meant they wanted it in the terminal instead.
  - tarxvf 2y ago
    Well cover me in foil and charge extra, I guess I'm rare. Why would I ever want a GUI for a voice application?
    - thfuran 2y ago
      You are aware that nearly all computer users never use the terminal at all, right? Why would they want anything other than a gui?
fionaellie 2y ago
unrelated, but I wonder if anyone can identify the terminal font used in the screenshot? I am looking for a good (free) serif monospaced font.
- lagniappe 2y ago
  That's Go Mono https://go.dev/blog/go-fonts https://go.dev/blog/go-fonts
BuildTheRobots 2y ago
The _biggest_ selling point with mumble (though I've not used it in anger in about a decade) was the way it tied in with the game you were playing and gave you in-game spacial audio. Stand next to someone in game and they came through loud and clear. Move away from them sideway and it's now quieter and only through one headphone... I found it extremely novel and immersive when I used to play FPS games; everyone on mumble but absolutely not like being in a chatroom.
lxgr 2y ago
> WebRTC-based solutions are insane bloated incredible monsters [...] They work mainly only if you use the same kind of software and codecs, for example Chromium[...] That's just not true anymore these days. I've used WebRTC between Firefox, Safari, and Chrome without any issues. > only if you use the same kind of software and codecs, for example Chromium, that requires dozens of gigabytes of disk space and much RAM, CPU time to build it. There seem to be non-browser implementations [1] [2], although I can't vouch for their quality. [1] https://liburtc.org/ https://liburtc.org/ [2] https://github.com/awslabs/amazon-kinesis-video-streams-webrtc-sdk-c https://github.com/awslabs/amazon-kinesis-video-streams-webr...
- Sean-Der 2y ago
  libdatachannel[0] is exciting me the most for 'low footprint'. str0m[1] is especially exciting, but you have to be in a device/ecosystem that allows rust. > only if you use the same kind of software and codecs With WebRTC I can connect clients with varying support of H264, VP8, VP9, AV1, Opus, ulaw and alaw. WebRTC has plenty of flaws, but 'lack of negotiation' is one of them. [0] https://github.com/paullouisageneau/libdatachannel https://github.com/paullouisageneau/libdatachannel [1] https://github.com/algesten/str0m https://github.com/algesten/str0m
  - lxgr 2y ago
    Oh, this looks great! Also thank you for Pion :) Edit: Woah, I somehow completely missed that Pion does WebRTC media too (I've only seen it in a data channel project I've toyed around with in the past). Definitely add that to my list above, and I can somewhat vouch for it, it's cool!
    - Sean-Der 2y ago
      Thank you so much for using it. I feel so honored(and surprised) that people use it. I totally stumbled into a successful project. If I ever can be helpful with your projects reach out!
- Karrot_Kream 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
d-z-m 2y ago
> You have to verify downloaded tarballs authenticity to be sure that you retrieved trusted and untampered software. I'm not able to access the site over TLS, so this is currently impossible. Anyone else have better luck? (from the installation instructions) $ [fetch|wget] http://www.vors.stargrave.org/download/. vors-2.3.0.tar.zst $ [fetch|wget] http://www.vors.stargrave.org/download/vors-2.3.0.tar.zst.sig [verify signature] $ tar xf vors-2.3.0.tar.zst Guarantees nothing, if you're actually being attacked. You can't serve out the tarball and the public key[0] and the signature insecurely and get any guarantees about authenticity. [0]:http://www.vors.stargrave.org/PUBKEY-SSH.pub http://www.vors.stargrave.org/PUBKEY-SSH.pub
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- someguydave 2y ago
  I can see your point about a man-in-the-middle attack on HTTP, but realistically if the the attacker can do the MITM he can probably also figure out how to modify the contents on the webserver, in which case TLS does nothing
  - d-z-m 2y ago
    > realistically if the the attacker can do the MITM he can probably also figure out how to modify the contents on the webserver, in which case TLS does nothing Sorry, I don't see how that follows. If you had access to the webserver you would never even attempt a MITM attack in the first place.
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  Most websites these days use Crimeflare or equivalent already anyways which is a MITM proxy, so you're still not safe there either.
  - d-z-m 2y ago
    Yes, however there's a big difference between Cloudflare and an arbitrary MITM. If you think Cloudflare is mangling traffic in a malicious way you would need a shred of evidence to substantiate that claim. I would also push back that "most websites" use a 3rd party TLS terminating CDN/proxy layer in front of the actual webserver.
aftbit 2y ago
>No GUI requirement. Why would someone need a GUI for voice application? But a fancy real-time refreshing TUI would be desirable. Mumble tends to output no information, sometimes hiding the fact of a problem and that everything stopped working. Eh why would someone need a fancy real-time refreshing TUI for a voice application? Just write logs to stderr and status updates to stdout like regular people. Honestly, go a step further. Take microphone audio in on stdin and produce speaker audio out on stdout. Then you can skip ALSA/OSS/jack/pipewire/pulseaudio support and just leave that to the user to compose.
- rnhmjoj 2y ago
  You've practically described baresip.
kimi 2y ago
I'm not sure I understand the reason why; for non-browser, you can set up a FreePBX or something in 20 minutes and it will work with any softphone. But if I was to use a chat today, I'd use something in-browser, so based on WebRTC and incidentally peer-to-peer (well, kinda, but voice/video flow will be). So not sure I understand who/what this is for.

86 points by stargrave 2y ago

>...its server side is still written on Qt, which requires hundreds of megabytes of additional libraries to build it up. See: https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur

speps 2y ago

It mentions WebRTC but this project wouldn't work in browsers as it's a Go CLI tool. Is there any alternative to WebRTC nowadays? How far along is WebTransport? Anything else that could rely on older web tech?

Karrot_Kream 2y ago
The project just mentions WebRTC as bloated, it's not WebRTC compatible at all. WebTransport isn't there yet so browsers are hamstrung by not having access to real sockets.
- ekr____ 2y ago
  Of course, WebTransport also isn't real sockets. It's more like WebSockets but with more modern transport semantics such as unreliable data and multiplexing without head of line blocking (as long as it's run over QUIC). For security reasons, browsers don't allow Web sites access to raw TCP or UDP sockets.
  - Karrot_Kream 2y ago
    Yeah I was being a bit sloppy equivocating the two. WebTransport gives QUIC based messaging in the browser but not TCP/UDP.

AshLeece 2y ago

Anyone able to find the source code? Can't see it listed anywhere

subbz 2y ago
It's here: http://www.vors.stargrave.org/Install.html http://www.vors.stargrave.org/Install.html
- Sammi 2y ago
  I see the source is in the tar.zst file and there is documentation for uncompressing it. Only I spent minutes looking for the git repo link... There is none?

jacknews 2y ago

This is great but would need to run on windows for the typical mumble use-case of gaming. It would also be great to have this running on ESP32 or similar, so you could make dedicated IP desk intercoms - I envisage a star-trek style intercom, with each button being a channel that you can join by pushing it in (can join multiple simultaneously).

account42 2y ago
> This is great but would need to run on windows for the typical mumble use-case of gaming. You can game on Linux just fine.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mtndew4brkfst 2y ago
  You can certainly play a number of popular and/or high quality games on Linux, but it's hardly ubiquitous. If you're interested in a given specific game I would say your odds of it having a viable Linux experience are worse than 50/50 yet, and if it's a AAA title I'd say it's closer to 10-25% IME. If not for Valve/SteamDeck this would be even more dire, and many of those experiences are still emulation-based i.e. Proton. If you want to be able to play any given computer game being sold this year, that's only reasonably certain on Windows. Gaming is the only reason I still have a Win10 install.
  - account42 2y ago
    This is simply not true. As someone who has been gaming exclusively on Linux for over a decade I don't even bother checking for support before getting new games anymore because almost all of them just work with Wine/Proton or only need minor workarounds. The only things that do give problems (besides new releases which are promply fixes) are some multiplayer games with anti-cheat that intentionally breaks under Linux. But if you support those kinds of games then you reap what you sow. Proton is also not really magic - it's mostly just Wine + DXVK and while Valve has improved both they didn't start either of them and weren't involved before they became viable. SteamDick is entirely irrelevant here - if anything it has caused developers to not release native Linux builds because of the way Valve does certification (or unfounded fears on the devs side). > If you want to be able to play any given computer game Moving goalpoasts much? This is like saying you need to be an american in order to use computers because there are some computer models that were never exported. There are more games than you will ever be able to play which work under Linux, for any genre. For older games it is often even easier to get them to work under Wine/Proton compared to native Windows.

Karrot_Kream 2y ago

I wonder if there are plans to offer a "headless" mode where call-status is streamed to an FD instead of using a TUI. I'd love to be able to compose/wrap this tool outside of a terminal emulator. I've been idly hacking on something quite similar but using QUIC instead. One of the downsides with QUIC of course is that it assumes TLS by default which makes it inefficient for use on encrypted transports (like wireguard, zerotier, tailscale, or yggdrassil.) I'll definitely give this a go as I'm a big fan of NNCP, another project by the author.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

cies 2y ago

This is REALLY important software nowadays imho. I'm old enough to have spoken to people on analogue land lines: the sound was crisp, you could hear small background noises, you could hear someone breathe. Nowadays we usually speak to people on digital lines that are highly compressed (to the extend that is messes with the sound quality), low freq range (no bass, very high sounds) and cut up (without enough sound or when then other party makes more sound the stream is completely interrupted). And it does not have to be like this! All of this is in favour of the network operator (or centralized chat servers e.g. whatsapp) trying to save some data/money. While many of us have paid for unlimited data! On top of that much of the conversations are not properly e2e encrypted! I've used Mumble to speak to people I love over long distance and the quality is just so much better: it's like the analog experience of my childhood. Hearing ever breath, background noise and all in high quality makes all the difference some times.

cies 2y ago
Cool project anyone reading this may be interested in: https://github.com/Johni0702/mumble-web https://github.com/Johni0702/mumble-web I've never used it but it should make having a p2p conversation through Mumble as easy as pointing your browser to some URL. UX matters (Mumble clients, including mobile apps, are not very user friendly last time i checked: they require some level of skill to use them) Unmaintained for the last 4 years, sadly.
thaumasiotes 2y ago
> I'm old enough to have spoken to people on analogue land lines: the sound was crisp You're old enough to have forgotten what land lines sounded like. They intentionally dropped frequencies from the audio signal so that they wouldn't have to carry the data contained at those frequencies. This is why nobody ever sounded like themselves over the phone.
- cies 2y ago
  > They intentionally dropped frequencies from the audio signal so that they wouldn't have to carry the data contained at those frequencies. This is why nobody ever sounded like themselves over the phone. I remember switching from early GSM phone to a landline because I like to hear my love breathe

uyzstvqs 2y ago

> users tend to complain about [Mumble's] newer client versions quality and convenience. I have never heard anyone complain about Mumble's UX. Especially not that it has gotten worse. Or it's resource usage, which is practically unnoticeable on any average system sold past 2005. It's the best-in-class and has only gotten better.

thfuran 2y ago
And even if I had, I'm quite sure they wouldn't have meant they wanted it in the terminal instead.
- tarxvf 2y ago
  Well cover me in foil and charge extra, I guess I'm rare. Why would I ever want a GUI for a voice application?
  - thfuran 2y ago
    You are aware that nearly all computer users never use the terminal at all, right? Why would they want anything other than a gui?

fionaellie 2y ago

unrelated, but I wonder if anyone can identify the terminal font used in the screenshot? I am looking for a good (free) serif monospaced font.

lagniappe 2y ago
That's Go Mono https://go.dev/blog/go-fonts https://go.dev/blog/go-fonts

BuildTheRobots 2y ago

The _biggest_ selling point with mumble (though I've not used it in anger in about a decade) was the way it tied in with the game you were playing and gave you in-game spacial audio. Stand next to someone in game and they came through loud and clear. Move away from them sideway and it's now quieter and only through one headphone... I found it extremely novel and immersive when I used to play FPS games; everyone on mumble but absolutely not like being in a chatroom.

lxgr 2y ago

> WebRTC-based solutions are insane bloated incredible monsters [...] They work mainly only if you use the same kind of software and codecs, for example Chromium[...] That's just not true anymore these days. I've used WebRTC between Firefox, Safari, and Chrome without any issues. > only if you use the same kind of software and codecs, for example Chromium, that requires dozens of gigabytes of disk space and much RAM, CPU time to build it. There seem to be non-browser implementations [1] [2], although I can't vouch for their quality. [1] https://liburtc.org/ https://liburtc.org/ [2] https://github.com/awslabs/amazon-kinesis-video-streams-webrtc-sdk-c https://github.com/awslabs/amazon-kinesis-video-streams-webr...

Sean-Der 2y ago
libdatachannel[0] is exciting me the most for 'low footprint'. str0m[1] is especially exciting, but you have to be in a device/ecosystem that allows rust. > only if you use the same kind of software and codecs With WebRTC I can connect clients with varying support of H264, VP8, VP9, AV1, Opus, ulaw and alaw. WebRTC has plenty of flaws, but 'lack of negotiation' is one of them. [0] https://github.com/paullouisageneau/libdatachannel https://github.com/paullouisageneau/libdatachannel [1] https://github.com/algesten/str0m https://github.com/algesten/str0m
- lxgr 2y ago
  Oh, this looks great! Also thank you for Pion :) Edit: Woah, I somehow completely missed that Pion does WebRTC media too (I've only seen it in a data channel project I've toyed around with in the past). Definitely add that to my list above, and I can somewhat vouch for it, it's cool!
  - Sean-Der 2y ago
    Thank you so much for using it. I feel so honored(and surprised) that people use it. I totally stumbled into a successful project. If I ever can be helpful with your projects reach out!
Karrot_Kream 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

d-z-m 2y ago

> You have to verify downloaded tarballs authenticity to be sure that you retrieved trusted and untampered software. I'm not able to access the site over TLS, so this is currently impossible. Anyone else have better luck? (from the installation instructions) $ [fetch|wget] http://www.vors.stargrave.org/download/. vors-2.3.0.tar.zst $ [fetch|wget] http://www.vors.stargrave.org/download/vors-2.3.0.tar.zst.sig [verify signature] $ tar xf vors-2.3.0.tar.zst Guarantees nothing, if you're actually being attacked. You can't serve out the tarball and the public key[0] and the signature insecurely and get any guarantees about authenticity. [0]:http://www.vors.stargrave.org/PUBKEY-SSH.pub http://www.vors.stargrave.org/PUBKEY-SSH.pub

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
someguydave 2y ago
I can see your point about a man-in-the-middle attack on HTTP, but realistically if the the attacker can do the MITM he can probably also figure out how to modify the contents on the webserver, in which case TLS does nothing
- d-z-m 2y ago
  > realistically if the the attacker can do the MITM he can probably also figure out how to modify the contents on the webserver, in which case TLS does nothing Sorry, I don't see how that follows. If you had access to the webserver you would never even attempt a MITM attack in the first place.
ranger_danger 2y ago
Most websites these days use Crimeflare or equivalent already anyways which is a MITM proxy, so you're still not safe there either.
- d-z-m 2y ago
  Yes, however there's a big difference between Cloudflare and an arbitrary MITM. If you think Cloudflare is mangling traffic in a malicious way you would need a shred of evidence to substantiate that claim. I would also push back that "most websites" use a 3rd party TLS terminating CDN/proxy layer in front of the actual webserver.

aftbit 2y ago

>No GUI requirement. Why would someone need a GUI for voice application? But a fancy real-time refreshing TUI would be desirable. Mumble tends to output no information, sometimes hiding the fact of a problem and that everything stopped working. Eh why would someone need a fancy real-time refreshing TUI for a voice application? Just write logs to stderr and status updates to stdout like regular people. Honestly, go a step further. Take microphone audio in on stdin and produce speaker audio out on stdout. Then you can skip ALSA/OSS/jack/pipewire/pulseaudio support and just leave that to the user to compose.

rnhmjoj 2y ago
You've practically described baresip.

kimi 2y ago

I'm not sure I understand the reason why; for non-browser, you can set up a FreePBX or something in 20 minutes and it will work with any softphone. But if I was to use a chat today, I'd use something in-browser, so based on WebRTC and incidentally peer-to-peer (well, kinda, but voice/video flow will be). So not sure I understand who/what this is for.