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If you check the other articles about the PlayStation [1] and the Nintendo 64 [2], you'll see that the design of a 3D-capable console in the 90s was a significa

If you check the other articles about the PlayStation [1] and the Nintendo 64 [2], you'll see that the design of a 3D-capable console in the 90s was a significant challenge for every company. Thus, each one proposed a different solution (with different pros and cons), yet all very interesting to analyse and compare. That's the reason this article was written. [1] https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/playstation/ https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/playstation/ [2] https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/nintendo-64/ https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/nintendo-64/

nolok 2y ago
Oh I was not criticizing the article per se, my apologies if it came out as such, I just thought this piece of information was important to understand why they ended up with such a random mash of chips.
- flipacholas 2y ago
  Ah no worries! From my side I was only trying to explain more about the origins of the article, since I see it often mentioned/speculated in many forums. By the way, I'm always open to criticism ! (https://github.com/flipacholas/Architecture-of-consoles/issues https://github.com/flipacholas/Architecture-of-consoles/issu...)
  - polpo 2y ago
    Thanks for the link – just opened an issue concerning the font weight and text color on the site.
christkv 2y ago
I do wonder what would have happened if the N64 had included a much bigger texture cache. It seemed the tiny size was it biggest con.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  Wasn't the thing you put in the slot infront of the cart a ram extension slot? I think you can play Rogue Squadron with and without if you want to compare. Or do youe mean some lower cache level?
  - skhr0680 2y ago
    that pack added 4MB extra RAM, OOT and Majora’s Mask are like night and day thanks to it. The N64 had mere kilobytes of texture cache, AFAIK the solution was to stream textures, but it took awhile for developers to figure that out
    - VelesDude 2y ago
      N64 had a 4KB texture cache while the Ps1 had a 2KB cache. But the N64's mip-mapping requirement meant that it essentially had 2KB + lower resolution maps. The streaming helped it a lot but I think the cost of larger carts was a big drag on what developers could do. It is one thing to stream textures but if you cannot afford the cart size in the first place it becomes merely academic.
      - skhr0680 2y ago
        I don’t think storage space was an issue for graphics in particular. Remember the base system had 4MB memory and 320x240 resolution
      - pezezin 2y ago
        The real problem was different. The PS1 cache was a real cache, managed transparently by the hardware. Textures could take the full 1 MB of VRAM (minus the framebuffer, of course). In contrast, the N64 had a 4 kB texture RAM. That's it, all your textures for the current mesh had to fit in just 4 kB. If you wanted bigger textures, you had to come up with all sort of programming tricks.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  The other big problem with the N64 was that the RAM had such high latency that it completely undid any benefit from the supposedly higher bandwidth that RDRAM had and the console was constantly memory starved. The RDP could rasterize hundreds of thousands of triangles a second but as soon as you put any texture or shading on them, the memory accesses slowed you right down. UMA plus high latency memory was the wrong move. In fact, in many situations you can "de-optimize" the rendering to draw and redraw more, as long as it uses less memory bandwidth, and end up with a higher FPS in your game.
Grazester 2y ago
This should have been no struggle for Sega. They basically invented the modern 3D game and dominated in the arcade with very advanced 3D games at the time. Did they not leverage Yu Suzuki and the AM division when creating the Saturn? Then again rumor has it they were still stuck on 2D for the home market and then saw the PlayStation specs and freaked and ordered 2 of everything in the Saturn.
- VyseofArcadia 2y ago
  In interviews IIRC ex-Sega staff has stated that they thought they had one more console generation before a 3D-first console was viable to the home market. Sure, they could do it right then and there, but it would be kind of janky. Consumers would rather have solid arcade-quality 2D games than glitchy home ports of 3D ones. Then Sony decided that the wow factor was worth kind of janky graphics (affine texture mapping, egregious pop-in, only 16-bit color, aliasing out the wazoo, etc.) and the rest is history. Nintendo managed largely not-janky graphics with the N64, but it did come out 2-3 years after the Saturn and Playstation.
  - jandrese 2y ago
    “Not janky” is a weird way of describing the N64’s graphics. Sure Mario looked good, but have you seen most other games on that platform?
    - paulryanrogers 2y ago
      Well it had a proper Z buffer so textures didn't wiggle. Now the fog, draw distance, and texture resolution combined with blurring were terrible. It was basically the haze console.
      - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
        Hope it's okay that I just reply to everyone Wiggling is down to lack of precision and lack of subpixel rendering, unrelated to Z buffering. Z buffers are for hidden surface removal, if you see wiggling on a single triangle floating in a void, it's not a Z buffer problem. When you see models clipping through themselves because the triangles can't hide each other, that's the lack of Z buffer.
m45t3r 2y ago
> you'll see that the design of a 3D-capable console in the 90s was a significant challenge for every company. While this is true, I still think that the PlayStation had the most interesting and forwarding looking design of its generation, especially considering the constraints. The design is significantly cheaper than both Saturn and Nintendo 64, it was fully 3D (compared to Saturn for example), using CD as media was spot-on and also having the MJPEG decoder (that allowed PlayStation to have not only significantly higher video quality than its rivals, but also allowed video to be used for backgrounds for much better quality graphics, see for example Resident Evil or Final Fantasy series). I really wanted to see a design inspired in the first PlayStation with more memory (since the low memory compared to its rivals was an issue it seemed, especially in e.g.: 2D fighting games where the amount of animations had to be cut a lot compared to Saturn) and maybe some more hardware accelators to help fix some of the issues that plagued the platform.
- ehaliewicz2 2y ago
  It is not really any more 3D than the Saturn as it still does texture mapping in 2D space, same as the saturn. It's biggest advantage when it came to 3D graphics, aside from higher performance, was it's UV mapping. They both stretch flat 2D textured shapes around to fake 3D. The N64 is really far beyond the other two in terms of being "fully 3D", with it's fully perspective correct z buffering and texture mapping, let alone mipmapping with bilinear blending and subpixel correct rasterization.
  - VelesDude 2y ago
    This is very true. I consider then N64 to be the first to use anything that resembles hardware vague similar to what the rest of the industry ended up with. It is a shame that SGI's management didn't see a future in PC 3D accelerator cards, it lead to the formation of 3DFX and with things like that SGI's value in the market was crushed astoundingly fast. They had the future but short term thinking blinded them to the path ahead.
  - m45t3r 2y ago
    But N64 was a more expensive design, and also came almost 2 years later, and from an architectural standpoint it also had significant issues (e.g.: the texture cache size that someone said above). This is why I said considering the constraints, I find the first PlayStation to be impressive.

nolok 2y ago

Oh I was not criticizing the article per se, my apologies if it came out as such, I just thought this piece of information was important to understand why they ended up with such a random mash of chips.

flipacholas 2y ago
Ah no worries! From my side I was only trying to explain more about the origins of the article, since I see it often mentioned/speculated in many forums. By the way, I'm always open to criticism ! (https://github.com/flipacholas/Architecture-of-consoles/issues https://github.com/flipacholas/Architecture-of-consoles/issu...)
- polpo 2y ago
  Thanks for the link – just opened an issue concerning the font weight and text color on the site.

christkv 2y ago

I do wonder what would have happened if the N64 had included a much bigger texture cache. It seemed the tiny size was it biggest con.

rightbyte 2y ago
Wasn't the thing you put in the slot infront of the cart a ram extension slot? I think you can play Rogue Squadron with and without if you want to compare. Or do youe mean some lower cache level?
- skhr0680 2y ago
  that pack added 4MB extra RAM, OOT and Majora’s Mask are like night and day thanks to it. The N64 had mere kilobytes of texture cache, AFAIK the solution was to stream textures, but it took awhile for developers to figure that out
  - VelesDude 2y ago
    N64 had a 4KB texture cache while the Ps1 had a 2KB cache. But the N64's mip-mapping requirement meant that it essentially had 2KB + lower resolution maps. The streaming helped it a lot but I think the cost of larger carts was a big drag on what developers could do. It is one thing to stream textures but if you cannot afford the cart size in the first place it becomes merely academic.
    - skhr0680 2y ago
      I don’t think storage space was an issue for graphics in particular. Remember the base system had 4MB memory and 320x240 resolution
    - pezezin 2y ago
      The real problem was different. The PS1 cache was a real cache, managed transparently by the hardware. Textures could take the full 1 MB of VRAM (minus the framebuffer, of course). In contrast, the N64 had a 4 kB texture RAM. That's it, all your textures for the current mesh had to fit in just 4 kB. If you wanted bigger textures, you had to come up with all sort of programming tricks.
mrguyorama 2y ago
The other big problem with the N64 was that the RAM had such high latency that it completely undid any benefit from the supposedly higher bandwidth that RDRAM had and the console was constantly memory starved. The RDP could rasterize hundreds of thousands of triangles a second but as soon as you put any texture or shading on them, the memory accesses slowed you right down. UMA plus high latency memory was the wrong move. In fact, in many situations you can "de-optimize" the rendering to draw and redraw more, as long as it uses less memory bandwidth, and end up with a higher FPS in your game.

Grazester 2y ago

This should have been no struggle for Sega. They basically invented the modern 3D game and dominated in the arcade with very advanced 3D games at the time. Did they not leverage Yu Suzuki and the AM division when creating the Saturn? Then again rumor has it they were still stuck on 2D for the home market and then saw the PlayStation specs and freaked and ordered 2 of everything in the Saturn.

VyseofArcadia 2y ago
In interviews IIRC ex-Sega staff has stated that they thought they had one more console generation before a 3D-first console was viable to the home market. Sure, they could do it right then and there, but it would be kind of janky. Consumers would rather have solid arcade-quality 2D games than glitchy home ports of 3D ones. Then Sony decided that the wow factor was worth kind of janky graphics (affine texture mapping, egregious pop-in, only 16-bit color, aliasing out the wazoo, etc.) and the rest is history. Nintendo managed largely not-janky graphics with the N64, but it did come out 2-3 years after the Saturn and Playstation.
- jandrese 2y ago
  “Not janky” is a weird way of describing the N64’s graphics. Sure Mario looked good, but have you seen most other games on that platform?
  - paulryanrogers 2y ago
    Well it had a proper Z buffer so textures didn't wiggle. Now the fog, draw distance, and texture resolution combined with blurring were terrible. It was basically the haze console.
    - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
      Hope it's okay that I just reply to everyone Wiggling is down to lack of precision and lack of subpixel rendering, unrelated to Z buffering. Z buffers are for hidden surface removal, if you see wiggling on a single triangle floating in a void, it's not a Z buffer problem. When you see models clipping through themselves because the triangles can't hide each other, that's the lack of Z buffer.

m45t3r 2y ago

> you'll see that the design of a 3D-capable console in the 90s was a significant challenge for every company. While this is true, I still think that the PlayStation had the most interesting and forwarding looking design of its generation, especially considering the constraints. The design is significantly cheaper than both Saturn and Nintendo 64, it was fully 3D (compared to Saturn for example), using CD as media was spot-on and also having the MJPEG decoder (that allowed PlayStation to have not only significantly higher video quality than its rivals, but also allowed video to be used for backgrounds for much better quality graphics, see for example Resident Evil or Final Fantasy series). I really wanted to see a design inspired in the first PlayStation with more memory (since the low memory compared to its rivals was an issue it seemed, especially in e.g.: 2D fighting games where the amount of animations had to be cut a lot compared to Saturn) and maybe some more hardware accelators to help fix some of the issues that plagued the platform.

ehaliewicz2 2y ago
It is not really any more 3D than the Saturn as it still does texture mapping in 2D space, same as the saturn. It's biggest advantage when it came to 3D graphics, aside from higher performance, was it's UV mapping. They both stretch flat 2D textured shapes around to fake 3D. The N64 is really far beyond the other two in terms of being "fully 3D", with it's fully perspective correct z buffering and texture mapping, let alone mipmapping with bilinear blending and subpixel correct rasterization.
- VelesDude 2y ago
  This is very true. I consider then N64 to be the first to use anything that resembles hardware vague similar to what the rest of the industry ended up with. It is a shame that SGI's management didn't see a future in PC 3D accelerator cards, it lead to the formation of 3DFX and with things like that SGI's value in the market was crushed astoundingly fast. They had the future but short term thinking blinded them to the path ahead.
- m45t3r 2y ago
  But N64 was a more expensive design, and also came almost 2 years later, and from an architectural standpoint it also had significant issues (e.g.: the texture cache size that someone said above). This is why I said considering the constraints, I find the first PlayStation to be impressive.