6 ms·

Meta takes $40K, holds our business ransom

174 points by rohansingh 2y ago

cco 2y ago
Unconscionable for a 1.3T company to behave this way towards a small business.
- sarlalian 2y ago
  If there was meaningful choice in this space, they wouldn't act this way. Companies that have to deal with the possibility of their customers going to a competitor, generally have better customer service and better customer systems.
  - throwway120385 2y ago
    Which is a really good argument for breaking up companies the size of Meta.
- mr_toad 2y ago
  Large businesses are absolutely notorious for stiffing small businesses. They overcharge and underpay all the time. Businesses often have employees devoted to chasing down invoices.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  That is free market capitalism as we have it... And big companies working like this is one reason why they are big.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mcv 2y ago
I can't imagine using a credit card for something like this, but if you do, isn't this exactly what the chargeback is for? They clearly don't recognise your credit card payment, so the chargeback can't reasonably get you in trouble either. If the notice the chargeback at all, at least they'll figure out that you did pay them after all. I'd use the payment method you used before, because that always worked, and then chargeback the old payment that clearly didn't work. How are they going to side with Facebook when you've got all that documentation that they don't recognise that payment?
- rohansingh 2y ago
  I'm definitely considering it but trying to make sure we fully, thoroughly exhaust all other channels. Totally agree that it wouldn't be "reasonable" to permanently suspend our account for a chargeback in this scenario, but it's hard to know what's reasonable at this point. Sucks to say it but having to double-pay this invoice may still be a better scenario than having the business fully banned from Meta Ads.
  - oneshtein 2y ago
    Pay again then chargeback previous payment. You have full right to chargeback extra money.
    - rohansingh 2y ago
      It's not possible to pay by credit card again — just get a generic error when trying to open the payment form. So it would have to be by wire transfer, for which there are no chargeback protections.
      - nocoiner 2y ago
        Right, but, pay by wire to settle what Meta thinks is outstanding, and then initiate the chargeback process. At least during the pendency of that process, you’ll have that wire transfer documentation that seems to be the only thing Meta can comprehend, and you can (hopefully, fingers crossed, get back up and running). I get that there’s a real risk here that you could wind up out another $40k at the end of the day and your problem still isn’t solved, but if losing access to the Meta market is as fundamental a risk to the business as I took away from the post, then it seems to me like job one is to ensure that the business survives and that the (admittedly unpleasant) process of getting trued-up on the $40k is exactly the kind of thing that your lawyer is for.
        rohansingh 2y ago
        You're probably right. We can hopefully get back the money, but there's no getting back the lost revenue. Missed the wire cutoff for today but guess I know what I'll be doing tomorrow.
mat_epice 2y ago
Dispute the charge with Amex, like you probably should have done at first sign of trouble. You can do this even after paying the bill.
- j45 2y ago
  Undertaking a claim that there is no one you can speak to Facebook about this will help them quickly find someone to talk to you and respond to the credit card company and you.
  - throwway120385 2y ago
    Yeah, disputing the charge might be better than a straight chargeback. The merchant gets to respond to the dispute and provide evidence, and if they clearly deny having issued the charge then it gets reversed and you can move on.
    - j45 2y ago
      Also playing hardball with a chargeback makes it almost but certain your entire account will get shut down. The goal is to get someone's attention because Facebook is so big.
  - devoutsalsa 2y ago
    When standard channels aren't working, complain to someone who can do something about it. A couple of times in my life, I've had good luck contacting the office of Chairpman of the Board. I had problem with a debt collector of American Express, I was a financial delinquent in those days, and I contacted American Express directly. I asked for the Chairman of the Board's office, and talked to his assistant. I explained the situation about how I was being lied to by the debt collector, the assistant arranged to have the debt recalled to American Express, and I worked w/ Amex directly after that. Another time, also w/ Amex, my friend's consulting invoice wasn't being paid my Amex in a timely manner. I recommended she contact them using the same approach, and an assistant helped her get paid. More recently, I had a problem getting my tax return processed with the Internal Revenue Service. I complained to my Congressman, his office put me in touch with a tax advocate at the IRS, and everything was cleared up. This is the second time I needed to do this.
paulpauper 2y ago
This is totally unacceptable on the part of Meta. Hope you get it resolved.
- rohansingh 2y ago
  Thanks Paul, appreciate it. Still trying to reach out to anyone and everyone.
2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
I can’t believe how shoddy the CC payment is. And “the ad platform is known to be buggy”. Are you serious? I’m sure they hire only the best
- rohansingh 2y ago
  It's truly a bummer. I posted about this in a Meta alumni group, and here's a couple different responses that I received: > Same exact situation. Millions in spend. Jumped over to TikTok. > Nearly every time I interact with the ads products, I hit multiple bugs ...
  - 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
    How is this even possible? Billions of dollars and they can’t fix this? Hire me. I’ll fix it for 20 million.
    - lancesells 2y ago
      It's buggy and I use it enough to know a lot of the bugs. Lately though it's buggy when trying to publish new ads and updates to ads. It's super frustrating.
    - JeremyNT 2y ago
      If you can be so abusive to your customers and provide such a terrible experience and people still line up to do business with you it's a sure sign that you're basically a monopoly. If you have no serious competition you have no incentive to do better.
annoyingnoob 2y ago
I would file a lawsuit. Guaranteed that Meta will respond to a lawsuit. You've provided Meta with all the evidence they need and they refuse to acknowledge it. The courts will help them see things your way. Be sure to include your attorney's fees in the suit.
- eadler 2y ago
  What would be the cause of action? Which statute authorizes fee shifting for attorneys fees?
  - sdwr 2y ago
    I'm no lawyer, but the 2 angles I see are failure to provide agreed services (that were paid for!), and double billing. Not having recourse for being deplatformed sucks, but for the rest, take the Internet out of the equation and it's a bog-standard contract dispute between companies, that the law is well-equipped to handle.
- cynicalsecurity 2y ago
  I'm surprised a company can behave like this in the first place and just ignore a customer they charged for 40K without registering it. It's extremely unprofessional.
- delfinom 2y ago
  You don't even need to file a lawsuit, a legal demand letter written by an attorney is cheap, they can attach the documentation and send it to Meta's legal. That will probably get their attention to get someone to clobber heads.
- otterley 2y ago
  A lawsuit is never the first action to take. Always send an email and physical mail to the company's general counsel first. Odds are it'll be dealt with straight away.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
sneak 2y ago
Former internal employee can't even get backchannel help with Facebook's insanely customer-hostile purchasing process, has to resort to court of public opinion to (maybe) get resolution. What a great ad for Meta's regard for their customers. This company actively makes the world worse and anyone giving them a single dollar of revenue is participating in that. Follow Tesla's example and delete your Instagram and Facebook accounts. "We have to use it for our business" is a lie people tell themselves.
- stevage 2y ago
  Tesla is the extremely rare example of a business that is interesting enough that people write about them for free. They don't need to advertise.
  - lancesells 2y ago
    I know they didn't in the past but they do now. I've seen ads on Youtube from them ever since my adblocker stopped working. Sadly the ads are just straight up stock automotive ads.
    - stevage 2y ago
      >Sadly the ads are just straight up stock automotive ads. I guess it makes sense - all the people who are excited about Tesla as a company don't need the ads. So, reaching people who just want to ... buy a car?
  - sangnoir 2y ago
    *was. Tesla's keel the bottom of their demand pool a few quarters ago and are no longer selling evey car made. The 2 levers at their disposal to boost sales are price cuts and marketing (ads), and they've already started on the former...
stevage 2y ago
Honestly I think the best way to get this resolved is making a lot of noise. Eventually someone at FB in the right place notices and fixes it. So you're doing the right thing. Oh and a letter from a lawyer.
ipaddr 2y ago
You've paid facebook millions in the last few years. Another 37k is only a small % of that. Pay them another 37k and take it as a lesson learned not to use a credit card with them. Write off as loss. Or sue / chargeback and end your relationship with the platform. Either way it has become a marketing opportunity that is probably worth the 37k.
whydoineedthis 2y ago
I try once to resolve things...and then I just keep insisting they provide thier mailing address for my small claim suit. I say it kindly and matter of fact, not angrily. I talk about it as if it's just normal business for me. I might say 'I appreciate you trying to help, but I have spent 1 hr on this to no avail, it's just more time and cost efficient to file small claims suite. Judges have a way of getting to it quick. What is the business mailing address for legal correspondence?'. I wouldn't say it works like magic, but I can say it has worked several times.
frankus 2y ago
No idea if it helps with this sort of thing but one hack that patio11 recommends is to own a de minimus amount of stock in the company to have shareholder relations available as a channel for contacting someone who can fix things.
dtagames 2y ago
Stop giving FB $40k, or any money. You're only feeding the beast, which won't make it stop.
enos_feedler 2y ago
Meta took $50 from my paypal account because someone got into an ads portal and ran a campaign. Tried escalating with Paypal and no word from Meta. That $50 seems gone. Meta did lock down my ads account though. Can’t believe they won’t refund the transfer
bert2002 2y ago
Your product looks awesome!
theogravity 2y ago
CFBP? I know it's consumer finance, but might be worth a try. I've had success with the two cases I've filed in the past. Got my money back in both. https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
rohansingh 2y ago
UPDATE (2024-03-26): A business development manager at Meta saw this post yesterday and escalated the issue internally. They provisionally unsuspended our account this morning. This afternoon, the collections team confirmed that they received our payment, and applied it to the account. Thanks to everyone for their advice and input. For what it's worth, we'll definitely maintain a presence on Meta, but our team is taking a second look at TikTok for marketing.
- ivraatiems 2y ago
  Glad to hear you got this figured out. Shame it required HN to act as your support hotline.
  - rohansingh 2y ago
    Yeah... unfortunately it seems like "problem with major company, can't get support" has become an entire genre of HN post.
- KomoD 2y ago
  It's insane that this is what it takes to get it resolved.
hackburg 2y ago
[dead]

174 points by rohansingh 2y ago

cco 2y ago

Unconscionable for a 1.3T company to behave this way towards a small business.

sarlalian 2y ago
If there was meaningful choice in this space, they wouldn't act this way. Companies that have to deal with the possibility of their customers going to a competitor, generally have better customer service and better customer systems.
- throwway120385 2y ago
  Which is a really good argument for breaking up companies the size of Meta.
mr_toad 2y ago
Large businesses are absolutely notorious for stiffing small businesses. They overcharge and underpay all the time. Businesses often have employees devoted to chasing down invoices.
Ekaros 2y ago
That is free market capitalism as we have it... And big companies working like this is one reason why they are big.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mcv 2y ago

I can't imagine using a credit card for something like this, but if you do, isn't this exactly what the chargeback is for? They clearly don't recognise your credit card payment, so the chargeback can't reasonably get you in trouble either. If the notice the chargeback at all, at least they'll figure out that you did pay them after all. I'd use the payment method you used before, because that always worked, and then chargeback the old payment that clearly didn't work. How are they going to side with Facebook when you've got all that documentation that they don't recognise that payment?

rohansingh 2y ago
I'm definitely considering it but trying to make sure we fully, thoroughly exhaust all other channels. Totally agree that it wouldn't be "reasonable" to permanently suspend our account for a chargeback in this scenario, but it's hard to know what's reasonable at this point. Sucks to say it but having to double-pay this invoice may still be a better scenario than having the business fully banned from Meta Ads.
- oneshtein 2y ago
  Pay again then chargeback previous payment. You have full right to chargeback extra money.
  - rohansingh 2y ago
    It's not possible to pay by credit card again — just get a generic error when trying to open the payment form. So it would have to be by wire transfer, for which there are no chargeback protections.
    - nocoiner 2y ago
      Right, but, pay by wire to settle what Meta thinks is outstanding, and then initiate the chargeback process. At least during the pendency of that process, you’ll have that wire transfer documentation that seems to be the only thing Meta can comprehend, and you can (hopefully, fingers crossed, get back up and running). I get that there’s a real risk here that you could wind up out another $40k at the end of the day and your problem still isn’t solved, but if losing access to the Meta market is as fundamental a risk to the business as I took away from the post, then it seems to me like job one is to ensure that the business survives and that the (admittedly unpleasant) process of getting trued-up on the $40k is exactly the kind of thing that your lawyer is for.
      - rohansingh 2y ago
        You're probably right. We can hopefully get back the money, but there's no getting back the lost revenue. Missed the wire cutoff for today but guess I know what I'll be doing tomorrow.

mat_epice 2y ago

Dispute the charge with Amex, like you probably should have done at first sign of trouble. You can do this even after paying the bill.

j45 2y ago
Undertaking a claim that there is no one you can speak to Facebook about this will help them quickly find someone to talk to you and respond to the credit card company and you.
- throwway120385 2y ago
  Yeah, disputing the charge might be better than a straight chargeback. The merchant gets to respond to the dispute and provide evidence, and if they clearly deny having issued the charge then it gets reversed and you can move on.
  - j45 2y ago
    Also playing hardball with a chargeback makes it almost but certain your entire account will get shut down. The goal is to get someone's attention because Facebook is so big.
- devoutsalsa 2y ago
  When standard channels aren't working, complain to someone who can do something about it. A couple of times in my life, I've had good luck contacting the office of Chairpman of the Board. I had problem with a debt collector of American Express, I was a financial delinquent in those days, and I contacted American Express directly. I asked for the Chairman of the Board's office, and talked to his assistant. I explained the situation about how I was being lied to by the debt collector, the assistant arranged to have the debt recalled to American Express, and I worked w/ Amex directly after that. Another time, also w/ Amex, my friend's consulting invoice wasn't being paid my Amex in a timely manner. I recommended she contact them using the same approach, and an assistant helped her get paid. More recently, I had a problem getting my tax return processed with the Internal Revenue Service. I complained to my Congressman, his office put me in touch with a tax advocate at the IRS, and everything was cleared up. This is the second time I needed to do this.

paulpauper 2y ago

This is totally unacceptable on the part of Meta. Hope you get it resolved.

rohansingh 2y ago
Thanks Paul, appreciate it. Still trying to reach out to anyone and everyone.

2muchcoffeeman 2y ago

I can’t believe how shoddy the CC payment is. And “the ad platform is known to be buggy”. Are you serious? I’m sure they hire only the best

rohansingh 2y ago
It's truly a bummer. I posted about this in a Meta alumni group, and here's a couple different responses that I received: > Same exact situation. Millions in spend. Jumped over to TikTok. > Nearly every time I interact with the ads products, I hit multiple bugs ...
- 2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
  How is this even possible? Billions of dollars and they can’t fix this? Hire me. I’ll fix it for 20 million.
  - lancesells 2y ago
    It's buggy and I use it enough to know a lot of the bugs. Lately though it's buggy when trying to publish new ads and updates to ads. It's super frustrating.
  - JeremyNT 2y ago
    If you can be so abusive to your customers and provide such a terrible experience and people still line up to do business with you it's a sure sign that you're basically a monopoly. If you have no serious competition you have no incentive to do better.

annoyingnoob 2y ago

I would file a lawsuit. Guaranteed that Meta will respond to a lawsuit. You've provided Meta with all the evidence they need and they refuse to acknowledge it. The courts will help them see things your way. Be sure to include your attorney's fees in the suit.

eadler 2y ago
What would be the cause of action? Which statute authorizes fee shifting for attorneys fees?
- sdwr 2y ago
  I'm no lawyer, but the 2 angles I see are failure to provide agreed services (that were paid for!), and double billing. Not having recourse for being deplatformed sucks, but for the rest, take the Internet out of the equation and it's a bog-standard contract dispute between companies, that the law is well-equipped to handle.
cynicalsecurity 2y ago
I'm surprised a company can behave like this in the first place and just ignore a customer they charged for 40K without registering it. It's extremely unprofessional.
delfinom 2y ago
You don't even need to file a lawsuit, a legal demand letter written by an attorney is cheap, they can attach the documentation and send it to Meta's legal. That will probably get their attention to get someone to clobber heads.
otterley 2y ago
A lawsuit is never the first action to take. Always send an email and physical mail to the company's general counsel first. Odds are it'll be dealt with straight away.
- Ekaros 2y ago

sneak 2y ago

Former internal employee can't even get backchannel help with Facebook's insanely customer-hostile purchasing process, has to resort to court of public opinion to (maybe) get resolution. What a great ad for Meta's regard for their customers. This company actively makes the world worse and anyone giving them a single dollar of revenue is participating in that. Follow Tesla's example and delete your Instagram and Facebook accounts. "We have to use it for our business" is a lie people tell themselves.

stevage 2y ago
Tesla is the extremely rare example of a business that is interesting enough that people write about them for free. They don't need to advertise.
- lancesells 2y ago
  I know they didn't in the past but they do now. I've seen ads on Youtube from them ever since my adblocker stopped working. Sadly the ads are just straight up stock automotive ads.
  - stevage 2y ago
    >Sadly the ads are just straight up stock automotive ads. I guess it makes sense - all the people who are excited about Tesla as a company don't need the ads. So, reaching people who just want to ... buy a car?
- sangnoir 2y ago
  *was. Tesla's keel the bottom of their demand pool a few quarters ago and are no longer selling evey car made. The 2 levers at their disposal to boost sales are price cuts and marketing (ads), and they've already started on the former...

stevage 2y ago

Honestly I think the best way to get this resolved is making a lot of noise. Eventually someone at FB in the right place notices and fixes it. So you're doing the right thing. Oh and a letter from a lawyer.

ipaddr 2y ago

You've paid facebook millions in the last few years. Another 37k is only a small % of that. Pay them another 37k and take it as a lesson learned not to use a credit card with them. Write off as loss. Or sue / chargeback and end your relationship with the platform. Either way it has become a marketing opportunity that is probably worth the 37k.

whydoineedthis 2y ago

I try once to resolve things...and then I just keep insisting they provide thier mailing address for my small claim suit. I say it kindly and matter of fact, not angrily. I talk about it as if it's just normal business for me. I might say 'I appreciate you trying to help, but I have spent 1 hr on this to no avail, it's just more time and cost efficient to file small claims suite. Judges have a way of getting to it quick. What is the business mailing address for legal correspondence?'. I wouldn't say it works like magic, but I can say it has worked several times.

frankus 2y ago

No idea if it helps with this sort of thing but one hack that patio11 recommends is to own a de minimus amount of stock in the company to have shareholder relations available as a channel for contacting someone who can fix things.

dtagames 2y ago

Stop giving FB $40k, or any money. You're only feeding the beast, which won't make it stop.

enos_feedler 2y ago

Meta took $50 from my paypal account because someone got into an ads portal and ran a campaign. Tried escalating with Paypal and no word from Meta. That $50 seems gone. Meta did lock down my ads account though. Can’t believe they won’t refund the transfer

bert2002 2y ago

Your product looks awesome!

theogravity 2y ago

CFBP? I know it's consumer finance, but might be worth a try. I've had success with the two cases I've filed in the past. Got my money back in both. https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/

rohansingh 2y ago

UPDATE (2024-03-26): A business development manager at Meta saw this post yesterday and escalated the issue internally. They provisionally unsuspended our account this morning. This afternoon, the collections team confirmed that they received our payment, and applied it to the account. Thanks to everyone for their advice and input. For what it's worth, we'll definitely maintain a presence on Meta, but our team is taking a second look at TikTok for marketing.

ivraatiems 2y ago
Glad to hear you got this figured out. Shame it required HN to act as your support hotline.
- rohansingh 2y ago
  Yeah... unfortunately it seems like "problem with major company, can't get support" has become an entire genre of HN post.
KomoD 2y ago
It's insane that this is what it takes to get it resolved.

hackburg 2y ago

[dead]