8 ms·

New York Times is targeting Wordle clones with DMCA takedowns

170 points by mryall 3y ago

mryall 3y ago
> In a statement to 404 Media, the Times said: > > The Times has no issue with individuals creating similar word games that do not infringe The Times’s “Wordle” trademarks or copyrighted gameplay. Can you really copyright “gameplay”? This seems like pointless bullying by the Times, who is probably just upset they haven’t got a positive ROI on their acquisition of a free game.
- standardly 3y ago
  Not sure why you're grayed out - no, you cannot copywrite gameplay. The name "Wordle" could be protected, though, which is probably the case here. In any case, Wordle is too damn easy. Don't think I've ever lost. I recommend sedecordle for word enjoyers
  - CannisterFlux 3y ago
    Yeah I stopped playing it pretty quickly. There was that not-wordle game where you had to not get the word. It made me realise just how tricky failing wordle was. I still do "where taken", which is photos of countries, tradle for oec trade commodities and guess the game for video games. They're all far more interesting than guessing some random word.
    - lastofthemojito 3y ago
      Perhaps that was Don't Wordle? That was eye-opening to me too. Play it before NYT sues it out of existence I guess: https://dontwordle.com https://dontwordle.com
      - CannisterFlux 3y ago
        Yeah that's the one.
      - standardly 3y ago
        Wow, that seems super hard but unusable on desktop for me. No native keyboard support? I could overlook that, but the letter reveal is extremely slow to load for me. Could be an issue on my end.
    - autoexec 3y ago
      Does it use the same wordlist as wordle or have they specifically chosen words that would be impossible to not get?
      - CannisterFlux 3y ago
        I don't know if it was the same list, but the words were possible to not get.
    - Fnoord 3y ago
      Here's a curated awesome-wordle list [1]. Back in the days (as if it is long ago) I used a different one and had quite some fun with some of the clones (I didn't check this specific one). [1] https://github.com/prakhar897/awesome-wordle https://github.com/prakhar897/awesome-wordle
      - extraduder_ire 3y ago
        This repo still being up shows they probably didn't just auto-takedown every repo that has the word "wordle" in its name at least. Often not the case with DMCA abuse.
  - lbourdages 3y ago
    Semantle is nice but very difficult. You have unlimited tries, though.
    - leereeves 3y ago
      Just tried Semantle, which I hadn't heard of before. I don't want to spoil today's puzzle, but after getting a few hints and giving up to get the answer, I don't see any relation between the hints and the answer. (The similarity scores are word2vec cosine similarity, and that's fun to see in action, but the results make me think word2vec isn't that good.) Edit: I tried yesterday's word and that was much better. Today's word might just be word2vec's kryptonite.
      - lbourdages 3y ago
        I haven't played a whole lot but sometimes it definitely makes more sense than others.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    Wordle is a trademark. That's not what the DMCA is for.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    They’re apparently also claiming that the offenders are using forked code, which would be subject to copyright.
- pgrote 3y ago
  Lingo seems like Wordle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC0kie6dPjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC0kie6dPjo Maybe the copyright is on the colors on the game field?
  - Kluggy 3y ago
    > The New York Times — which purchased Wordle back in 2022 — has filed several DMCA notices over Wordle clones created by GitHub coders, citing its ownership over the Wordle name and copyrighted gameplay including 5x6 tile layout and gray, yellow, and green color scheme.
    - Verdex 3y ago
      This smells very similar to the issue with the tetris clone a number of years ago. The overall issue is that while games aren't copyrightable, the look and feel of a game can be copyrighted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_Holding,_LLC_v._Xio_Interactive,_Inc.#Legal_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_Holding,_LLC_v._Xio_Int...
      - ben0x539 3y ago
        That ruling is really exasperating. The judge not accepting that the size of the tetris field is part of the rules of tetris is really weird to me. The tetronimoes don't even look similar in their comparison given the constraints of shapes made of four blocks, and, like, the texture obviously looks nothing like original tetris, it's just some basic-ass rendering of a shape with some color.
- interestica 3y ago
  Games and Other Uncopyrightable Systems Bruce E. Boyden https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=facpub https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar...
- c3534l 3y ago
  Especially considering wordle has no unique gameplay. Its a very, very old game with a million variations. There was even a TV show called lingo or something that did competetive wordle. The only thing NYT owns is a brand since the game is hundreds of years old.
  - leereeves 3y ago
    Yeah, Wordle is clearly a copy of Lingo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingo_(American_game_show)#/media/File:Lingopuzzle.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingo_(American_game_show)#/me...
  - Fnoord 3y ago
    > Amusingly, Wordle has itself been criticized over striking similarities it shares with Lingo, a 1980s game show that centered on players guessing five-letter words, with a grid that changes color based on accuracy. Indeed. I know this from TV, grew up with it. Was a fun educative program back in the days.
    - lacoolj 3y ago
      Pretty sure there's a new reboot of this show right now too
  - JadeNB 3y ago
    Siblings have mentioned the TV game show Lingo. I can't precisely date Bulls and cows (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulls_and_cows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulls_and_cows), but it's hard to imagine that it (the gameplay, if not that particular pen-and-paper game) isn't much older than television, hence than Lingo.
    - lupire 3y ago
      And Jotto, 1955
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  When you have the kind of connections the NYT does and the lawyers to go along with it, sure!
- phire 3y ago
  Gameplay can't be copyrighted, but in the case of Worldle, the word lists are probably copyrightable. Any clone that derives their own word list is probably fine, but any clone that copy/pastes the exact word lists from wordle (especially the shorter list of 2,315 possible solutions) is probably infringing copyright.
  - torstenvl 3y ago
    I doubt it. The existence of the words themselves is a fact, which is not copyrightable. Only their arrangement can be. Feist Publications, Inc., v. Rural Telephone Service Co., 499 U.S. 340 (1991) However, to be copyrightable, the arrangement has to be expressive, i.e., it must "possess the requisite originality because the author . . . chooses . . . in what order to place them." My strong suspicion is that Wordle's word list is randomized. Not a chosen expression of the author.
    - lupire 3y ago
      The selection is expressive. https://www.copyright.gov/comp3/chap300/ch300-copyrightable-authorship.pdf https://www.copyright.gov/comp3/chap300/ch300-copyrightable-... The Originality Requirement for Compilations A compilation may contain several distinct forms of authorship: • Selection authorship involved in choosing the material or data that will be included in the compilation; • Coordination authorship involved in classifying, categorizing, ordering, or grouping the material or data; and/or • Arrangement authorship involved in organizing or moving the order, position, or placement of material or data within the compilation as a whole
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - phire 3y ago
        Indeed. The creator of wordle started with a reasonably exhaustive list of ~13000 five letter words. That list won't be copyrightable. But the first prototype wasn't so fun, because it would often pick a word the player didn't even know existed. So the creator (and his partner) manually classified the entire list based on if they knew the word or not; splitting the list into two groups, words which might appear as solutions and words that won't appear as solutions but will still be accepted. This manual classification step and splitting it into two groups makes a very good argument for the wordlists meeting the criteria for copyright. Source: https://slate.com/culture/2022/01/wordle-game-creator-wardle-twitter-scores-strategy-stats.html https://slate.com/culture/2022/01/wordle-game-creator-wardle...
- archontes 3y ago
  You cannot copyright gameplay. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/intellectual_property_law/publications/landslide/2014-15/march-april/its_how_you_play_game_why_videogame_rules_are_not_expression_protected_copyright_law/#:~:text=In%20the%20context%20of%20games,a%20game%20are%20not%20copyrightable https://www.americanbar.org/groups/intellectual_property_law....
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - reactordev 3y ago
    but you can patent it.
    - karaterobot 3y ago
      > The publication has filed several DMCA copyright requests
    - lacoolj 3y ago
      If this is true, why wouldn't Microsoft patent the taskbar or directory structure tree layout pattern in Explorer? I don't think you would be granted a design (let alone utility) patent that is as broad as "green and yellow blocks have significance, is a grid of 5x6, and has a keyboard below". Not a lawyer though so what do I know
      - helloworld 3y ago
        Microsoft did patent the taskbar. [1] [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US5920316A/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US5920316A/en
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - AlbertCory 3y ago
      No you can't.
- dabernathy89 3y ago
  You can patent game mechanics - famous example would be Legend of Zelda's targeting system. Apparently Nintendo is extremely aggressive about patenting game mechanics. https://kotaku.com/nintendo-is-trying-to-patent-some-really-broad-tears-of-1850730637 https://kotaku.com/nintendo-is-trying-to-patent-some-really-...
  - tomkarho 3y ago
    Another example that comes to mind is the Nemesis system from Mordor games
  - torstenvl 3y ago
    Irrelevant, since NYT does not and can never (due to prior art) hold a patent on Wordle's gameplay. This is about copyright.
  - deprecative 3y ago
    Nintendo is a litigation company pretending to be a game developer.
- dougb5 3y ago
  I can't prove it, but I am quite sure NYT got a positive ROI on the acquisition of Wordle. They paid in the low single millions of USD, which isn't much for a brand as big as Wordle had become by then (2 million+ daily players) and it's been used to drive new digital subscriptions [1]. It's diminished somewhat since then but it has remarkable staying power. I can tell that from the Google Trends data [2] as well as the anecdata that I and so many of my friends and family still play Wordle every day. [1] https://www.afr.com/technology/why-on-earth-did-the-new-york-times-buy-free-puzzle-game-wordle-20220311-p5a411 https://www.afr.com/technology/why-on-earth-did-the-new-york... [2] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=wordle&hl=en https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge... [Edit: And, nearly two years on, they say they get "millions" of players per day, and they've assigned a dedicated Wordle editor and write articles about the game frequently. (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/17/upshot/wordle-bot-year-in-review.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/17/upshot/wordle-bot-year-in...). They're definitely not having buyer's regret.]
  - user_7832 3y ago
    You can look at the comments section to see how popular it is, oftentimes there are a few hundred comments. That is higher than most NYT news stories (back when I used to use their website).
    - slyall 3y ago
      The Website has stats on the number who play each game (and their moves). March 7 - Wordle 992 - 1,748,583 players March 8 - Wordle 993 - 1,749,500 players To get these go to: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/upshot/wordle-bot.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/upshot/wordle-bot.h... then "Compare and review recent scores" -> Next page -> on on the "Your Recent scores" select "view analysis" against the game number -> Next page Doesn't seem to work with anonymous browser unfortunately.
      - david422 3y ago
        That is ... amazingly consistent.
- autoexec 3y ago
  Maybe you can't copyright gameplay, but you can still sue someone for infringement anyway, or even just threaten people with lawsuits that you know they can't afford to defend themselves against so they'll do whatever you want no matter what their rights are. The Times might even win in the courts if it ever gets that far. You can't copyright a musical genre either but that hasn't stopped successful lawsuits against musicians for exactly that (https://abovethelaw.com/2018/03/blurred-lines-can-you-copy-a-music-genre/ https://abovethelaw.com/2018/03/blurred-lines-can-you-copy-a...).
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    Suing when your case has no merit is a losing strategy. Eventually you not only lose to someone who stands up to your bullying, you face massive damage to your reputation; something media companies really don't like.
- hiccuphippo 3y ago
  Specially since Wordle's gameplay is a straight copy of Bulls and Cows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulls_and_cows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulls_and_cows
  - pests 3y ago
    Except wordle provides positional information.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  This is either confusingly written, or what the NYT said is confusing. The article refers to the source code being forked. That would be copyrightable. But I wouldn’t refer to the source code as “gameplay”.
racingmars 3y ago
This feels like a trademark question, not a copyright question. Seems like an abuse of DMCA; if only it were easier to ensure companies filing fraudulent DMCA claims end up facing real consequences.
marssaxman 3y ago
Well, that just makes me want to stop playing Wordle.
a1o 3y ago
Mechanics can't be copyrighted (unless it's MTG tap mechanic, it seems), but what is weird is apparently the projects it went against were in different languages that Wordle doesn't cover (which I think matters considering Wordle is about guessing words) and using a different name.
- jkaplowitz 3y ago
  Lots of other games have the same mechanic as MTG’s tapping. But to avoid legal threats from WotC/Hasbro, most of them call it exhausting or refreshing or other similar words. I’m skeptical that there’s any valid legal claim there, but if it is more legitimate than well-funded big-corp lawyer bullying, it’s either a trademark claim or a claim that any game with a card-refresh mechanic called “tapping” must be a derivative work of MTG for copyright purposes.
  - mynameisnoone 3y ago
    Fuck the "owning" of terminology laying claim to individual words. It's utter horseshit.
    - jkaplowitz 3y ago
      I agree that the claim to “tapping” is likely legal bullshit that’s only practically effective because nobody who would want to fight Hasbro over it can afford to do so. But trademark claims over individual words in specific covered contexts are a reasonable consumer protection measure, even if the “tapping” thing isn’t legitimately in that scope. It’s completely reasonable that, in most countries worldwide, I can’t legally produce a new laptop today and commercially market it as an Apple computer without permission from Apple Inc.
- trothamel 3y ago
  The MTG tap mechanic was patented, not copyrighted. https://patents.google.com/patent/US5662332A/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US5662332A/en , claims 4, 5, and 6 - expired in 2014. The actual symbol is also a copyright and trademark, I believe, but right now other games can us the 90 degree rotation. (Disney's Lorcana, for example, uses 90 degree rotation and calls it 'exerting' a card.)
kepler1 3y ago
A company wants to enforce its copyright, etc., fine. That's their right to do so. Although I beg to differ with our copyright laws. No, what I find objectionable about the NYT games team, such as their spelling bee puzzle, is that they selectively deem certain words not valid responses. Not curse words or words with no redeeming value, but words that are perceived to be derogatory against disadvantaged groups or "offensive". It's like an extension of the hyper sensitive liberal newsroom. Fine, it's a private organization and their choice. But it reflects in my mind a hijacking of the language by people oversensitized to the point of ridiculousness.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- quink 3y ago
  > words that are perceived to be derogatory against disadvantaged groups The _game_ won't accept responses of such a nature? That doesn't sound too bad.
- jmull 3y ago
  Oh, come on. These word games are for casual fun and enjoyment. It's really not a big deal whether a particular word is included or not in the dictionary for a particular game. For Spelling Bee, the levels appear to be calculated based on the word list, so while it may be a little frustrating that a particular real (albeit off-colored, so to speak) word isn't accepted, rest assured that that doesn't doesn't affect the puzzle's difficulty. So no harm done. IMO, if some particular word removes more fun than it adds, good riddance. Personally, I was most offended when "ichor" was not accepted, though I'm happy to say their reporting mechanism seemed to work, because it seems to be accepted now at least in the pangram game.
- add-sub-mul-div 3y ago
  Good thing you're not sensitive.
dang 3y ago
Recent and related: NY Times issues DMCA takedowns of Wordle clones - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618193 - March 2024 (44 comments)
fieryscribe 3y ago
It's interesting to see them go after others for copying gameplay when they have done exactly the same: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/jun/15/connections-new-york-times-puzzle-only-connect-victoria-coren-mitchell https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/jun/15/connections-ne...
anthk 3y ago
Lingo predates Wordle and I remember that show in my country more than 30 years ago.
deleted 3y ago
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onemoresoop 3y ago
Does anyone know if anything like https://www.threemagicwords.app/ https://www.threemagicwords.app/ is going to receive a DMCA takedown? It is somewhat similar to Wordle and yet quite different.
anthk 3y ago
This is just Mastermind with words. I remember word puzzles like that in several newspapers and magazines across the world for -decades-. In Spanish media it was usually called "Deducción". Link in Spanish as proof: http://pasatiemposmatematicosdelaprensa.blogspot.com/2013/10/pmp-deduccion-de-la-palabra-buscada.html http://pasatiemposmatematicosdelaprensa.blogspot.com/2013/10... The last puzzle it's from 1999.
ashton314 3y ago
If someone makes a FOSS version that can be easily dropped onto a public server somewhere, then we should all host a Wordle clone. (I'm sure the code has already been written a thousand times over…)
- extraduder_ire 3y ago
  Almost all of these clones are FOSS, and can be dropped onto a server somewhere. Hell, the most common way to implement the game has everything on single html page with a javascript file that handles the entire game's logic and word list.
crtified 3y ago
The asset NYT bought when they bought Wordle, was to have their name indelibly associated with a trend that is more popular than they themselves are. It is simply "our name in your face, on a regular basis, for years" advertising, at a global scale. Case in point : here we all are, thinking and talking about the NYT. That is the ROI.
- autoexec 3y ago
  Yeah, but we're all just thinking about what a dick they are. Does that really count?
  - umeshunni 3y ago
    All publicity is good publicity
    - willis936 3y ago
      That was dubious in the 20th century and is certainly wrong in the internet era 21st century.
    - suddenclarity 3y ago
      As shown by Bud Light sales plummeting after them getting more publicity than they probably ever had?
kbf 3y ago
If you’re looking for a Wordle game they can’t take from you, Wordyl on Game Boy is one I’ve been enjoying :) https://bbbbbr.itch.io/gb-wordyl https://bbbbbr.itch.io/gb-wordyl
- wackget 3y ago
  Why wouldn't they allow keyboard input to type the words? Nobody has time to select each individual letter with the up/down arrows. I get it's an emulated game but there must be a way to hook keyboard input.
  - brokensegue 3y ago
    ??? it's a gameboy game. gameboy had no keyboard
    - iamevn 3y ago
      I wonder how feasible it would be to get a keyboard hooked up to a Gameboy through the serial port. It looks like it should be possible from a cursory reading of https://gbdev.io/pandocs/Serial_Data_Transfer_(Link_Cable).html https://gbdev.io/pandocs/Serial_Data_Transfer_(Link_Cable).h...
      - throwawayx921 3y ago
        Certainly possible and probably not too hard, there are code examples from the late 90's and early 2000's for using ps2 keyboards. But not enough people have the keyboard link port adapter to make it worth implementing.
  - throwawayx921 3y ago
    As the other person who replied said, it's a game meant to run on the Game Boy which has no keyboard. The intended use case is not in a JS web emulator, that is just a way for people to preview it before downloading. You can also see in the downloads there IS support for the game boy clone megaduck laptop that has a keyboard, if you have one of those.
helsinkiandrew 3y ago
It’s interesting that they seem fine with blatently copying part of the BBC game show Only Connect for their Connections game: https://www.reddit.com/r/onlyconnect/comments/169j2p4/have_you_seen_nyts_connections/ https://www.reddit.com/r/onlyconnect/comments/169j2p4/have_y...
- gnicholas 3y ago
  They also get their knickers in a twist when employees leak internal documents to other news organizations...despite the fact that they make extensive use of others' leaks themselves: https://www.npr.org/2024/03/03/1235606433/an-investigation-into-a-new-york-times-story-is-causing-internal-chaos-at-the-co https://www.npr.org/2024/03/03/1235606433/an-investigation-i...
camdenlock 3y ago
In the end, everyone’s just becoming a game company. Er, sorry; an “experience” company.
visarga 3y ago
Are NYT still writing news, or just copyright trolling?
ok123456 3y ago
Doesn't the name "Wordle" and the rules for the game come from an article in Creative Computing in the 70s?
- ath0 3y ago
  The name is a play on the author's last name (Josh Wardle): https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/03/technology/wordle-word-game-creator.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/03/technology/wordle-word-ga...
deleted 3y ago
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MisterBastahrd 3y ago
Worldle is just hangman with hints.
wly_cdgr 3y ago
GTFO NYT lol it is well established that gameplay mechanics are not subject to copyright. The level of presumption and disrespect and ignorance about the culture is pretty par for the course for the goons running the NYT.
gnicholas 3y ago
> citing its ownership over the Wordle name and copyrighted gameplay including 5x6 tile layout and gray, yellow, and green color scheme. So this is referring to trademark (the name Wordle) and copyright — but not patent. It makes sense to go after people who are using the same actual name, since this clearly infringes the trademark, and because if you do not enforce ("police") your mark against minor players, you can end up losing the ability to enforce it against major players. But the copyright bit is a bit novel from my perspective (lawyer, but not copyright lawyer). If you had asked me what a copyright claim about Wordle would be about, I would have said the precise code. I might have wondered about the specific word lists, even though these would probably fail the "phone book" test (don't remember the case, but these were deemed uncopyrightable). I never would have thought about the tile layout and color scheme. That seems more like what I think of as "trade dress" [1] or perhaps something related to patent (which wouldn't apply here, unless the original Wordle owner had filed for patents a long time ago. Are there any copyright lawyers who can elucidate how the tile layout and color scheme might be subject to copyright law? I assume the NYT has good lawyers, and has thought long and hard before going after folks on github... 1: https://www.inta.org/topics/trade-dress https://www.inta.org/topics/trade-dress
mig39 3y ago
No problem with the New York Times ripping off Only Connect though. https://web.archive.org/web/20230709023951/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/new-york-times-new-puzzle-only-connect/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230709023951/https://www.teleg...
- mynameisnoone 3y ago
  The rules apply to me but not to thee because some animals are more equal than others.
deleted 3y ago
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fddrdplktrew 3y ago
DMCA itself should be illegal
brikym 3y ago
Hey NYT I hope you’ll enjoy my game called QWERTL https://qwertl.com https://qwertl.com Or my other game https://redactle.net https://redactle.net which sounds ever so similar to wordle so you had better send your lawyers. Or what about https://memorycardsgame.com https://memorycardsgame.com - I mean it has a grid layout so surely that must be copyrighted too. I will file any complaints into my computers /dev/null disk.
mynameisnoone 3y ago
"The [self-congratulatory] paper of record" behaves as an arrogant, evil megacorp. Is this news? (Pun intended)

170 points by mryall 3y ago

> In a statement to 404 Media, the Times said: > > The Times has no issue with individuals creating similar word games that do not infringe The Times’s “Wordle” trademarks or copyrighted gameplay. Can you really copyright “gameplay”? This seems like pointless bullying by the Times, who is probably just upset they haven’t got a positive ROI on their acquisition of a free game.

standardly 3y ago
Not sure why you're grayed out - no, you cannot copywrite gameplay. The name "Wordle" could be protected, though, which is probably the case here. In any case, Wordle is too damn easy. Don't think I've ever lost. I recommend sedecordle for word enjoyers
- CannisterFlux 3y ago
  Yeah I stopped playing it pretty quickly. There was that not-wordle game where you had to not get the word. It made me realise just how tricky failing wordle was. I still do "where taken", which is photos of countries, tradle for oec trade commodities and guess the game for video games. They're all far more interesting than guessing some random word.
  - lastofthemojito 3y ago
    Perhaps that was Don't Wordle? That was eye-opening to me too. Play it before NYT sues it out of existence I guess: https://dontwordle.com https://dontwordle.com
    - CannisterFlux 3y ago
      Yeah that's the one.
    - standardly 3y ago
      Wow, that seems super hard but unusable on desktop for me. No native keyboard support? I could overlook that, but the letter reveal is extremely slow to load for me. Could be an issue on my end.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    Does it use the same wordlist as wordle or have they specifically chosen words that would be impossible to not get?
    - CannisterFlux 3y ago
      I don't know if it was the same list, but the words were possible to not get.
  - Fnoord 3y ago
    Here's a curated awesome-wordle list [1]. Back in the days (as if it is long ago) I used a different one and had quite some fun with some of the clones (I didn't check this specific one). [1] https://github.com/prakhar897/awesome-wordle https://github.com/prakhar897/awesome-wordle
    - extraduder_ire 3y ago
      This repo still being up shows they probably didn't just auto-takedown every repo that has the word "wordle" in its name at least. Often not the case with DMCA abuse.
- lbourdages 3y ago
  Semantle is nice but very difficult. You have unlimited tries, though.
  - leereeves 3y ago
    Just tried Semantle, which I hadn't heard of before. I don't want to spoil today's puzzle, but after getting a few hints and giving up to get the answer, I don't see any relation between the hints and the answer. (The similarity scores are word2vec cosine similarity, and that's fun to see in action, but the results make me think word2vec isn't that good.) Edit: I tried yesterday's word and that was much better. Today's word might just be word2vec's kryptonite.
    - lbourdages 3y ago
      I haven't played a whole lot but sometimes it definitely makes more sense than others.
- kelnos 3y ago
  Wordle is a trademark. That's not what the DMCA is for.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  They’re apparently also claiming that the offenders are using forked code, which would be subject to copyright.
pgrote 3y ago
Lingo seems like Wordle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC0kie6dPjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC0kie6dPjo Maybe the copyright is on the colors on the game field?
- Kluggy 3y ago
  > The New York Times — which purchased Wordle back in 2022 — has filed several DMCA notices over Wordle clones created by GitHub coders, citing its ownership over the Wordle name and copyrighted gameplay including 5x6 tile layout and gray, yellow, and green color scheme.
  - Verdex 3y ago
    This smells very similar to the issue with the tetris clone a number of years ago. The overall issue is that while games aren't copyrightable, the look and feel of a game can be copyrighted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_Holding,_LLC_v._Xio_Interactive,_Inc.#Legal_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_Holding,_LLC_v._Xio_Int...
    - ben0x539 3y ago
      That ruling is really exasperating. The judge not accepting that the size of the tetris field is part of the rules of tetris is really weird to me. The tetronimoes don't even look similar in their comparison given the constraints of shapes made of four blocks, and, like, the texture obviously looks nothing like original tetris, it's just some basic-ass rendering of a shape with some color.
interestica 3y ago
Games and Other Uncopyrightable Systems Bruce E. Boyden https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=facpub https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar...
c3534l 3y ago
Especially considering wordle has no unique gameplay. Its a very, very old game with a million variations. There was even a TV show called lingo or something that did competetive wordle. The only thing NYT owns is a brand since the game is hundreds of years old.
- leereeves 3y ago
  Yeah, Wordle is clearly a copy of Lingo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingo_(American_game_show)#/media/File:Lingopuzzle.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingo_(American_game_show)#/me...
- Fnoord 3y ago
  > Amusingly, Wordle has itself been criticized over striking similarities it shares with Lingo, a 1980s game show that centered on players guessing five-letter words, with a grid that changes color based on accuracy. Indeed. I know this from TV, grew up with it. Was a fun educative program back in the days.
  - lacoolj 3y ago
    Pretty sure there's a new reboot of this show right now too
- JadeNB 3y ago
  Siblings have mentioned the TV game show Lingo. I can't precisely date Bulls and cows (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulls_and_cows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulls_and_cows), but it's hard to imagine that it (the gameplay, if not that particular pen-and-paper game) isn't much older than television, hence than Lingo.
  - lupire 3y ago
    And Jotto, 1955
sidewndr46 3y ago
When you have the kind of connections the NYT does and the lawyers to go along with it, sure!
phire 3y ago
Gameplay can't be copyrighted, but in the case of Worldle, the word lists are probably copyrightable. Any clone that derives their own word list is probably fine, but any clone that copy/pastes the exact word lists from wordle (especially the shorter list of 2,315 possible solutions) is probably infringing copyright.
- torstenvl 3y ago
  I doubt it. The existence of the words themselves is a fact, which is not copyrightable. Only their arrangement can be. Feist Publications, Inc., v. Rural Telephone Service Co., 499 U.S. 340 (1991) However, to be copyrightable, the arrangement has to be expressive, i.e., it must "possess the requisite originality because the author . . . chooses . . . in what order to place them." My strong suspicion is that Wordle's word list is randomized. Not a chosen expression of the author.
  - lupire 3y ago
    The selection is expressive. https://www.copyright.gov/comp3/chap300/ch300-copyrightable-authorship.pdf https://www.copyright.gov/comp3/chap300/ch300-copyrightable-... The Originality Requirement for Compilations A compilation may contain several distinct forms of authorship: • Selection authorship involved in choosing the material or data that will be included in the compilation; • Coordination authorship involved in classifying, categorizing, ordering, or grouping the material or data; and/or • Arrangement authorship involved in organizing or moving the order, position, or placement of material or data within the compilation as a whole
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - phire 3y ago
      Indeed. The creator of wordle started with a reasonably exhaustive list of ~13000 five letter words. That list won't be copyrightable. But the first prototype wasn't so fun, because it would often pick a word the player didn't even know existed. So the creator (and his partner) manually classified the entire list based on if they knew the word or not; splitting the list into two groups, words which might appear as solutions and words that won't appear as solutions but will still be accepted. This manual classification step and splitting it into two groups makes a very good argument for the wordlists meeting the criteria for copyright. Source: https://slate.com/culture/2022/01/wordle-game-creator-wardle-twitter-scores-strategy-stats.html https://slate.com/culture/2022/01/wordle-game-creator-wardle...
archontes 3y ago
You cannot copyright gameplay. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/intellectual_property_law/publications/landslide/2014-15/march-april/its_how_you_play_game_why_videogame_rules_are_not_expression_protected_copyright_law/#:~:text=In%20the%20context%20of%20games,a%20game%20are%20not%20copyrightable https://www.americanbar.org/groups/intellectual_property_law....
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- reactordev 3y ago
  but you can patent it.
  - karaterobot 3y ago
    > The publication has filed several DMCA copyright requests
  - lacoolj 3y ago
    If this is true, why wouldn't Microsoft patent the taskbar or directory structure tree layout pattern in Explorer? I don't think you would be granted a design (let alone utility) patent that is as broad as "green and yellow blocks have significance, is a grid of 5x6, and has a keyboard below". Not a lawyer though so what do I know
    - helloworld 3y ago
      Microsoft did patent the taskbar. [1] [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US5920316A/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US5920316A/en
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    No you can't.
dabernathy89 3y ago
You can patent game mechanics - famous example would be Legend of Zelda's targeting system. Apparently Nintendo is extremely aggressive about patenting game mechanics. https://kotaku.com/nintendo-is-trying-to-patent-some-really-broad-tears-of-1850730637 https://kotaku.com/nintendo-is-trying-to-patent-some-really-...
- tomkarho 3y ago
  Another example that comes to mind is the Nemesis system from Mordor games
- torstenvl 3y ago
  Irrelevant, since NYT does not and can never (due to prior art) hold a patent on Wordle's gameplay. This is about copyright.
- deprecative 3y ago
  Nintendo is a litigation company pretending to be a game developer.
dougb5 3y ago
I can't prove it, but I am quite sure NYT got a positive ROI on the acquisition of Wordle. They paid in the low single millions of USD, which isn't much for a brand as big as Wordle had become by then (2 million+ daily players) and it's been used to drive new digital subscriptions [1]. It's diminished somewhat since then but it has remarkable staying power. I can tell that from the Google Trends data [2] as well as the anecdata that I and so many of my friends and family still play Wordle every day. [1] https://www.afr.com/technology/why-on-earth-did-the-new-york-times-buy-free-puzzle-game-wordle-20220311-p5a411 https://www.afr.com/technology/why-on-earth-did-the-new-york... [2] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=wordle&hl=en https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge... [Edit: And, nearly two years on, they say they get "millions" of players per day, and they've assigned a dedicated Wordle editor and write articles about the game frequently. (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/17/upshot/wordle-bot-year-in-review.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/17/upshot/wordle-bot-year-in...). They're definitely not having buyer's regret.]
- user_7832 3y ago
  You can look at the comments section to see how popular it is, oftentimes there are a few hundred comments. That is higher than most NYT news stories (back when I used to use their website).
  - slyall 3y ago
    The Website has stats on the number who play each game (and their moves). March 7 - Wordle 992 - 1,748,583 players March 8 - Wordle 993 - 1,749,500 players To get these go to: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/upshot/wordle-bot.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/upshot/wordle-bot.h... then "Compare and review recent scores" -> Next page -> on on the "Your Recent scores" select "view analysis" against the game number -> Next page Doesn't seem to work with anonymous browser unfortunately.
    - david422 3y ago
      That is ... amazingly consistent.
autoexec 3y ago
Maybe you can't copyright gameplay, but you can still sue someone for infringement anyway, or even just threaten people with lawsuits that you know they can't afford to defend themselves against so they'll do whatever you want no matter what their rights are. The Times might even win in the courts if it ever gets that far. You can't copyright a musical genre either but that hasn't stopped successful lawsuits against musicians for exactly that (https://abovethelaw.com/2018/03/blurred-lines-can-you-copy-a-music-genre/ https://abovethelaw.com/2018/03/blurred-lines-can-you-copy-a...).
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  Suing when your case has no merit is a losing strategy. Eventually you not only lose to someone who stands up to your bullying, you face massive damage to your reputation; something media companies really don't like.
hiccuphippo 3y ago
Specially since Wordle's gameplay is a straight copy of Bulls and Cows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulls_and_cows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulls_and_cows
- pests 3y ago
  Except wordle provides positional information.
gnicholas 3y ago
This is either confusingly written, or what the NYT said is confusing. The article refers to the source code being forked. That would be copyrightable. But I wouldn’t refer to the source code as “gameplay”.

racingmars 3y ago

This feels like a trademark question, not a copyright question. Seems like an abuse of DMCA; if only it were easier to ensure companies filing fraudulent DMCA claims end up facing real consequences.

marssaxman 3y ago

Well, that just makes me want to stop playing Wordle.

a1o 3y ago

Mechanics can't be copyrighted (unless it's MTG tap mechanic, it seems), but what is weird is apparently the projects it went against were in different languages that Wordle doesn't cover (which I think matters considering Wordle is about guessing words) and using a different name.

jkaplowitz 3y ago
Lots of other games have the same mechanic as MTG’s tapping. But to avoid legal threats from WotC/Hasbro, most of them call it exhausting or refreshing or other similar words. I’m skeptical that there’s any valid legal claim there, but if it is more legitimate than well-funded big-corp lawyer bullying, it’s either a trademark claim or a claim that any game with a card-refresh mechanic called “tapping” must be a derivative work of MTG for copyright purposes.
- mynameisnoone 3y ago
  Fuck the "owning" of terminology laying claim to individual words. It's utter horseshit.
  - jkaplowitz 3y ago
    I agree that the claim to “tapping” is likely legal bullshit that’s only practically effective because nobody who would want to fight Hasbro over it can afford to do so. But trademark claims over individual words in specific covered contexts are a reasonable consumer protection measure, even if the “tapping” thing isn’t legitimately in that scope. It’s completely reasonable that, in most countries worldwide, I can’t legally produce a new laptop today and commercially market it as an Apple computer without permission from Apple Inc.
trothamel 3y ago
The MTG tap mechanic was patented, not copyrighted. https://patents.google.com/patent/US5662332A/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US5662332A/en , claims 4, 5, and 6 - expired in 2014. The actual symbol is also a copyright and trademark, I believe, but right now other games can us the 90 degree rotation. (Disney's Lorcana, for example, uses 90 degree rotation and calls it 'exerting' a card.)

kepler1 3y ago

A company wants to enforce its copyright, etc., fine. That's their right to do so. Although I beg to differ with our copyright laws. No, what I find objectionable about the NYT games team, such as their spelling bee puzzle, is that they selectively deem certain words not valid responses. Not curse words or words with no redeeming value, but words that are perceived to be derogatory against disadvantaged groups or "offensive". It's like an extension of the hyper sensitive liberal newsroom. Fine, it's a private organization and their choice. But it reflects in my mind a hijacking of the language by people oversensitized to the point of ridiculousness.

deleted 3y ago
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quink 3y ago
> words that are perceived to be derogatory against disadvantaged groups The _game_ won't accept responses of such a nature? That doesn't sound too bad.
jmull 3y ago
Oh, come on. These word games are for casual fun and enjoyment. It's really not a big deal whether a particular word is included or not in the dictionary for a particular game. For Spelling Bee, the levels appear to be calculated based on the word list, so while it may be a little frustrating that a particular real (albeit off-colored, so to speak) word isn't accepted, rest assured that that doesn't doesn't affect the puzzle's difficulty. So no harm done. IMO, if some particular word removes more fun than it adds, good riddance. Personally, I was most offended when "ichor" was not accepted, though I'm happy to say their reporting mechanism seemed to work, because it seems to be accepted now at least in the pangram game.
add-sub-mul-div 3y ago
Good thing you're not sensitive.

dang 3y ago

Recent and related: NY Times issues DMCA takedowns of Wordle clones - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618193 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618193 - March 2024 (44 comments)

fieryscribe 3y ago

It's interesting to see them go after others for copying gameplay when they have done exactly the same: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/jun/15/connections-new-york-times-puzzle-only-connect-victoria-coren-mitchell https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/jun/15/connections-ne...

anthk 3y ago

Lingo predates Wordle and I remember that show in my country more than 30 years ago.

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onemoresoop 3y ago

Does anyone know if anything like https://www.threemagicwords.app/ https://www.threemagicwords.app/ is going to receive a DMCA takedown? It is somewhat similar to Wordle and yet quite different.

anthk 3y ago

This is just Mastermind with words. I remember word puzzles like that in several newspapers and magazines across the world for -decades-. In Spanish media it was usually called "Deducción". Link in Spanish as proof: http://pasatiemposmatematicosdelaprensa.blogspot.com/2013/10/pmp-deduccion-de-la-palabra-buscada.html http://pasatiemposmatematicosdelaprensa.blogspot.com/2013/10... The last puzzle it's from 1999.

ashton314 3y ago

If someone makes a FOSS version that can be easily dropped onto a public server somewhere, then we should all host a Wordle clone. (I'm sure the code has already been written a thousand times over…)

extraduder_ire 3y ago
Almost all of these clones are FOSS, and can be dropped onto a server somewhere. Hell, the most common way to implement the game has everything on single html page with a javascript file that handles the entire game's logic and word list.

crtified 3y ago

The asset NYT bought when they bought Wordle, was to have their name indelibly associated with a trend that is more popular than they themselves are. It is simply "our name in your face, on a regular basis, for years" advertising, at a global scale. Case in point : here we all are, thinking and talking about the NYT. That is the ROI.

autoexec 3y ago
Yeah, but we're all just thinking about what a dick they are. Does that really count?
- umeshunni 3y ago
  All publicity is good publicity
  - willis936 3y ago
    That was dubious in the 20th century and is certainly wrong in the internet era 21st century.
  - suddenclarity 3y ago
    As shown by Bud Light sales plummeting after them getting more publicity than they probably ever had?

kbf 3y ago

If you’re looking for a Wordle game they can’t take from you, Wordyl on Game Boy is one I’ve been enjoying :) https://bbbbbr.itch.io/gb-wordyl https://bbbbbr.itch.io/gb-wordyl

wackget 3y ago
Why wouldn't they allow keyboard input to type the words? Nobody has time to select each individual letter with the up/down arrows. I get it's an emulated game but there must be a way to hook keyboard input.
- brokensegue 3y ago
  ??? it's a gameboy game. gameboy had no keyboard
  - iamevn 3y ago
    I wonder how feasible it would be to get a keyboard hooked up to a Gameboy through the serial port. It looks like it should be possible from a cursory reading of https://gbdev.io/pandocs/Serial_Data_Transfer_(Link_Cable).html https://gbdev.io/pandocs/Serial_Data_Transfer_(Link_Cable).h...
    - throwawayx921 3y ago
      Certainly possible and probably not too hard, there are code examples from the late 90's and early 2000's for using ps2 keyboards. But not enough people have the keyboard link port adapter to make it worth implementing.
- throwawayx921 3y ago
  As the other person who replied said, it's a game meant to run on the Game Boy which has no keyboard. The intended use case is not in a JS web emulator, that is just a way for people to preview it before downloading. You can also see in the downloads there IS support for the game boy clone megaduck laptop that has a keyboard, if you have one of those.

helsinkiandrew 3y ago

It’s interesting that they seem fine with blatently copying part of the BBC game show Only Connect for their Connections game: https://www.reddit.com/r/onlyconnect/comments/169j2p4/have_you_seen_nyts_connections/ https://www.reddit.com/r/onlyconnect/comments/169j2p4/have_y...

gnicholas 3y ago
They also get their knickers in a twist when employees leak internal documents to other news organizations...despite the fact that they make extensive use of others' leaks themselves: https://www.npr.org/2024/03/03/1235606433/an-investigation-into-a-new-york-times-story-is-causing-internal-chaos-at-the-co https://www.npr.org/2024/03/03/1235606433/an-investigation-i...

camdenlock 3y ago

In the end, everyone’s just becoming a game company. Er, sorry; an “experience” company.

visarga 3y ago

Are NYT still writing news, or just copyright trolling?

ok123456 3y ago

Doesn't the name "Wordle" and the rules for the game come from an article in Creative Computing in the 70s?

ath0 3y ago
The name is a play on the author's last name (Josh Wardle): https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/03/technology/wordle-word-game-creator.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/03/technology/wordle-word-ga...

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MisterBastahrd 3y ago

Worldle is just hangman with hints.

wly_cdgr 3y ago

GTFO NYT lol it is well established that gameplay mechanics are not subject to copyright. The level of presumption and disrespect and ignorance about the culture is pretty par for the course for the goons running the NYT.

gnicholas 3y ago

> citing its ownership over the Wordle name and copyrighted gameplay including 5x6 tile layout and gray, yellow, and green color scheme. So this is referring to trademark (the name Wordle) and copyright — but not patent. It makes sense to go after people who are using the same actual name, since this clearly infringes the trademark, and because if you do not enforce ("police") your mark against minor players, you can end up losing the ability to enforce it against major players. But the copyright bit is a bit novel from my perspective (lawyer, but not copyright lawyer). If you had asked me what a copyright claim about Wordle would be about, I would have said the precise code. I might have wondered about the specific word lists, even though these would probably fail the "phone book" test (don't remember the case, but these were deemed uncopyrightable). I never would have thought about the tile layout and color scheme. That seems more like what I think of as "trade dress" [1] or perhaps something related to patent (which wouldn't apply here, unless the original Wordle owner had filed for patents a long time ago. Are there any copyright lawyers who can elucidate how the tile layout and color scheme might be subject to copyright law? I assume the NYT has good lawyers, and has thought long and hard before going after folks on github... 1: https://www.inta.org/topics/trade-dress https://www.inta.org/topics/trade-dress

mig39 3y ago

No problem with the New York Times ripping off Only Connect though. https://web.archive.org/web/20230709023951/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/new-york-times-new-puzzle-only-connect/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230709023951/https://www.teleg...

mynameisnoone 3y ago
The rules apply to me but not to thee because some animals are more equal than others.

deleted 3y ago

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fddrdplktrew 3y ago

DMCA itself should be illegal

brikym 3y ago

Hey NYT I hope you’ll enjoy my game called QWERTL https://qwertl.com https://qwertl.com Or my other game https://redactle.net https://redactle.net which sounds ever so similar to wordle so you had better send your lawyers. Or what about https://memorycardsgame.com https://memorycardsgame.com - I mean it has a grid layout so surely that must be copyrighted too. I will file any complaints into my computers /dev/null disk.

mynameisnoone 3y ago

"The [self-congratulatory] paper of record" behaves as an arrogant, evil megacorp. Is this news? (Pun intended)