7 ms·

I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and

I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and education of very high standard at very affordable prices, and free in the limit that one cannot afford to pay for them. As a relative of a person with a chronic disease I can tell you that on the one hand if we are not bankrupt it is because of public healthcare, and on the other I'm proud of contributing through my taxes so that anybody in need can have the same treatment irrespective of their economic situation.

formerly_proven 3y ago
High taxes with no matching value behind them is undeniably a negative.
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  Yes, that's my problem with high taxation, as someone who got burnt by it by virtue of living and paying taxes in the UK. I don't mind paying my fair share of tax if it means I get good value out of it, but the state of our healthcare here means that in practice the public healthcare system is no longer fit for purpose, so we are being forced to pay for a system that doesn't work and end up having to go private (and thus pay again) when we do need timely healthcare. I am generally in favor of fair, progressive taxation to ensure everyone has a good social safety net, but the taxation should be fair (it's no longer the case in the UK, since tax brackets haven't been adjusted for inflation) and the services paid for by those taxes should provide good value. The danger with services funded by taxes as opposed to a private enterprise operating in a free market is that private enterprises are bound by competitive pressure - if they are delivering terrible service and stuffing their pockets with the money, you are free not to do business with them and a potential competitor (that stuffs their pockets a little less) can come along and get your business instead. With tax-funded services, this pressure doesn't exist, so there's no incentive for politicians (and everyone else in the value chain) to deliver good service, since people generally can't opt out of taxes. This means that even if a service is currently good, there's no guarantee it will remain so since the pressure for it to remain isn't there. Thus, when you see high taxation, it's reasonable to be worried whether the service provided by those taxes is any good and whether it will remain so in the future.
  - mint2 3y ago
    Except there’s a lot of services that are unsuited to being delivered by competitive markets as it’s nearly impossible to prevent monopolization.
    - Nextgrid 3y ago
      Agreed, although this can be addressed by appropriate regulation. However, the ultimate issue is that the government should do its job well, and whether it's the task of adequately regulating a market vs providing the service itself, the problem that there's no pressure it to do it well still remains.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - ScoobleDoodle 3y ago
    Somehow in the USA these theoretical competitors that lower the profit margin and provide better service seem not to materialize. We end up with whole industries all of whose participants are funneling money to the executives and investors at the expense of customers and society. It’s such a broad issue that half of inflation is attributed to this corporate greed which is not being mitigated by the invisible hand of capitalist competition. Without proper regulation and enforcement capitalism devolves to monopolies and oligopolies and eliminate competition and subdue market forces.
  - mathgradthrow 3y ago
    private enterprise is not "bound by competitive pressure". Companies only compete by virtue of the government forcing them to. Are you arguing that humans, inventors of civilization, are too stupid to figure out how to cooperate?
    - Nextgrid 3y ago
      I disagree that companies only compete thanks to regulation. Companies competing is the default - regulation sometimes (either as an unintended oversight or malicious intent thanks to lobbying/corruption) prevents it though. There are many valid scenarios where competition is lacking, but generally speaking the reason it’s lacking is due to regulation/law making it impossible. Telecoms for example is impossible because the incumbents have exclusive control of the physical infrastructure (poles/ducts under the street) or spectrum auctions where the price makes it impossible for a new entrant to enter. Tech network effects are maintained by copyright law being abused to prevent adversarial interoperability.
- mcmcmc 3y ago
  Unless you want to get into the nitty gritty of economic policy analysis and measuring market externalities, value of public goods is pretty subjective. A healthy person might not see much value in public healthcare and a single adult with no kids might not care about education. Just because you don’t value something in the same way doesn’t mean it’s not highly valued by the people who voted on and implemented the policies.
  - jimcsharp 3y ago
    My neighbors suck less when they're warm, full, and healthy. How do the anti tax folks get past that hurdle? I'm trying to live my most evil life here but I'm stuck on very selfishly wanting cool neighbors.
  - mech422 3y ago
    well - my son is out of school - but I'll still pay for good schools cuz when I retire I want a doctor that can read... People forget, the young'uns are the ones you'll be counting on as you get older. Best to give them the best education possible, IMHO.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > High taxes with no matching value behind them That is not the case for Germany. We have - even with all its shortcomings - a decent education system that's largely free and accessible for everyone, a decent healthcare system, a decent public transport system on local, regional and federal system, and a very decent social security network that covers unemployment, pension and elderly care. The US in contrast has neither: parents have to pay five digits worth of money just for the birth of a child, pay through their nose for insurance, public schools are horribly underfunded, universities require six digits worth of debt, there's no high-speed rail worth the name, if you're unemployed you better have some savings, you have to take care about your 401k, and the best way if you need elderly care is to off yourself with a gun. The only thing where the US actually is in front of Germany is allowing you to get a gun to off yourself. Here in Germany, it's almost impossible to own a gun, so people love to off themselves by jumping in front of a train, creating a huge mess for everyone else.
  - greenavocado 3y ago
    INOVA in Northern Virginia charges $3000 for an uncomplicated vaginal birth. They have a code which rolls up many services into that code. There are additional in-hospital expenses such as the newborn hearing test which aggregate to about $400. If you have insurance your maximum cost out of pocket for the calendar year is between 5 and 15 thousand dollars (insurance covers everything above it). If you can't pay it all at once there are charities and payment plans you can discuss with the provider. If you don't have insurance you can possibly negotiate the bill down sometimes drastically or if necessary declare Chapter 7 or 13 bankruptcy if you really can't pay the bills. Bankruptcy sounds scarier than it really is. Chapter 7 bankruptcy lasts about 3 months and Chapter 13 bankruptcy lasts about 5 years during which you pay everything above your normal average household expenses to a special account for the creditors. Medical debt is unsecured debt and can be defaulted on and purged by the court following bankruptcy proceedings. Bankruptcy is much more problematic in Europe for the individual. Americans can keep their assets in a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. Health insurance in America costs between $500-$1000 a month for an entire family.
    - lupire 3y ago
- alexwhb 3y ago
  Agreed. Additionally taxation in our modern Fiat currencies is a farce, since the central banks can literally take as much buying power as they want from you. Taxation is literally just an illusion to make you feel like you are directly paying for government services.The real taxation is inflation.
- breather 3y ago
  Ah that's where the much higher quality of life kicks in.
Beijinger 3y ago
" I'm proud of contributing through my taxes so that anybody in need can have the same treatment irrespective of their economic situation." It is a big world my friend. And if millions come to use these services but don't pay in, the services get thinner and thinner. 1 Million Ukrainians came to German. Less than 25% have a job. The rest is financed by the taxpayer. Money, Rent, Health insurance... Edit: It reminds me of a Third Reich joke. An old woman goes into a map shop and looks at a globe. She asks the sales person: What is this big blue land on the globe? The sales person says: This is the USA. Old lady: And this huge Red area, what is this? The sales person says: This is the Soviet Union. Old lady: And this tiny brown spot, what is this? The sales person says: This is our Third Reich. Old lady: Does the Fuehrer know this? ----------- I hope you get what I am trying to say.
- mousetree 3y ago
  As a German who pays a lot in taxes each year, I’m more than happy for those taxes to support our Ukrainian friends who are refugees during this terrible situation
  - Beijinger 3y ago
    [flagged]
- illiac786 3y ago
  The one I have seen are all young women and kids. They will cause not even a fraction of the health care costs a 70 or 80 year old German generates. I can't find this stat but basically it's exponential, one generates more health care costs in the last ten years of its life than during its entire previous life, on average.
  - mk89 3y ago
    > They will cause not even a fraction of the health care costs a 70 or 80 year old German generates. I can't find this stat but basically it's exponential, one generates more health care costs in the last ten years of its life than during its entire previous life, on average. I really don't wanna get into this populist debate, which is really annoying lately as it seems to be our biggest issue in the world, but ... the 70-80 years old people (probably) worked in the country, they contributed to their own country, and should be treated with some respect or decency and not just as a cost.
RHSeeger 3y ago
> I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. High tax rates and, in fact, ANY taxes area a negative. However, that negative is (hopefully) offset by the positives that the things those taxes go to pay for provide.
dkural 3y ago
There is no capital gains tax - Germany has less progressive taxation than the United States! VAT in general is a regressive tax, that many EU countries inordinately rely on. A US-citizen has to pay taxes no matter where they reside, but the wealthier citizens of EU countries can easily evade taxes by domiciling themselves in various tax havens around the EU. Germany does a very poor job collecting taxes from the highest earners.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
kmlx 3y ago
> I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. after receiving the same services for no or minimal tax i also find it very disturbing that people still think high taxation is necessary.
- 0xFF0123 3y ago
  Where?
  - mk89 3y ago
    In general, if you don't pay taxes, in the listed countries you still can get treatment. It was probably a provocation - I guess?
  - kmlx 3y ago
    hong kong. super low taxes, great public services. singapore. low-ish taxes, excellent public services. there are others.
mk89 3y ago
Maybe nitpicking here, but healthcare is not financed with your taxes in Germany - it's financed by statutory health insurance (SHI) and private health insurance (PHI). The State "simply" sets the framework/legislation/etc. so that it doesn't get wild (like probably it is in the USA). [0] In Italy it's the state/regions that take your taxes and pay the health system. [0]: https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/fileadmin/Dateien/5_Publikationen/Gesundheit/Broschueren/200629_BMG_Das_deutsche_Gesundheitssystem_EN.pdf https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/fileadmin/Dateie...
throw10920 3y ago
> I find it quite disturbing Typical emotional manipulation... > that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and education of very high standard at very affordable prices, and free in the limit that one cannot afford to pay for them. ...coupled with an utterly illogical (and factually incorrect[1]) non-argument. You can have these things without high taxation, if the system that implements them is efficient. It's not. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39402957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39402957

formerly_proven 3y ago

High taxes with no matching value behind them is undeniably a negative.

Nextgrid 3y ago
Yes, that's my problem with high taxation, as someone who got burnt by it by virtue of living and paying taxes in the UK. I don't mind paying my fair share of tax if it means I get good value out of it, but the state of our healthcare here means that in practice the public healthcare system is no longer fit for purpose, so we are being forced to pay for a system that doesn't work and end up having to go private (and thus pay again) when we do need timely healthcare. I am generally in favor of fair, progressive taxation to ensure everyone has a good social safety net, but the taxation should be fair (it's no longer the case in the UK, since tax brackets haven't been adjusted for inflation) and the services paid for by those taxes should provide good value. The danger with services funded by taxes as opposed to a private enterprise operating in a free market is that private enterprises are bound by competitive pressure - if they are delivering terrible service and stuffing their pockets with the money, you are free not to do business with them and a potential competitor (that stuffs their pockets a little less) can come along and get your business instead. With tax-funded services, this pressure doesn't exist, so there's no incentive for politicians (and everyone else in the value chain) to deliver good service, since people generally can't opt out of taxes. This means that even if a service is currently good, there's no guarantee it will remain so since the pressure for it to remain isn't there. Thus, when you see high taxation, it's reasonable to be worried whether the service provided by those taxes is any good and whether it will remain so in the future.
- mint2 3y ago
  Except there’s a lot of services that are unsuited to being delivered by competitive markets as it’s nearly impossible to prevent monopolization.
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    Agreed, although this can be addressed by appropriate regulation. However, the ultimate issue is that the government should do its job well, and whether it's the task of adequately regulating a market vs providing the service itself, the problem that there's no pressure it to do it well still remains.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- ScoobleDoodle 3y ago
  Somehow in the USA these theoretical competitors that lower the profit margin and provide better service seem not to materialize. We end up with whole industries all of whose participants are funneling money to the executives and investors at the expense of customers and society. It’s such a broad issue that half of inflation is attributed to this corporate greed which is not being mitigated by the invisible hand of capitalist competition. Without proper regulation and enforcement capitalism devolves to monopolies and oligopolies and eliminate competition and subdue market forces.
- mathgradthrow 3y ago
  private enterprise is not "bound by competitive pressure". Companies only compete by virtue of the government forcing them to. Are you arguing that humans, inventors of civilization, are too stupid to figure out how to cooperate?
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    I disagree that companies only compete thanks to regulation. Companies competing is the default - regulation sometimes (either as an unintended oversight or malicious intent thanks to lobbying/corruption) prevents it though. There are many valid scenarios where competition is lacking, but generally speaking the reason it’s lacking is due to regulation/law making it impossible. Telecoms for example is impossible because the incumbents have exclusive control of the physical infrastructure (poles/ducts under the street) or spectrum auctions where the price makes it impossible for a new entrant to enter. Tech network effects are maintained by copyright law being abused to prevent adversarial interoperability.
mcmcmc 3y ago
Unless you want to get into the nitty gritty of economic policy analysis and measuring market externalities, value of public goods is pretty subjective. A healthy person might not see much value in public healthcare and a single adult with no kids might not care about education. Just because you don’t value something in the same way doesn’t mean it’s not highly valued by the people who voted on and implemented the policies.
- jimcsharp 3y ago
  My neighbors suck less when they're warm, full, and healthy. How do the anti tax folks get past that hurdle? I'm trying to live my most evil life here but I'm stuck on very selfishly wanting cool neighbors.
- mech422 3y ago
  well - my son is out of school - but I'll still pay for good schools cuz when I retire I want a doctor that can read... People forget, the young'uns are the ones you'll be counting on as you get older. Best to give them the best education possible, IMHO.
mschuster91 3y ago
> High taxes with no matching value behind them That is not the case for Germany. We have - even with all its shortcomings - a decent education system that's largely free and accessible for everyone, a decent healthcare system, a decent public transport system on local, regional and federal system, and a very decent social security network that covers unemployment, pension and elderly care. The US in contrast has neither: parents have to pay five digits worth of money just for the birth of a child, pay through their nose for insurance, public schools are horribly underfunded, universities require six digits worth of debt, there's no high-speed rail worth the name, if you're unemployed you better have some savings, you have to take care about your 401k, and the best way if you need elderly care is to off yourself with a gun. The only thing where the US actually is in front of Germany is allowing you to get a gun to off yourself. Here in Germany, it's almost impossible to own a gun, so people love to off themselves by jumping in front of a train, creating a huge mess for everyone else.
- greenavocado 3y ago
  INOVA in Northern Virginia charges $3000 for an uncomplicated vaginal birth. They have a code which rolls up many services into that code. There are additional in-hospital expenses such as the newborn hearing test which aggregate to about $400. If you have insurance your maximum cost out of pocket for the calendar year is between 5 and 15 thousand dollars (insurance covers everything above it). If you can't pay it all at once there are charities and payment plans you can discuss with the provider. If you don't have insurance you can possibly negotiate the bill down sometimes drastically or if necessary declare Chapter 7 or 13 bankruptcy if you really can't pay the bills. Bankruptcy sounds scarier than it really is. Chapter 7 bankruptcy lasts about 3 months and Chapter 13 bankruptcy lasts about 5 years during which you pay everything above your normal average household expenses to a special account for the creditors. Medical debt is unsecured debt and can be defaulted on and purged by the court following bankruptcy proceedings. Bankruptcy is much more problematic in Europe for the individual. Americans can keep their assets in a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. Health insurance in America costs between $500-$1000 a month for an entire family.
  - lupire 3y ago
alexwhb 3y ago
Agreed. Additionally taxation in our modern Fiat currencies is a farce, since the central banks can literally take as much buying power as they want from you. Taxation is literally just an illusion to make you feel like you are directly paying for government services.The real taxation is inflation.
breather 3y ago
Ah that's where the much higher quality of life kicks in.

Beijinger 3y ago

" I'm proud of contributing through my taxes so that anybody in need can have the same treatment irrespective of their economic situation." It is a big world my friend. And if millions come to use these services but don't pay in, the services get thinner and thinner. 1 Million Ukrainians came to German. Less than 25% have a job. The rest is financed by the taxpayer. Money, Rent, Health insurance... Edit: It reminds me of a Third Reich joke. An old woman goes into a map shop and looks at a globe. She asks the sales person: What is this big blue land on the globe? The sales person says: This is the USA. Old lady: And this huge Red area, what is this? The sales person says: This is the Soviet Union. Old lady: And this tiny brown spot, what is this? The sales person says: This is our Third Reich. Old lady: Does the Fuehrer know this? ----------- I hope you get what I am trying to say.

mousetree 3y ago
As a German who pays a lot in taxes each year, I’m more than happy for those taxes to support our Ukrainian friends who are refugees during this terrible situation
- Beijinger 3y ago
  [flagged]
illiac786 3y ago
The one I have seen are all young women and kids. They will cause not even a fraction of the health care costs a 70 or 80 year old German generates. I can't find this stat but basically it's exponential, one generates more health care costs in the last ten years of its life than during its entire previous life, on average.
- mk89 3y ago
  > They will cause not even a fraction of the health care costs a 70 or 80 year old German generates. I can't find this stat but basically it's exponential, one generates more health care costs in the last ten years of its life than during its entire previous life, on average. I really don't wanna get into this populist debate, which is really annoying lately as it seems to be our biggest issue in the world, but ... the 70-80 years old people (probably) worked in the country, they contributed to their own country, and should be treated with some respect or decency and not just as a cost.

RHSeeger 3y ago

> I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. High tax rates and, in fact, ANY taxes area a negative. However, that negative is (hopefully) offset by the positives that the things those taxes go to pay for provide.

dkural 3y ago

There is no capital gains tax - Germany has less progressive taxation than the United States! VAT in general is a regressive tax, that many EU countries inordinately rely on. A US-citizen has to pay taxes no matter where they reside, but the wealthier citizens of EU countries can easily evade taxes by domiciling themselves in various tax havens around the EU. Germany does a very poor job collecting taxes from the highest earners.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

kmlx 3y ago

> I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. after receiving the same services for no or minimal tax i also find it very disturbing that people still think high taxation is necessary.

0xFF0123 3y ago
Where?
- mk89 3y ago
  In general, if you don't pay taxes, in the listed countries you still can get treatment. It was probably a provocation - I guess?
- kmlx 3y ago
  hong kong. super low taxes, great public services. singapore. low-ish taxes, excellent public services. there are others.

mk89 3y ago

Maybe nitpicking here, but healthcare is not financed with your taxes in Germany - it's financed by statutory health insurance (SHI) and private health insurance (PHI). The State "simply" sets the framework/legislation/etc. so that it doesn't get wild (like probably it is in the USA). [0] In Italy it's the state/regions that take your taxes and pay the health system. [0]: https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/fileadmin/Dateien/5_Publikationen/Gesundheit/Broschueren/200629_BMG_Das_deutsche_Gesundheitssystem_EN.pdf https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/fileadmin/Dateie...

throw10920 3y ago

> I find it quite disturbing Typical emotional manipulation... > that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and education of very high standard at very affordable prices, and free in the limit that one cannot afford to pay for them. ...coupled with an utterly illogical (and factually incorrect[1]) non-argument. You can have these things without high taxation, if the system that implements them is efficient. It's not. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39402957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39402957