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Incorrect. You’re using one of the intransitive definitions but general speaking it’s the transitive forms that apply to digital content, ideas, information, e
by photonerd 3y ago
Incorrect.
You’re using one of the intransitive definitions but general speaking it’s the transitive forms that apply to digital content, ideas, information, etc.
1. to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully
2. to take away by force or unjust means
3. to take surreptitiously or without permission
You may not want stealing to mean that… but that’s irrelevant to reality.
- stcg 3y agoAlso in these transitive definitions, stealing is about taking. And in the case of piracy (communicating information to others without permission of the original source), nothing is taken. The person that came up with the idea still has it. The photographer still has the picture. The programmer still has the program. It's just about what another person may do with it, the one receiving the picture. May they also send it to someone else? We could have different ideas about that, but calling it "stealing" is inaccurate.
- photonerd 3y agoTaking can simply mean “to gain or acquire”. So, once again, incorrect. Sorry. I’m sympathetic to the moral argument you’re making—though when the raw goods are digital too I think it’s an impractical & ill conceived one—but both legally AND linguistically… it’s incorrect
- stcg 3y agoLet's say Alice took a photograph and sends a copy of it to Bob. Are you then saying that when Bob sends another copy to Charlie, Bob is taking something? What is Bob taking?
- photonerd 3y agoCharlie certainly was (he took a copy from Bob). Bob is the distributor in this context however. In most Berne convention states he broke copyright law (technically, but nothing would happen) Together Bob & Charlie gained or acquired a picture produced by Alice’s work effort that was unauthorized. That’s stealing. Is it a big deal? Probably not. Still stealing.
- Nursie 3y agoAlice still has it, so it’s not stealing as commonly understood. I’d say the opposite - it could still be a huge deal to Alice, but it doesn’t meet the definition of stealing or theft.
- jdright 3y agoas you said, he broke copyright law. that is copyright infringement, it is not theft.
- kthejoker2 3y agoSo close and then the stealing part slipped back in. We have a separate term already for the right to copy something - copyright. We have a term for copying something without that right- copyright infringement. Not theft. Copyright infringement.
- autoexec 3y agoWhich dictionary defines taking as simply gaining or acquiring something? If you "take" something from someone else it generally means that they no longer have what you took. This is all really pretty simple: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTybKL1pM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTybKL1pM4 Also, (at least in the US) legally copyright infringement is distinct from stealing.
- ben_w 3y agoHot take, take a photo, take part, take the bus, take a left, take a shower, take pride in your work, take a joke, take something apart, take my word for it, take a while, take an oath. Being over precious about definitions is unwise. Also, from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/take https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/take Verb, 1, To get into one's hands, possession, or control, with or without force.
- jasonjayr 3y agoThis use of 'take' is an endless source of dad jokes, of course. Child: "I'm going to go take a shower" Dad: "Make sure you put it back when you're done."
- worthless-trash 3y agoA new legend, was born.
- bcrosby95 3y agoIs taking a picture of someone kidnapping?
- ben_w 3y agoCurious choice of example. I know what you mean of course, but the point is words shift meaning. For a counter-example connected to your choice, I was recently made aware of the Latin word for "to abduct", and how that word may well be why it took so long for spousal abuse to become recognised as an offence — to paraphrase your own question to demonstrate how this goes very wrong, how can you "abduct" someone you live with?
- 28304283409234 3y agoSay one counterfeits a hundred dollar bill perfectly. Does he steal? Say he is able to do this in large quantities. Does he steal? You still have you hundred dollar bill. No loss to you right? Wrong. Your money’s worth is lessened by the counterfeiting, the copying. That is what they mean by stealing: you are decreasing the value of their products by providing identical copies outside of their control.
- idle_zealot 3y agoYou're right that counterfeiting devalues currency, but that doesn't make it stealing. Nobody would refer to counterfeit currency as "stolen".
- 28304283409234 3y agoAlrighty. So copying movies is fraud. Not theft or piracy.
- gpm 3y agoFraud involves lying, copyright infringement doesn't necessarily. Copying movies is copying things congress said you can't, a crime distinct from both theft and fraud. Piracy has for whatever reason been co-opted to refer to copying despite that having no relationship to piracy on the high seas, but no one is playing linguistic games to argue that they're the same thing so whatever.
- hooverd 3y agoIt's only fraud if you sell them as genuine?
- Trombone12 3y agoSince value is only defined by what people are willing to pay for it, and lacking any extra common rules, these acts of copying simply signal not accepting the demanded price: so the value claimed by the owner was not the actual value, thus they have lost only their self-deception about the value.
- lesostep 3y ago>> And in the case of piracy (communicating information to others without permission of the original source), nothing is taken. I'd like to add, that revoking a license is about taking someone access away. Only one side is taking something and it's not the pirates.
- 123pie123 3y agopeople are not taking anything, they're copying
- photonerd 3y agoCopying is “gaining or acquiring” so would come under “taking”, sorry.
- numerobis 3y agoTo take: "to move something or someone from one place to another". Copying is not taking, sorry.
- The_Colonel 3y agoYou seem to be using a dictionary with very short entries. Mine contains 10 different meanings of the verb "take" and one of them is "obtain, gain, acquire".
- jonhohle 3y agoDictionary definitions and legal definitions may or may not overlap. If not discussing the legal definition, than steal could mean someone enjoyed an appropriately licensed copyrighted work secretly or in private.
- Blahah 3y agoYour definition supports the OP. All three require 'taking', which doesn't happen with copying
- photonerd 3y agoTaking can simply mean “to gain or acquire”. If that’s your argument… it’s unsound linguistics and legally.
- sophacles 3y agoIf its an unsound argument, why are copyright and theft different bodies of law?
- Blahah 3y agoBut that isn't what it means in the context of theft, and linguistically the distinction is clear unless you are being disingenuous. There is absolutely no linguistic foundation for equating theft and duplicating information. Legally the distinction is also clear - transgression of copyright law is specifically given the term "copyright infringement" in law in English speaking countries and in international agreements. A person cannot be convicted of theft for copying information. The US supreme court, among others, ruled on exactly this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_(1985) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_(19...
- cesaref 3y agoThe point is that stealing has traditionally meant denying the rightful owner the thing that has been stolen. What is going on here is that a copy has been made without permission - piracy is copyright infringement, this is different to stealing. https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-definitions.html#:~:text=What%20is%20copyright%20infringement%3F,permission%20of%20the%20copyright%20owner https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-definitions.html#:~:t.... Now there has been a lot of effort by the media industry to equate copyright infringement with stealing, I think because the public at large doesn't really understand infringement as a terrible thing. Stealing appears in the 10 commandments, so in our judeo christian societies it's a home run to get 'right thinking' people on side.