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> Take Jeanine Banks, for example, who manages the department that somewhat arbitrarily contains (among other things) Flutter, Dart, Go, and Firebase. Her depar
by drubio 3y ago
> Take Jeanine Banks, for example, who manages the department that somewhat arbitrarily contains (among other things) Flutter, Dart, Go, and Firebase. Her department nominally has a strategy, but I couldn't leak it if I wanted to; I literally could never figure out what any part of it meant, even after years of hearing her describe it. Her understanding of what her teams are doing is minimal at best; she frequently makes requests that are completely incoherent and inapplicable. She treats engineers as commodities in a way that is dehumanising, reassigning people against their will in ways that have no relationship to their skill set. She is completely unable to receive constructive feedback (as in, she literally doesn't even acknowledge it). I hear other teams (who have leaders more politically savvy than I) have learned how to "handle" her to keep her off their backs, feeding her just the right information at the right time.
What a shellacking. I never heard of her, so did a quick search, she's on X/Twitter https://twitter.com/femtechie https://twitter.com/femtechie ; and yes, her Linkedin vanity url is, get this:
https://linkedin.com/in/winner https://linkedin.com/in/winner
- emodendroket 3y agoIt sounds like the generic complaints of everyone who doesn't like their manager ever and frankly I would have thought twice before attaching my name to a broadside that attacks a former manager by name. But hey, what do I know, I never worked at Google.
- teaearlgraycold 3y agoEven in my “I quit Google” post I was careful to make it impossible for an outsider to determine who I was complaining about, even scrubbing my team info from LinkedIn. But I think 18 years at Google means the author has plenty of “fuck you” money.
- emodendroket 3y agoYou are probably right; I just don't really see what's to be gained by going public with it considering the complaints are pretty inside-baseball and not that interesting to outsiders (I mean, hard to imagine someone thinking "I'm not going to deal with Google because so-and-so's subordinates say they don't understand her strategy").
- Capricorn2481 3y agoI will certainly not use Dart if a person in charge of its direction doesn't know what they're doing even at a basic level. I can't just blindly hope her team does what's best and doesn't listen to her.
- emodendroket 3y agoIt'd be hard to find an org where you couldn't find someone to make similar complaints.
- Capricorn2481 3y agoI'm in one. This is a pretty specific dressing down from a senior engineer. It's disturbing, and consistent with Google's output
- henrytill 3y agoI found myself asking the same questions after reading the post. You might consider reading the followup post: https://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1700627532&count=1 https://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1700627532&count=1 It suggests that, in spite of his problems with management, the author remains bullish about Flutter (and likely Dart).
- thrownaway9739 3y agoThe Dart team certainly has vision! The VP above might not, but who cares...
- teaearlgraycold 3y agoIt’s just venting. A person in the author’s position must feel that the mediocre management robbed them of a core part of their identity.
- sage76 3y agoYou are implying that every manager is competent and every criticism from a subordinate is baseless.
- mmkos 3y agoOh well. Maybe it's about time incompetent people were named and shamed, maybe that would put a stop to failing upwards for people who really shouldn't be there.
- emodendroket 3y agoIt's doubtful.
- concordDance 3y agoOnce it becomes acceptable I expect the correlation between people naming and shaming and actual poor performance/bad behaviour to drop drastically. Proper workers aren't as good at playing politics as those who just focus on politics.
- pas 3y agothere would at least be some data, probably noisy, gamed, a bad proxy for this signal, but much better than the current empty void littered with courtesy linkedin endorsements
- emodendroket 3y agoSign up for Glassdoor, and you will find by-name denunciations of people who work at any company you care to interview for.
- caskstrength 3y ago> But I think 18 years at Google means the author has plenty of “fuck you” money. And the balls! Dunno whether I read your generic "why I quit Google" essay, but author's post was the first that I liked due to his willingness to throw punches.
- downWidOutaFite 3y agoKeeping quiet about perceived problems is exactly the kind of toxic political lack of transparency that Ian is calling out here.
- emodendroket 3y agoHow much is it really doing if you’re making the criticism after you left?
- whoknowsidont 3y agoInfinitely more than never talking about it, at the very least. It definitely will empower others to talk about it by validating their perceptions and concerns.
- 93po 3y agoI would guess he's been advocating for this for years before he left.
- qez2 3y ago[dead]
- chatmasta 3y agoWhile I'd never do that either, I did find it refreshing to read from someone else. It certainly makes this post unique amongst the many "I left Google" diary entries. Frankly the fact he was willing to include that paragraph probably indicates that there's a few thousand more paragraphs he resisted including...
- pyb 3y agoA 18-year veteran like OP shouldn't be complaining about their manager's lack of vision ; they should have realised by now that it's also their job to enact the vision. He was probably paid too much to behave as a passenger.
- LudwigNagasena 3y agoWhat is a problem with being an IC?
- ska 3y agoNothing wrong with being an IC. A senior IC role includes some responsibility for this sort of thing, that's most of what makes it senior...
- scamworld2 3y agoWho exactly at Google isn't a passenger? Jeff Dean? There aren't many pilots there.
- CrimsonRain 3y agoYou have no idea what you are talking about. Hixie has enough vision and is loved by everyone. It's not his job to manage a clueless manager.
- thrownaway9739 3y agoAny vision covering firebase, flutter, dart and go, etc. doesn't make sense. It would take close to a decade to align these products. My impression is that this is a place to hang these products on the org-tree. IMO the individual teams appear to have LOTS of vision! The VP in question is unnecessary (IMO).
- mathattack 3y agoI would never name names but I don’t have 18 years of Google equity. I suspect he didn’t have any non-disparagement clauses to sign.
- yterdy 3y ago[flagged]
- pb7 3y agoNo need to wait, the entire OpenAI board is white and they’ve been getting torn apart the entire weekend.
- jimbob21 3y agoAnd her summary is literally a list of corporate buzzwords
- willsmith72 3y agoNothing kills motivation more than bad management, I can totally feel his pain. In saying that, I don't think public, targeted statements like this are ever the right thing to do. She's just a person, doing a job.
- NanoYohaneTSU 3y agoYou know people can be evil or at the least they can be bad people. Do you think this person is bad or good? My point is that when you say something like "She's just a person, doing a job." you're defending the bad rather than calling it out.
- KerryJones 3y agoI don't know her (nor do I presume to know her), but if I take your definition of "bad" as in "morally bad" (you used it in the context of evil), that feels pretty presumptuous, and then fairly attacking to assume the commenter is "defending the bad". There are so many people who end up half-assing their jobs in various ways, I think it's a pretty slippery slope to start calling those people "bad". They may be bad at their job, but I wouldn't call them bad people. I also don't have enough information to say she's "not" a bad person, but with the information given, I don't see anything that would indicate she is one.
- willsmith72 3y agoThis is exactly my point. There is no way the public has information about whether the person is bad or good, just 1 disgruntled employee's impression of their job performance. There's more to life and a person than a job. That's all. Even the worst managers I've had have been good people. They're good dads and mums, enjoy hiking and camping. Public statements like this one are easy to make, impossible to verify or challenge, and only cause hurt
- bruce343434 3y agoWhat good does that do when they ruin a workplace? If I were bad at my job, it's not like I wouldn't get fired because I'm just such a great person outside of the workplace...
- tcbawo 3y agoI have come to the opinion that being an executive at any sufficiently large company revolves around building a cult of personality. Any contribution they make would be nearly impossible to compare against what a possible replacement candidate would make. This might be a fair or unfair characterization -- it might even be both! Building a personal brand by being a cheerleader for your company/organization, maintaining the image that you have everything figured out and everything is under control, while taking credit for building the world class team underneath you is essential.
- gorbachev 3y agoI don't think that's quite accurate. There are genuinely amazing, highly respected executives in some (most?) tech companies. I do agree though that the public facing image of a lot of them is a lot of hype. A lot of the big companies want to build an aura of infallible leader extraordinaire's for their management team.
- tcbawo 3y agoI didn’t say that they weren’t talented or deserving people. But at some point, managing perception is essential to surviving and excelling. There are plenty of geniuses that fail to get their due. The hagiography (especially on this site) is particularly strong and often paints these people as larger than life. Based on the downvotes of my opinion, I seem to have struck a nerve.
- znpy 3y agoI noticed that and it's a very strong point. Taking such a strong stance is not something would so light-heartedly, i really wonder what went on to drive this person to write such harsh words about her. Considering the amount of people the author has likely seen over 18 years and how many of them he could have complained about... It must not be a chance it's her specifically.
- kradroy 3y agoThere's no greater source of professional resentment than suffering under a manager who's incompetent and a narcissist (my summary of his blurb). After 18 years at Google he probably feels safe burning that bridge.
- ghaff 3y agoBut why? I could legitimately IMO rag on a handful of former managers who I think mostly meant well but I’m not going to do it in a blog post.
- caskstrength 3y ago> But why? I could legitimately IMO rag on a handful of former managers who I think mostly meant well but I’m not going to do it in a blog post. Maybe he doesn't think that she mostly meant well?
- lannisterstark 3y agoBut you could.
- pseg134 3y agoWell that is because you live your life from a place of fear. Not everyone is like that.
- ghaff 3y agoIt’s not fear. I just don’t really believe in opening up scabs.
- starkparker 3y agoThe only thing I know her from is I/O, where she kicks off/MCs the dev keynotes. Her I/O bio says "VP and GM of Developer X" and "Head of Developer Relations", but I have no idea if "Developer X" is developer experience, or a reference to the old X skunkworks, or something else entirely. EDIT: Dug a little more and it's the group formerly known as Developer Product. So Firebase, etc. makes sense. Successor to Jason Titus.
- throwaway678808 3y agoI worked in the org that Jeanine now runs. It had a series of bad-to-disastrous leaders at the Director, VP, and SVP level. To call out Jeanine and only Jeanine in language this harsh feels wrong. From my recollection and from what I have heard from people still working there, she is par for the course. Also I am almost never the person to bring this kind of thing up but ... there aren't a lot of other black women in leadership at Google. Makes this targeted attack feel worse.
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- sage76 3y ago> there aren't a lot of other black women in leadership at Google. Makes this targeted attack feel worse. Are people of specific races to be put beyond criticism?
- 0xbadcafebee 3y ago[flagged]
- namtab00 3y agoPost author never mentioned her race, HN commenters did.
- llbeansandrice 3y agoIf she is in fact "par for the course" and the failures of that department were at multiple levels then that type of criticism is certainly suspect. I give you a C- at attempted strawman though.
- alargemoose 3y agoThis seems like a bizarre mid-representation of GPs point. They sated she was “par for the course” for that department. Meaning everyone was bad, not just her. And found it concerning she was the only person they singled out.
- jjiij 3y agoI don't really see how naming the specific individual improved the argument, unless there is true malfeasance, like sexual harassment, I don't think it's ethical to publicly name-and-shame somebody for the crime of being bad at their job. LOTS of people are bad at their job.
- leoh 3y agoShe probably makes $10M a year, don’t worry about it.
- cobertos 3y agoDoing so head-on solves the problem faster. Talking directly to someone or about the problem as it is has felt to me like people can understand and act quicker. Less malcontent is felt by those affected by such a person's incompetence. Capturing the subtleties in such a black/white call-out usually is lost though to the reader/listener. It also doesn't lend to this to do this so publically, for the entire internet.
- nemo44x 3y agoIt doesn’t really matter as the poster is in the “clueless” cohort of the company and she’s a sociopath. He thinks that the company exists to do whatever he said it was earlier when in fact the sociopaths running it at that time just said that to attract people that can do work to make them rich. He thinks she is bad at her job and it’s clear she’s not. She know precisely how to move people around to take blame for failures while staying clean and clear to brag about the wins. To the clueless she might look dumb but she’s not at all. She knows how to secure her millions in comp per year and retire early. She’s very smart. To be fair he seems to be waking up to the fact the sociopaths are in it for themselves, 18 years later.
- SadCordDrone 3y ago> He thinks she is bad at her job and it’s clear she’s not. 'At her job' - her job is improving the department. > She knows how to secure her millions in comp per year and retire early. She’s very smart. If I had the background, connections and privileges of these several MBA types, I could also do that. But I couldnt perhaps be a great engineer. Therefore I wouldn't share your appreciation of sociopathy, and I believe many people are of similar opinion.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- kenjackson 3y agoHis critique of his manager doesn’t paint him in the most positive light either. The fact that she seems to articulate the strategy but he doesn’t understand it is something I’ve seen on a few occasions where people effectively refuse to acknowledge the strategy because they disagree with some aspect of it. His lack of specificity on almost all counts but her name also makes me question his judgment.
- electriclove 3y agoThis has been happening at every middle sized and up tech company over the last couple of decades. Woke leadership brings in diverse but incompetent management that kills morale, productivity and any sense of purpose in the company.
- yterdy 3y ago[flagged]
- ot1138 3y agoWow. Yes, there's absolutely zero criticism of white males these days.
- yterdy 3y agoNot of non-public figures, not this acerbically, not singled-out, on the front page of HN, with most of the comment section assuming that every word must be true without having ever met them. The Old Boys' Club is real and it would be career suicide.
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- johnwheeler 3y agoI really like that he calls her and pichai out. They’re both undeserving fat cats. If you’re going to be a fat cat, you should know you’re a fat cat. Otherwise, you’ll think you deserve even more.
- quickthrower2 3y agoWould be interesting in data. Is this a Jeanine thing or a Google culture thing. Probably a Google culture thing.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]