5 ms·

For all the reasons that this might not take off, what a thrill that people are trying something new--and it looks really nicely designed too. I think this is

by Osmium 3y ago

For all the reasons that this might not take off, what a thrill that people are trying something new--and it looks really nicely designed too. I think this is easy to dismiss at first glance, but I genuinely believe they're trying to think about a new mode of interaction. The idea that "the computer will disappear" is probably accurate in the long term. Except for content delivery (reading, photos, movies), most tasks we achieve via computers and phones do not strictly require a screen. It's probably a good thing if computers did a better job of getting out of the way, and stop so loudly disrupting human interactions. Whether this will be the solution is unclear; the privacy/creepiness angle is still real with an outwards-facing camera. Latency and battery life limitations might be too significant. The cost will be a non-starter for many (it is for me). But I'm still impressed because there was a vision here. The conversational interface has never worked before for many reasons, but that does not mean it cannot work in principle, or that the ideal implementation would not be spellbinding. I'm glad they're trying. Also, the laser display is neat!

dj_gitmo 3y ago
I agree. This looks like a gadget, which means I probably won't rush to buy one, but I'm glad people are trying to push the envelope.
Aperocky 3y ago
> most tasks we achieve via computers and phones do not strictly require a screen. X (doubt). There are unfortunately only 5 senses that our brains can interact with the outside world, and visual ways are the most information dense and the easiest to utilize. The screen isn't going away anytime soon. Projector to me are same as screen - they've been around for as long too. Though I do look forward to direct computer-brain interface, like introducing a 6th sense.
- TylerE 3y ago
  The 5 senses thing is long-disproven rubbish. Humans have hundreds of senses.
  - Aperocky 3y ago
    Would love to hear what the rest of those are, please be specific.
    - TylerE 3y ago
      Well, for instance, what is commonly referred to as "touch" is actually a whole bundle of senses. There's the actual sensation of pressure, but also texture, temperature, surface finish, the physical position of your various body parts, your sense of balance, etc etc.
      - paledot 3y ago
        Okay, but unless you're suggesting a computer interface based on proprioception, I'm not sure that that's relevant to the topic at hand. I too would be interested to see an enumerated list of over 100 senses.
        TylerE 3y ago
        Isn't that what all the various VR glove type controllers are?
        albedoa 3y ago
        Can't help but notice that you again didn't answer the question. I will third the request.
        RugnirViking 3y ago
        not the parent but I posted an honest attempt at such a list on the sister comment if you're interested :)
        TylerE 3y ago
        Rather pushy demand for well after the East Coast has gone to sleep.
- gizajob 3y ago
  Projectors really love flat, non-moving surfaces. Will be interesting to see how they've coped with a wiggly hand wiggling around or in motion.
  - thebigman433 3y ago
    I highly doubt this thing is even usable outdoors. You would need pretty insane brightness levels for this to work in the sunlight. Companies have been trying to make projects with touch input for years, and nobody has gotten close to anything resembling a consumer product, I highly doubt they achieved it here
    - gizajob 3y ago
      I agree, even though I'll reserve judgement until trying it. But it remains that limitations in power are unavoidable, and projecting a laser image onto a hand in daylight is going to use an awful lot of juice, particularly given the projector is so tiny I've no idea how this can be done so it's functional, nevermind "insanely great". Same goes for their claim that the speakers inside this tiny device are worthy of getting sound to the ears while skateboarding outdoors. You can have all the Head Related Transfer Functions in the world but again, you need speakers and amplifiers on the order of several watts to get the sound up to the ears. My iPhone Pro Max sounds great and loud in a quiet room, but take it onto the street to play music, it's barely audible. Also not sure how the device will know what kind of HRTF to use given its placement is going to vary so much.
eschneider 3y ago
Yeah, I expect that this will die a horrible death in the market, but it's definitely interesting with it's Star Trek vibe. :) The next generation of devices that incorporate some of these features might be more successful.
- olyjohn 3y ago
  I imagine if this company is successful, it will become quite the enterprise.
  - eschneider 3y ago
    This doesn't feel like the right product for a lot of reasons. (Wait...do I have to pin it to the outside of my coat when I put that on? What's the battery life outside a coat in winter? Will it catch on my seatbelt?) Lots of practical problems for a lot of people. Still, LOTS of interesting ideas here.
ChrisLTD 3y ago
> Whether this will be the solution is unclear; the privacy/creepiness angle is still real with an outwards-facing camera. I don't think you're wrong, but it's funny that we aren't as concerned about everyone walking around with outwards-facing phone cameras.
- fennecfoxy 3y ago
  And especially since we can now make cameras small enough that you'd never know they were there. Even OVM6948 is commercially available, the size of a "grain of sand". I've always said that privacy is an illusion, the usual example I give is: "You're lying in bed with the curtains drawn, you see a shadow fall across the curtains that looks like a person standing outside. Do you, or do you not have privacy?" If the shadow turns out to be a person peeking through the curtains, then you don't. If the shadow turns out to be primal brain + tree shadow then you do. Schrodinger style. Privacy is probably best described (as it sometimes is) as a "sense" of privacy I guess.
- niemal_dev 3y ago
  Well said.
- yreg 3y ago
  Or microphones being present absolutely everywhere. I myself never felt like taping my camera, I feel like if someone pwned my system I would be much more worried about the leaked audio.
- mainpassathome 3y ago
  tbf those are usually in a pocker or down facing, with filming being an explicit and purposeful action
  - ChrisLTD 3y ago
    Plenty of people are walking around, or sitting in a public place with their phone cameras facing out to the world.
vineyardmike 3y ago
First, I’m really excited people are trying new things, but I won’t be buying this just based on the demo. > The conversational interface has never worked before for many reasons, but that does not mean it cannot work in principle, …. I'm glad they're trying. Also, the laser display is neat! So I did a lot of work over the years to research voice UI/UX and I’m very skeptical about this, even with the LLM stuff. I think an LLM was missing from the Siri/alexa era to transform it from “audio cli” to “chat interface” but there’s a few reasons besides that it didn’t catch on. The information density and linearity of chat, voice especially, is a big problem. When you look at a screen, your eyes can move in 2 dimensions. You can have sidebars, you can have text fields organized in paragraphs and buttons and bars etc. Not so with chatting - when you add linearity (you can only listen to or read one thing at a time, conversation can only present one list at a time) it becomes really slow to navigate any sort of decision or menu trees. Mobile-first have simplified this of course, but it’s not enough. Reading TTS becomes even slower to find the info you care about. It’s found a place for simple controls (smarthome, media, timers, etc) and simple information retrieval (weather, announce doorbell, read last text). Then there’s the obvious problem of talking out loud in public, false response recognition etc which are necessary evils of a voice UI. I think the best hope for a voice device like this is to (as they’ve done) focus on simple experiences like “what’s I miss recently” and hope an AI can do a good enough job. The laser display might help with presenting a full menu at once (media controls being an easy example), but it probably will end up being a pain to use (eg like a worse smartwatch). Honestly though, my biggest hesitation (which could end up great) is the “pin” design. It’s novel, especially with the projector, but how heavy is it and how will that impact the comfort of my clothes? What about when wearing a jacket or scarf? Will this flop around while walking? Etc.
- ttepasse 3y ago
  There is also a lack of serendipity or explorability with voice: How do you know whats possible? There is a reason a GUI menu is called a menu. It not only gives you access to multiple options but also at a glance an overview what options are there, like a restaurant menu.
  - esafak 3y ago
seydor 3y ago
> The idea that "the computer will disappear" is probably accurate in the long term. Why though? Computer requires attention, which pretty much rules out doing something else while using it, except perhaps when passively listening to a podcast (which doesnt really qualify as computer use). Even though we may see new mediums, the mode of interaction will remain similar to that of a book
lovepronmostly 3y ago
> It's probably a good thing if computers did a better job of getting out of the way, and stop so loudly disrupting human interactions. And that is not this. Talking out loud every few moments with verbal commands do a device is way more annoying that someone looking at and typing on a phone That said, I agree with you at a glance it's neat. I think in reality though it's a poor idea given how often people need to give a verbal command.
- mptest 3y ago
  The talking out loud I agree is problematic. The bluetooth functionality and increasing quality audio pass through give me hope for a simple earphone in one ear, and eventually... this: https://x.com/ruohanzhang76/status/1720525179028406492 https://x.com/ruohanzhang76/status/1720525179028406492 Also bullish on hand gesture control. Maybe most stuff will eventually become jutsu level fancy hand movements lol. What a time to be alive. It is easy to remain grateful in this age of rapid progress.
alpaca128 3y ago
The problem is the voice-based approach: it won't work reliably in loud environments, it won't be usable in a doctor's waiting room, libraries and other quiet environments, and some people simply don't like voice UIs. If you want the computer to disappear, why not a better smartwatch? Or glasses, this time without the sci-fi gadget look? Both could support the exact same featureset but with a screen.

by Osmium 3y ago

dj_gitmo 3y ago

I agree. This looks like a gadget, which means I probably won't rush to buy one, but I'm glad people are trying to push the envelope.

Aperocky 3y ago

> most tasks we achieve via computers and phones do not strictly require a screen. X (doubt). There are unfortunately only 5 senses that our brains can interact with the outside world, and visual ways are the most information dense and the easiest to utilize. The screen isn't going away anytime soon. Projector to me are same as screen - they've been around for as long too. Though I do look forward to direct computer-brain interface, like introducing a 6th sense.

TylerE 3y ago
The 5 senses thing is long-disproven rubbish. Humans have hundreds of senses.
- Aperocky 3y ago
  Would love to hear what the rest of those are, please be specific.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    Well, for instance, what is commonly referred to as "touch" is actually a whole bundle of senses. There's the actual sensation of pressure, but also texture, temperature, surface finish, the physical position of your various body parts, your sense of balance, etc etc.
    - paledot 3y ago
      Okay, but unless you're suggesting a computer interface based on proprioception, I'm not sure that that's relevant to the topic at hand. I too would be interested to see an enumerated list of over 100 senses.
      - TylerE 3y ago
        Isn't that what all the various VR glove type controllers are?
        albedoa 3y ago
        Can't help but notice that you again didn't answer the question. I will third the request.
        RugnirViking 3y ago
        not the parent but I posted an honest attempt at such a list on the sister comment if you're interested :)
        TylerE 3y ago
        Rather pushy demand for well after the East Coast has gone to sleep.
gizajob 3y ago
Projectors really love flat, non-moving surfaces. Will be interesting to see how they've coped with a wiggly hand wiggling around or in motion.
- thebigman433 3y ago
  I highly doubt this thing is even usable outdoors. You would need pretty insane brightness levels for this to work in the sunlight. Companies have been trying to make projects with touch input for years, and nobody has gotten close to anything resembling a consumer product, I highly doubt they achieved it here
  - gizajob 3y ago
    I agree, even though I'll reserve judgement until trying it. But it remains that limitations in power are unavoidable, and projecting a laser image onto a hand in daylight is going to use an awful lot of juice, particularly given the projector is so tiny I've no idea how this can be done so it's functional, nevermind "insanely great". Same goes for their claim that the speakers inside this tiny device are worthy of getting sound to the ears while skateboarding outdoors. You can have all the Head Related Transfer Functions in the world but again, you need speakers and amplifiers on the order of several watts to get the sound up to the ears. My iPhone Pro Max sounds great and loud in a quiet room, but take it onto the street to play music, it's barely audible. Also not sure how the device will know what kind of HRTF to use given its placement is going to vary so much.

eschneider 3y ago

Yeah, I expect that this will die a horrible death in the market, but it's definitely interesting with it's Star Trek vibe. :) The next generation of devices that incorporate some of these features might be more successful.

olyjohn 3y ago
I imagine if this company is successful, it will become quite the enterprise.
- eschneider 3y ago
  This doesn't feel like the right product for a lot of reasons. (Wait...do I have to pin it to the outside of my coat when I put that on? What's the battery life outside a coat in winter? Will it catch on my seatbelt?) Lots of practical problems for a lot of people. Still, LOTS of interesting ideas here.

ChrisLTD 3y ago

> Whether this will be the solution is unclear; the privacy/creepiness angle is still real with an outwards-facing camera. I don't think you're wrong, but it's funny that we aren't as concerned about everyone walking around with outwards-facing phone cameras.

fennecfoxy 3y ago
And especially since we can now make cameras small enough that you'd never know they were there. Even OVM6948 is commercially available, the size of a "grain of sand". I've always said that privacy is an illusion, the usual example I give is: "You're lying in bed with the curtains drawn, you see a shadow fall across the curtains that looks like a person standing outside. Do you, or do you not have privacy?" If the shadow turns out to be a person peeking through the curtains, then you don't. If the shadow turns out to be primal brain + tree shadow then you do. Schrodinger style. Privacy is probably best described (as it sometimes is) as a "sense" of privacy I guess.
niemal_dev 3y ago
Well said.
yreg 3y ago
Or microphones being present absolutely everywhere. I myself never felt like taping my camera, I feel like if someone pwned my system I would be much more worried about the leaked audio.
mainpassathome 3y ago
tbf those are usually in a pocker or down facing, with filming being an explicit and purposeful action
- ChrisLTD 3y ago
  Plenty of people are walking around, or sitting in a public place with their phone cameras facing out to the world.

vineyardmike 3y ago

First, I’m really excited people are trying new things, but I won’t be buying this just based on the demo. > The conversational interface has never worked before for many reasons, but that does not mean it cannot work in principle, …. I'm glad they're trying. Also, the laser display is neat! So I did a lot of work over the years to research voice UI/UX and I’m very skeptical about this, even with the LLM stuff. I think an LLM was missing from the Siri/alexa era to transform it from “audio cli” to “chat interface” but there’s a few reasons besides that it didn’t catch on. The information density and linearity of chat, voice especially, is a big problem. When you look at a screen, your eyes can move in 2 dimensions. You can have sidebars, you can have text fields organized in paragraphs and buttons and bars etc. Not so with chatting - when you add linearity (you can only listen to or read one thing at a time, conversation can only present one list at a time) it becomes really slow to navigate any sort of decision or menu trees. Mobile-first have simplified this of course, but it’s not enough. Reading TTS becomes even slower to find the info you care about. It’s found a place for simple controls (smarthome, media, timers, etc) and simple information retrieval (weather, announce doorbell, read last text). Then there’s the obvious problem of talking out loud in public, false response recognition etc which are necessary evils of a voice UI. I think the best hope for a voice device like this is to (as they’ve done) focus on simple experiences like “what’s I miss recently” and hope an AI can do a good enough job. The laser display might help with presenting a full menu at once (media controls being an easy example), but it probably will end up being a pain to use (eg like a worse smartwatch). Honestly though, my biggest hesitation (which could end up great) is the “pin” design. It’s novel, especially with the projector, but how heavy is it and how will that impact the comfort of my clothes? What about when wearing a jacket or scarf? Will this flop around while walking? Etc.

ttepasse 3y ago
There is also a lack of serendipity or explorability with voice: How do you know whats possible? There is a reason a GUI menu is called a menu. It not only gives you access to multiple options but also at a glance an overview what options are there, like a restaurant menu.
- esafak 3y ago

seydor 3y ago

> The idea that "the computer will disappear" is probably accurate in the long term. Why though? Computer requires attention, which pretty much rules out doing something else while using it, except perhaps when passively listening to a podcast (which doesnt really qualify as computer use). Even though we may see new mediums, the mode of interaction will remain similar to that of a book

lovepronmostly 3y ago

> It's probably a good thing if computers did a better job of getting out of the way, and stop so loudly disrupting human interactions. And that is not this. Talking out loud every few moments with verbal commands do a device is way more annoying that someone looking at and typing on a phone That said, I agree with you at a glance it's neat. I think in reality though it's a poor idea given how often people need to give a verbal command.

mptest 3y ago
The talking out loud I agree is problematic. The bluetooth functionality and increasing quality audio pass through give me hope for a simple earphone in one ear, and eventually... this: https://x.com/ruohanzhang76/status/1720525179028406492 https://x.com/ruohanzhang76/status/1720525179028406492 Also bullish on hand gesture control. Maybe most stuff will eventually become jutsu level fancy hand movements lol. What a time to be alive. It is easy to remain grateful in this age of rapid progress.

alpaca128 3y ago

The problem is the voice-based approach: it won't work reliably in loud environments, it won't be usable in a doctor's waiting room, libraries and other quiet environments, and some people simply don't like voice UIs. If you want the computer to disappear, why not a better smartwatch? Or glasses, this time without the sci-fi gadget look? Both could support the exact same featureset but with a screen.