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I find it wonderful that they are learning to live with a nice successful society that is not in a state of constant exponential growth, and they've resisted do

I find it wonderful that they are learning to live with a nice successful society that is not in a state of constant exponential growth, and they've resisted doomers and deranged neoliberal calls to keep massively expanding population. Truly a leader in sustainability, a shining beacon to the world for what is actually possible as opposed to what "experts" (aka shills for billionaires) claim to be the case.

tacker2000 3y ago
I think youre are romanticizing this far too much here. They have a massively ageing population, which is the true problem. In 2060, over 40% of the population will be pensioners requiring payouts, according to the japanese health ministry. And yes, they have low birth rates and no population growth (whether via immigration or otherwise). This is actually going to bite them at some point.
- throwawaylinux 3y ago
  I'm not "romanticizing" anything. I think you are just repeating talking points that have never really been challenged and made to stand up to scrutiny. > They have a massively ageing population, which is the true problem. The true problem is exponential growth resulting in exponential destruction of the environment, no matter how much you fiddle with the factors. People act like if we (by some unlikely miracle) get a handle on CO2 emissions that it will all be smooth sailing from then on. The sad reality is that pollution, destruction of species and habitat, and depletion of non-renewable resources, until now has been driven almost entirely by factors other than climate change. > In 2060, over 40% of the population will be pensioners requiring payouts, according to the japanese health ministry. That sounds good, good thing they have been transitioning to a sustainable society and economy rather than stacking the pyramid ever higher to delay the inevitable. You know global population is expected to level by that time then fall, right? > And yes, they have low birth rates and no population growth (whether via immigration or otherwise). This is actually going to bite them at some point. This is what the pyramid schemers (the "experts", the banks, the billionaires, the neolibs) have been crying wolf about for decades. Sure it isn't simple, but they are managing it. And it will bite everybody pretty soon. What would be nice is if, when it bites, we haven't driven societies and the environment to the absolute limit into a brick wall before that, but instead let populations in highly consuming countries naturally peak and decline, and manage that gracefully.
  - worrycue 3y ago
    You seem to be ignoring his point. An ever shrinking population of productive people (percentage-wise) is going to have to provide goods and services for an ever growing population of people who can no longer work. It’s a huge burden. Taxes will be higher - which will have all the associated consequences.
    - gloryjulio 3y ago
      The assumed burden is higher because you are trying to let the young to the shoulder the burden of the old. In Japan(or any other country tbh) the return of the tax values to the young is vastly smaller than the old. Immigration is not gonna solve this problem, that's just delaying the ponzi scheme or push the burden to the other country anyway. What if we tip the scale to young more and treat them fairer? What if we start moving some of the services to the young instead of the old?
      - kemotep 3y ago
        What does shifting the services from the old to the young actually mean?
        gloryjulio 3y ago
        > Older generations, who benefit most from fiscal redistribution (via taxes and transfers), are significantly wealthier than younger generations. Wealth poverty is significantly lower for older generations. Moreover, the wealth ratio of older to younger cohorts is relatively high in Japan compared with Germany and Italy, though lower than in the United States. The evidence thus points to significant wealth inequality across generations. https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2020/03/shrinkanomics-policy-lessons-from-japan-on-population-aging-schneider https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2020/03/shr... It's not a unique Japan problem tbf. The young people are getting shafted all over the world.
        kemotep 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

tacker2000 3y ago

I think youre are romanticizing this far too much here. They have a massively ageing population, which is the true problem. In 2060, over 40% of the population will be pensioners requiring payouts, according to the japanese health ministry. And yes, they have low birth rates and no population growth (whether via immigration or otherwise). This is actually going to bite them at some point.

throwawaylinux 3y ago
I'm not "romanticizing" anything. I think you are just repeating talking points that have never really been challenged and made to stand up to scrutiny. > They have a massively ageing population, which is the true problem. The true problem is exponential growth resulting in exponential destruction of the environment, no matter how much you fiddle with the factors. People act like if we (by some unlikely miracle) get a handle on CO2 emissions that it will all be smooth sailing from then on. The sad reality is that pollution, destruction of species and habitat, and depletion of non-renewable resources, until now has been driven almost entirely by factors other than climate change. > In 2060, over 40% of the population will be pensioners requiring payouts, according to the japanese health ministry. That sounds good, good thing they have been transitioning to a sustainable society and economy rather than stacking the pyramid ever higher to delay the inevitable. You know global population is expected to level by that time then fall, right? > And yes, they have low birth rates and no population growth (whether via immigration or otherwise). This is actually going to bite them at some point. This is what the pyramid schemers (the "experts", the banks, the billionaires, the neolibs) have been crying wolf about for decades. Sure it isn't simple, but they are managing it. And it will bite everybody pretty soon. What would be nice is if, when it bites, we haven't driven societies and the environment to the absolute limit into a brick wall before that, but instead let populations in highly consuming countries naturally peak and decline, and manage that gracefully.
- worrycue 3y ago
  You seem to be ignoring his point. An ever shrinking population of productive people (percentage-wise) is going to have to provide goods and services for an ever growing population of people who can no longer work. It’s a huge burden. Taxes will be higher - which will have all the associated consequences.
  - gloryjulio 3y ago
    The assumed burden is higher because you are trying to let the young to the shoulder the burden of the old. In Japan(or any other country tbh) the return of the tax values to the young is vastly smaller than the old. Immigration is not gonna solve this problem, that's just delaying the ponzi scheme or push the burden to the other country anyway. What if we tip the scale to young more and treat them fairer? What if we start moving some of the services to the young instead of the old?
    - kemotep 3y ago
      What does shifting the services from the old to the young actually mean?
      - gloryjulio 3y ago
        > Older generations, who benefit most from fiscal redistribution (via taxes and transfers), are significantly wealthier than younger generations. Wealth poverty is significantly lower for older generations. Moreover, the wealth ratio of older to younger cohorts is relatively high in Japan compared with Germany and Italy, though lower than in the United States. The evidence thus points to significant wealth inequality across generations. https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2020/03/shrinkanomics-policy-lessons-from-japan-on-population-aging-schneider https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2020/03/shr... It's not a unique Japan problem tbf. The young people are getting shafted all over the world.
        kemotep 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
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