6 ms·

I love Emacs (it was my main editor in the last 20 years) but i can't justify anymore to use it due to lack of modern feature, ease of use and maintenance of th

I love Emacs (it was my main editor in the last 20 years) but i can't justify anymore to use it due to lack of modern feature, ease of use and maintenance of the .emacs files. Maybe i'm getting too old to constant exercise my memory or to tinker configuration files. Nowadays i just use VSCode and occasionally nvim.

massysett 3y ago
You can use M-x customize to pick configuration options from a menu.
nequo 3y ago
What modern feature is Emacs missing?
- worthless-trash 3y ago
  I feel the comment was bait.
  - mm007emko 3y ago
    Exactly. I have been using git for my .emacs files and there is little I really miss from Emacs for editing files and even quite a lot of coding.
- wiz21c 3y ago
  - fast loading (vscode loads much faster on my computer; specially if I have a lot of open files) - code "peek" (that little windows is super useful) - good integration with debugger (again, vscode kills it here). For example: how to look a at a numpy array in emacs (in vscode there's a data viewer for that) - robust LSP (for example, when I complete a formatting string f"{... on a big file, emacs simply becomes unresponsive for a minute or so (it's much quicker ona powerful computer though); pylance is simply superior on edge cases. But although I'm a long time emacs user, there's one thngs where VSCode is much better, it's discoverability. I've learned much of what I need in 2-3 weeks, without ever looking at a manual. Note: I'm a regular emacs user since since about 10 years (I came for the freedom, stayed for the community). I'm using VSCode since about a year. I'll be happy to ear a way to make my emacs better.
  - natrys 3y ago
    Doom Emacs loads very fast so theoretically it's possible to configure Emacs to be fast too (mine starts in a second, cold start is a little slower). But I think most people don't care about it enough because they either never close Emacs and/or use it in server-mode where emacsclient is pretty much instantaneous. Can I ask why you don't like doing that?
    - wiz21c 3y ago
      Because I conserve energy: I turn my PC off at the end of each session (so about one/two times a day). And because the "sleep" mode is not reliable (I have a 14 years old PC, upgraded in RAM and GPU and SDD; and here I conserve hardware). So having things take time on start up is an annoyance to me (but I live with it, I was just saying that emacs is slower than VSCode)
      - hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
        So your point is that emacs is slow on slow hardware? I’m sure vscode would chew through resources during a heavy session, have you benchmarked more than just the startup of the application?
        wiz21c 3y ago
        my overall feeling on my own (slow) PC is that VSCode is faster on load (or, to be exact, I perceive it be to be faster) and provides a few features that I don't have on emacs. You're right: once VSCode is in memory I think it uses more of it. But that's barely nothing when compared to rust-analyzer (which emacs LSP uses too).
    - phforms 3y ago
      I use Doom Emacs with the Yamamoto port of Emacs [1] on MacOS (M1) and the startup time is quite slow: it takes around 6-7 sec. for the editor window to show up. It doesn’t bother me too much since I usually start it once a day and just never close it, as you mentioned. However, I also have many plugins installed, so it might be just that. I wonder if it is possible to install a separate instance of Emacs, then I would be able to test the performance without all the plugins and configuration. [1]: https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
derekzhouzhen 3y ago
> maintenance of the .emacs files What maintenance? I have not changed a single line of my .emacs file for 3 years.
- gumbojuice 3y ago
  [dead]
- rurban 3y ago
  I have to admit, I added a couple of lines since 1995. About 10 or so
  - jks 3y ago
    I changed from .emacs to .emacs.d/init.el when it became possible, because that seems neater. Some years later I decided to see what fancy packages the young folks like, and started using vertico, orderless, marginalia, embark, and consult. I'm still going to reserve judgment on embark and consult, but at least the first three packages are certainly great additions.
- lmedinas 3y ago
  if your .emacs has 10 LOC it makes it definitely easy. My .emacs is ±360 LOC.
  - derekzhouzhen 3y ago
    My point is: the api of of emacs is fairly stable. And your point is? I have ~80 lines outside the customize variable block added by emacs. Nothing too fancy but there are a few hot keys and functions that I can't live without.
submeta 3y ago
In the same boat. Still like it a lot, but I started using VS Code for serious coding. But unpopular opinion here. So expect to get downvoted a lot. Edit: The unpopular opinion is to say that one has stopped tinkering with Emacs for hours and started using a tool like VS Code or intelliJ to do actual coding work.
- jeltz 3y ago
  VS Code is extremely popular here do I have no idea what you are talking about.
  - submeta 3y ago
    Relax, we‘re talking about an editor, not someone‘s religion.
    - gpderetta 3y ago
      Blasphemy! Repent and join the Church of Emacs!
    - jeltz 3y ago
      Is what I should say to you since you were involved in the editor war while I was not. I have not even said anything on this topic other than that there are tons of VS Code users here so the "unpopular opinion" makes zero sense and just feels like you were being rude to Emacs users (of which I am not one). I downvoted you because you were doing editor warring.
- User23 3y ago
  IntelliJ is lightyears ahead of VS Code or any other LSP using editor including Emacs for what it’s good at, namely working with Java in complex ways. I will use IntelliJ or Eclipse over Emacs or VS Code for Java development any day. But having used both VS Code and Doom Emacs for other development, the latter is quicker, more featureful, and more discoverable, just as easy to configure, and more extensible.
- anta40 3y ago
jackcviers3 3y ago
Modern features: 1. lsp-mode/eglot 2. package management 3. treesitter grammars 4. Portability - win/linux/mac/unix/android 5. Graphical User Interface - you can browse the web and watch YouTube in Emacs. Customize has buttons, forms, menus. 6. Treemacs/Treeview/speedbar: you know the multipanel view in Intellij or the project explorer in Intellij/vscod? Yeah, that. 7. Actual macros and function definitions, without needing to post them as an extension. 8. Interactive repl. 9. 5 different terminal emulators built-in. 10. Automated fuzzy everything with helm-M-x and helm. Exactly like Command-p in vscode. 11. github, gitlab integration with magit. 12. Copilot, tabnine, and chatGPT integration. 13. Hundreds of themes. 14. We've had shareable, secure remote collaboration for over a decade with wemux. 15. Use any ttf. 16. Mouse editing and command binding. 17. Use every build tool with projectile-compile-project. 18. Refactoring with lsp. 19. Autocompletion and jump to source. 20. Session save and restoration with desktop-save. 21. Slack integration. 22. Debugger with dap-mode. 23. Individual test only runs with dap and avy-lens. 24. blame with.magit-blame. 25. Pixel scrolling. 25. Transparency with seethru. 28. Rest client with variables and session storage (like postman, but free). 29. Browse compressed files as if they are normal directories and save to them. 30. Containerized deployment via flatpak. 31. Docker, docker-compose integration, kubernetes, aws, datadog, Azure integrations... All of this fits in around 500 lones of copy_paste/cloneable emacs configuration, most of which is use-package declarations. Nary a defun or global-bind-key in sight, and because emacs is a full elisp ide, and it is actually executable code, it's debuggable on launch, unlike myriads of json files. I'm trying to think of anything else that can possibly be interpreted as 'modern' from a ux standpoint. I certainly can't think of a feature that Intellij has that emacs doesn't that is core to the ide experience. And most of my emacs tools are better than the vscode version of them, at least in terms of invasion into the editor buffer or integration with the editor ux. The one thing that's not modern is the standard copy and paste commands, but that's super easy to customize. I guess you can't drag and drop buffer frame borders in multiple buffer layouts if you hide scrollbars, and the message buffer isn't resizable...
- shadowgovt 3y ago
  But vscode has basically all of it out of the box. Maybe after installing one or two extensions, which it recommends for you and you can install via a GUI. As someone who uses emacs most often: VSCode is shaped a lot more closely to a modern aesthetic by default. If you've been following along with emacs all this time and keep up to date with the latest changes, you can easily accrete the configuration to make your emacs look like a modern tool, but it doesn't start configured that way.
rvdginste 3y ago
I am a long-time Emacs user and used to maintain my own config, but I switched to Doom Emacs [1] a year ago. Doom Emacs is like a pre-packaged/pre-configured emacs distro. You still need to configure the features that you want to use, but it's a lot easier (and faster) than having to do everything from scratch, and definitely if you already have some emacs background anyway. For me, it makes the newer, more advanced, features more accessible. Since switching, I started to use Emacs more again. [1] https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs
- lmedinas 3y ago
  i tried Doom Emacs and the first thing that turned me down was the VI bindings, which i disabled right after install. But yeah it does the whole configuration nightmare more easy to maintain.

massysett 3y ago

You can use M-x customize to pick configuration options from a menu.

nequo 3y ago

What modern feature is Emacs missing?

worthless-trash 3y ago
I feel the comment was bait.
- mm007emko 3y ago
  Exactly. I have been using git for my .emacs files and there is little I really miss from Emacs for editing files and even quite a lot of coding.
wiz21c 3y ago
- fast loading (vscode loads much faster on my computer; specially if I have a lot of open files) - code "peek" (that little windows is super useful) - good integration with debugger (again, vscode kills it here). For example: how to look a at a numpy array in emacs (in vscode there's a data viewer for that) - robust LSP (for example, when I complete a formatting string f"{... on a big file, emacs simply becomes unresponsive for a minute or so (it's much quicker ona powerful computer though); pylance is simply superior on edge cases. But although I'm a long time emacs user, there's one thngs where VSCode is much better, it's discoverability. I've learned much of what I need in 2-3 weeks, without ever looking at a manual. Note: I'm a regular emacs user since since about 10 years (I came for the freedom, stayed for the community). I'm using VSCode since about a year. I'll be happy to ear a way to make my emacs better.
- natrys 3y ago
  Doom Emacs loads very fast so theoretically it's possible to configure Emacs to be fast too (mine starts in a second, cold start is a little slower). But I think most people don't care about it enough because they either never close Emacs and/or use it in server-mode where emacsclient is pretty much instantaneous. Can I ask why you don't like doing that?
  - wiz21c 3y ago
    Because I conserve energy: I turn my PC off at the end of each session (so about one/two times a day). And because the "sleep" mode is not reliable (I have a 14 years old PC, upgraded in RAM and GPU and SDD; and here I conserve hardware). So having things take time on start up is an annoyance to me (but I live with it, I was just saying that emacs is slower than VSCode)
    - hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
      So your point is that emacs is slow on slow hardware? I’m sure vscode would chew through resources during a heavy session, have you benchmarked more than just the startup of the application?
      - wiz21c 3y ago
        my overall feeling on my own (slow) PC is that VSCode is faster on load (or, to be exact, I perceive it be to be faster) and provides a few features that I don't have on emacs. You're right: once VSCode is in memory I think it uses more of it. But that's barely nothing when compared to rust-analyzer (which emacs LSP uses too).
  - phforms 3y ago
    I use Doom Emacs with the Yamamoto port of Emacs [1] on MacOS (M1) and the startup time is quite slow: it takes around 6-7 sec. for the editor window to show up. It doesn’t bother me too much since I usually start it once a day and just never close it, as you mentioned. However, I also have many plugins installed, so it might be just that. I wonder if it is possible to install a separate instance of Emacs, then I would be able to test the performance without all the plugins and configuration. [1]: https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

derekzhouzhen 3y ago

> maintenance of the .emacs files What maintenance? I have not changed a single line of my .emacs file for 3 years.

gumbojuice 3y ago
[dead]
rurban 3y ago
I have to admit, I added a couple of lines since 1995. About 10 or so
- jks 3y ago
  I changed from .emacs to .emacs.d/init.el when it became possible, because that seems neater. Some years later I decided to see what fancy packages the young folks like, and started using vertico, orderless, marginalia, embark, and consult. I'm still going to reserve judgment on embark and consult, but at least the first three packages are certainly great additions.
lmedinas 3y ago
if your .emacs has 10 LOC it makes it definitely easy. My .emacs is ±360 LOC.
- derekzhouzhen 3y ago
  My point is: the api of of emacs is fairly stable. And your point is? I have ~80 lines outside the customize variable block added by emacs. Nothing too fancy but there are a few hot keys and functions that I can't live without.

submeta 3y ago

In the same boat. Still like it a lot, but I started using VS Code for serious coding. But unpopular opinion here. So expect to get downvoted a lot. Edit: The unpopular opinion is to say that one has stopped tinkering with Emacs for hours and started using a tool like VS Code or intelliJ to do actual coding work.

jeltz 3y ago
VS Code is extremely popular here do I have no idea what you are talking about.
- submeta 3y ago
  Relax, we‘re talking about an editor, not someone‘s religion.
  - gpderetta 3y ago
    Blasphemy! Repent and join the Church of Emacs!
  - jeltz 3y ago
    Is what I should say to you since you were involved in the editor war while I was not. I have not even said anything on this topic other than that there are tons of VS Code users here so the "unpopular opinion" makes zero sense and just feels like you were being rude to Emacs users (of which I am not one). I downvoted you because you were doing editor warring.
User23 3y ago
IntelliJ is lightyears ahead of VS Code or any other LSP using editor including Emacs for what it’s good at, namely working with Java in complex ways. I will use IntelliJ or Eclipse over Emacs or VS Code for Java development any day. But having used both VS Code and Doom Emacs for other development, the latter is quicker, more featureful, and more discoverable, just as easy to configure, and more extensible.
anta40 3y ago

jackcviers3 3y ago

Modern features: 1. lsp-mode/eglot 2. package management 3. treesitter grammars 4. Portability - win/linux/mac/unix/android 5. Graphical User Interface - you can browse the web and watch YouTube in Emacs. Customize has buttons, forms, menus. 6. Treemacs/Treeview/speedbar: you know the multipanel view in Intellij or the project explorer in Intellij/vscod? Yeah, that. 7. Actual macros and function definitions, without needing to post them as an extension. 8. Interactive repl. 9. 5 different terminal emulators built-in. 10. Automated fuzzy everything with helm-M-x and helm. Exactly like Command-p in vscode. 11. github, gitlab integration with magit. 12. Copilot, tabnine, and chatGPT integration. 13. Hundreds of themes. 14. We've had shareable, secure remote collaboration for over a decade with wemux. 15. Use any ttf. 16. Mouse editing and command binding. 17. Use every build tool with projectile-compile-project. 18. Refactoring with lsp. 19. Autocompletion and jump to source. 20. Session save and restoration with desktop-save. 21. Slack integration. 22. Debugger with dap-mode. 23. Individual test only runs with dap and avy-lens. 24. blame with.magit-blame. 25. Pixel scrolling. 25. Transparency with seethru. 28. Rest client with variables and session storage (like postman, but free). 29. Browse compressed files as if they are normal directories and save to them. 30. Containerized deployment via flatpak. 31. Docker, docker-compose integration, kubernetes, aws, datadog, Azure integrations... All of this fits in around 500 lones of copy_paste/cloneable emacs configuration, most of which is use-package declarations. Nary a defun or global-bind-key in sight, and because emacs is a full elisp ide, and it is actually executable code, it's debuggable on launch, unlike myriads of json files. I'm trying to think of anything else that can possibly be interpreted as 'modern' from a ux standpoint. I certainly can't think of a feature that Intellij has that emacs doesn't that is core to the ide experience. And most of my emacs tools are better than the vscode version of them, at least in terms of invasion into the editor buffer or integration with the editor ux. The one thing that's not modern is the standard copy and paste commands, but that's super easy to customize. I guess you can't drag and drop buffer frame borders in multiple buffer layouts if you hide scrollbars, and the message buffer isn't resizable...

shadowgovt 3y ago
But vscode has basically all of it out of the box. Maybe after installing one or two extensions, which it recommends for you and you can install via a GUI. As someone who uses emacs most often: VSCode is shaped a lot more closely to a modern aesthetic by default. If you've been following along with emacs all this time and keep up to date with the latest changes, you can easily accrete the configuration to make your emacs look like a modern tool, but it doesn't start configured that way.

rvdginste 3y ago

I am a long-time Emacs user and used to maintain my own config, but I switched to Doom Emacs [1] a year ago. Doom Emacs is like a pre-packaged/pre-configured emacs distro. You still need to configure the features that you want to use, but it's a lot easier (and faster) than having to do everything from scratch, and definitely if you already have some emacs background anyway. For me, it makes the newer, more advanced, features more accessible. Since switching, I started to use Emacs more again. [1] https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs

lmedinas 3y ago
i tried Doom Emacs and the first thing that turned me down was the VI bindings, which i disabled right after install. But yeah it does the whole configuration nightmare more easy to maintain.